Elon Musk plans US - UK war in 2025

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

No, when a schoolboy does it he's playing wargames or (in the not so distant past) doing a Faulty Towers or Allo Allo impression, or just mocking the Nazis like pretty much everyone who actually fought them and their children did. There is literally nothing to punish unless he was deliberately using it to try and intimate or upset someone, which I've never seen happen in person. Again, intent and context are everything.

This is partly a transatlantic miscommunication.

In Canada/the US the socially acceptable use of Nazi slogans, symbols, etc. is really quite circumscribed. If you're Charlie Chaplin or Mel Brooks and it is very obviously skewering Nazis, then it's all good. In pretty much every other circumstance, including jokes, it's generally best to steer clear. You would absolutely get in trouble throwing a Sieg Heil in a classroom even if you claim your intention was to denigrate Nazis. It's generally something that's not hard to avoid and not much is lost because of it. I wouldn't change the norms around it, since this approach makes it quite hard for ill-intentioned Nazi sympathizers to use it maliciously (which indeed does happen - there are annual skinhead marches in my city, you can find 1000 videos online of people doing the salute at holocaust memorials, etc.)

I suspect that Musk intentionally contrived a circumstance where he could do a Nazi salute on stage at a political rally with some small degree of plausible deniability. I wholeheartedly agree that context is rather important.

My point, which I thought I clearly stated, is that I don't know what was going on. I find the idea that he was completely oblivious to it plausible, as he has lived an entire life playing the role of an intelligent man with some pretty remarkable blind spots. It is in keeping with his past actions. I find the idea plausible that he wanted to create something that, if you squint a bit and focus entirely on the arm, resembles a Nazi salute enough to make the usual suspects very excitable. I find the idea that he genuinely thought it was a Nazi salute extremely unlikely... firstly because why? And also because in the alternate universe where he wanted to do a Nazi salute he would do a far better one.

I wonder if you watched the video or only saw the headlines? It would be a rather bizarre coincidence to throw an outstretched right arm from your heart to the top right not once, but twice.

I agree it was no accident.

There are a handful of plausible motives.

Musk loves the AfD. Giving a Hitler salute on national television lets a certain group of people know that he's their voice in government. You refrain from also yelling "heil hitler" to create the sliver of deniability needed for those sympathetic to Musk and Trump to implausibly say it was just a seizure or something.

Musk loves controversy and provocation. Doing a Hitler salute is profoundly offensive and near-universally reviled, but in the current political environment enough pundits will claim it didn't happen even after we all saw it to create the sort of endless stupid controversy Musk seems to love.

Either of these seem more likely to me than Musk making the world's weirdest mistake twice.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

This is a bit random, but may I ask why the Nazis in particular, their symbols, their ways, and their leader are singled out to be banned in every way shape or form, while the USSR, it's symbols, its ways, and its leaders are ignored? If someone makes a Nazi joke it's evil, but if someone makes a joke about Stalin or mid 20th-century Russia it's funny. Aren't they both evil? Why aren't they treated that way?

I don't mean that we shouldn't frown up the former, I just wonder why we have a double standard and don't treat anything quite like the Nazi party, even when such organizations as the USSR killed millions more and ought to be treated similarly.

Western powers never fought the Soviet's directly and so their atrocities and symbols get relatively less attention (but are still widely discussed). It's a bit of a Fox News fever dream to think that mainstream Western culture doesn't heavily condemn Soviet atrocities.

Many of these symbols are in fact culturally verboten. Only very fringe groups directly associate with images of Stalin, for example. The hammer & sickle has a meaning that is broader and older than Soviet totalitarianism, but is still generally used sparingly and only by those hoping to demonstrate that their views are way beyond the mainstream.

In America there was a long period of overreaction to "communist" symbols that ended up targeting peaceful socialists, the labour movement, etc. That widely recognized overreaction gives folks today some breathing room to use Soviet-ish symbols that, I agree, should probably be retired.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Also probably worth noting that your country does not in fact ban Nazi symbols.

They also aren't banned in Canada, but it would be very easy to run afoul of hate speech codes if you used them willy-nilly

[CaptainFritz28]

Also probably worth noting that your country does not in fact ban Nazi symbols.

They also aren't banned in Canada, but it would be very easy to run afoul of hate speech codes if you used them willy-nilly

Yeah, I don't mean by law.

[CaptainFritz28]

This is a bit random, but may I ask why the Nazis in particular, their symbols, their ways, and their leader are singled out to be banned in every way shape or form, while the USSR, it's symbols, its ways, and its leaders are ignored? If someone makes a Nazi joke it's evil, but if someone makes a joke about Stalin or mid 20th-century Russia it's funny. Aren't they both evil? Why aren't they treated that way?

I don't mean that we shouldn't frown up the former, I just wonder why we have a double standard and don't treat anything quite like the Nazi party, even when such organizations as the USSR killed millions more and ought to be treated similarly.

Western powers never fought the Soviet's directly and so their atrocities and symbols get relatively less attention (but are still widely discussed). It's a bit of a Fox News fever dream to think that mainstream Western culture doesn't heavily condemn Soviet atrocities.

I mean that in popular culture, if one makes a joke about Stalin or USSR commies, people laugh and it's no problem. If you make a joke about Hitler or the Nazis, it's hate speech. Our culture may condemn their actions, but it treats them entirely separately.

Many of these symbols are in fact culturally verboten. Only very fringe groups directly associate with images of Stalin, for example. The hammer & sickle has a meaning that is broader and older than Soviet totalitarianism, but is still generally used sparingly and only by those hoping to demonstrate that their views are way beyond the mainstream.

The swastika also has a meaning that is broader and older than Nazi fascism, but it is never used, and if it is used by those meaning the old sense, it's still highly questioned if not cancelled outright.

And yeah, people aren't likely to associate with Stalin, but if someone does there's a lot less backlash than if they associate with Hitler.

In America there was a long period of overreaction to "communist" symbols that ended up targeting peaceful socialists, the labour movement, etc. That widely recognized overreaction gives folks today some breathing room to use Soviet-ish symbols that, I agree, should probably be retired.

I imagine this is probably the reason, now that I think about it more. When something is seen as the greatest evil, and that is later somewhat pulled back to just be something bad, people joke about it. Who knows, maybe in 50 years people will talk about Nazis like they do now about Soviets. (sigh)

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I guess I don't really share the intuition that a Nazi joke and a Soviet joke aren't broadly treated similarly — maybe we run in different circles. I happen to live in a part of Canada with many people who fled the USSR.

A Holocaust joke and a Holodomor joke seem about on par. It's very dark humour that might work for a certain audience, but would risk profound offense depending who you're talking to. It is evidently not a "hate crime" in the sense that such jokes are made all the time and on mainstream shows (e.g., Family Guy).

One reason for there potentially being extra offense from a Nazi joke is that there is still a fringe of white supremacisst/neo Nazis in the West who really do occasionally commit violent crimes against minorities. A joke about Nazism/Hitler might be seen to downplay the badness of these groups and be perceived to increase the risks to those they target. While you can find some dummies here brandishing a hammer and sickle flag, I don't think any Ukrainians in Canada feel like those folks pose any threat of starving them again.

[Jamiet99uk]

If you want to know whether this was a real Nazi salute or not, just look at the German newspaper coverage.

German newspapers such as Die Zeit covered the story, but were unable to print the picture of Elon Musk performing the Nazi salute because in Germany it is illegal to publish pictures of Nazi salutes.

That tells you what they think of this cunt in Germany now.

[Octavious]

That just tells you what we already know. There is room for doubt. If you live in a country where it is illegal to show a Nazi salute (which is ridiculous) and there is a genuine debate about whether or not something is a Nazi salute (which despite the fact I personally believe it is bollocks, it is obvious that others are genuine when they say they think it is one) then you don't show it. This isn't adding anything new to the argument other than an acknowledgement of Germany's nonsensical laws.

There are plenty of views on all sides of the argument. The American based Anti-Defamation League have given their view that it isn't (quote from The Jerusalem Post)

“It seems that Elon Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute,” the Anti-Defamation League wrote Monday in a statement on Musk’s own social media platform X, referring to Musk’s outstretched-arm movement that came as he was thanking his supporters.

The ADL added, “In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning.”

British political response has been appropriately muted for such a ridiculous media circus issue, but one notable exception was the leader of the Workers Party of Britain (fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, typically getting around the same number of votes as Plaid Cymru and Sinn Féin, and occasionally threatening to win an MP. They are the 6th largest non-regional UK party and seen as hard left). He (George Galloway) said this

Elon Musk has many faults and has made many mistakes. The accusation that on the world's biggest stage yesterday he did three Hitler salutes is absurd and cheapens the currency around real fascists and Nazis #ElonMusk

This is not an isolated voice by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not saying this in an attempt to promote a particular narrative about the subject, but to underline the fact that this is not as a clear cut as some are trying to make out

[Jamiet99uk]

The Anti-Defamation League was originally established with good intentions, but in recent years has become an Israeli government front organisation dedicated to promoting the concept of "New Antisemitism", wherein any cricitism of the Israeli government is automatically branded anti-semitic.

They are presumably comfortable with Israel's emerging role as one of the leading centres of international ultra-fascism.

I don't very much care what they think.

[Jamiet99uk]

(Which is a shame, as their founder, Sigmund Livingston, was a great advocate for tolerance and peace).

[Octavious]

The Anti-Defamation League was originally established with good intentions, but in recent years has become an Israeli government front organisation dedicated to promoting the concept of "New Antisemitism", wherein any cricitism of the Israeli government is automatically branded anti-semitic.

They are presumably comfortable with Israel's emerging role as one of the leading centres of international ultra-fascism.

I don't very much care what they think.

They are not without faults, certainly, but they remain a significant voice against antisemitism and a voice that has been critical of Musk and his relaxation of moderation on X. They are not exactly Musk fan boys

I also find it extremely difficult to imagine them not calling out a Nazi salute if they genuinely thought it was one

[Jamiet99uk]

To be fair Octavious I would not necessarily expect you to know the detailed current positions of the Anti-Defamation league, but there we go.

More surprised you're interested in George Galloway's ramblings.

I know that there has been a "discussion" about Musk's true intentions. I am very clear what I saw. He did a Nazi salute, which came only weeks after endorsing an ultra-right political party which includes a significant Neo-Nazi element.

It would take some very clear statements and actions by Musk to change my mind at this point - and he does not have a good track record in that regard.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

The lengths Oct goes to hide in a comfortable "uncertainty" are odd.

Musk does a straight arm heart to sky salute twice on TV, but I guess unless he sends Oct a personal letter on Tesla letterhead saying "yeah it was a Nazi salute" then it didn't happen.

Trump calls up an election official demanding he "find the votes", but that's just a unique turn of phrase and not an illegal request to invent vote counts. Maybe if Trump himself writes about it in his memoir Oct would change his mind, but until then a sliver of doubt means absolutely no judgements can be made.

I just kind of doubt it's an evidentiary standard that applies to anything else in Oct's life. I still wonder whether he watched the video or is just reacting to the headlines and just knee-jerk thinking those darn lefties are lying again. An outstretched arm literally thrown from heart to the sky twice, it's so freaking bizarre to say "well that could have been anything".

[Jamiet99uk]

Yet on the other side, if it's someone Oct supports, the "general direction of the truth" is sufficient.

[CaptainFritz28]

Random observation: I find it funny how much people's political viewpoint biases them to blindness of one thing or another. Even here no one is exempt (including myself).

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Random observation: I find it funny how much people's political viewpoint biases them to blindness of one thing or another. Even here no one is exempt (including myself).

My gut reaction upon seeing the headlines was that they were exaggerated or wrong. I remember well the "good people on both sides" lie perpetuated by many mainstream outlets and, like Oct, I am profoundly suspicious about the accuracy of reporting on Trump and Co., which is incredibly biased (and for what reason? There are enough actual crazy things to report on, why make things up?)

I've voted for both major parties in Canadian elections.

And I agree our politics absolutely colours our perception of events.

But, like, there's a full length video. With all the appropriate context. It's right there. It doesn't require a journalistic slant. We can't know Musk's intent. But to argue it wasn't intentional you have to think it's possible to mistakenly make an extremely specific salute twice on accident. It was not a nonchalant wave, but a straight armed salute. I'm perplexed by what physiological assumptions must behind of such a claim — "he's awkward" or "he's autistic" doesn't really explain how nearly everyone else avoids such accidents.

[Octavious]

Everyone else avoids such accidents by not making highly emotional and stressful speeches in front of loads of people. There's no mystery here. The equivalent of this kind of event is only experienced by the likes of us when giving the best man's speech at a wedding and similar rare events. Now, if you compare like with like and examine best man's speeches you will find rather a lot of strange incidents, gestures, and incredibly poorly chosen jokes because that is what people in those situations do. Especially people who are naturally awkward like Musk. It is normal. It is human. Most of us are not highly trained politicians or polished Holywood actors.

The lengths Oct goes to hide in a comfortable "uncertainty" are odd.

You find someone producing solid evidence to support their point odd? Then I genuinely struggle to understand how you intend to have a useful conversation on any issue. Honestly, this is by the strangest thing I think you've said on any topic.

Trump calls up an election official demanding he "find the votes", but that's just a unique turn of phrase and not an illegal request to invent vote counts

Not wishing to dwell too much on old issues, but how is it a unique turn of phrase? If I believed that the votes had been miscounted and there were potentially thousands out there that hadn't been counted, "find the votes" is pretty much exactly what I'd say. Is pretty much exactly what I'd expect anyone to say. What exactly would you expect them to say instead?

Random observation: I find it funny how much people's political viewpoint biases them to blindness of one thing or another. Even here no one is exempt (including myself).

Have you considered that you have cause and effect backwards? People observe the world and interpret it based on their own judgement and experiences, and then lean towards politics that reflect how they see the world? Or at least lean away from politicians who repeatedly say things that sound like utter bollocks to them?

But, without wishing to repeat myself too often, I am not a Trump supporter and have actively disliked Musk since the Thai cave incident

More surprised you're interested in George Galloway's ramblings.

I've been vaguely interested in him ever since his Senate speech back in 2005.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Everyone else avoids such accidents by not making highly emotional and stressful speeches in front of loads of people. There's no mystery here. The equivalent of this kind of event is only experienced by the likes of us when giving the best man's speech at a wedding and similar rare events. Now, if you compare like with like and examine best man's speeches you will find rather a lot of strange incidents, gestures, and incredibly poorly chosen jokes because that is what people in those situations do. Especially people who are naturally awkward like Musk. It is normal. It is human. Most of us are not highly trained politicians or polished Holywood actors.

My own wedding is coming up in the fall. I'll make sure to strap my best man's arm to his torso to ensure no accidental Seig Heils are thrown during his speech. Utterly ridiculous but whatever.

[Octavious]

Are you saying that you don't think, even as we speak, there are weddings going on where the best man is about to attempt a poorly judged Musk parody where his heart goes out to the room?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Are you saying that you don't think, even as we speak, there are weddings going on where the best man is about to attempt a poorly judged Musk parody where his heart goes out to the room?

In that context I'd find a Sieg Heil rather funny, quite unlike doing it at a political rally.