Why did you vote for Trump?

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Esquire Bertissimmo
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#41 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:16 am
What do you define as being wrong with "leftism" ?
In Canada the left is no longer a working-class movement.

The Liberal and NDP parties have been co-opted by elites who deny their privilege. These parties draw their energy from highly educated, top 20% earners with secure professional or government jobs. They dismiss their advantages by pointing to a few ultra-wealthy conservatives, pretending these outliers somehow offset their own privilege.

They claim to be compassionate, but their policies often just shift burdens from one disadvantaged group to another. For instance, they argue it’s wrong to impose expectations on the homeless, so they allow encampments and open drug use to ruin safety in low-income neighbourhoods they don't live in, on public transit lines they don't take, and in liquor stores they don't work at. They love the idea of a safe injection site, because they can be certain one will never be built near their house.

Their go-to solution for every social problem is expanding government jobs—positions they and their peers disproportionately fill. Addressing Indigenous issues? Hire more mostly-white, master’s-educated bureaucrats in Indigenous Affairs. Tackling mental health? Expand the army of PhD therapists. Nevermind that past relentless expansions of this nature haven't produced any meaningful results.

They indulge magical thinking about the economy that reliably serves their own interests at the expense of the working class. Raising the minimum wage improves public-sector union bargaining power but hurts job prospects for the youngest and least-skilled workers. Rent controls benefit established middle-income renters but reduce the availability and quality of housing for low-income tenants and prospective renters.

And their "generous" public spending? It's almost always disproportionately geared towards those who are solidly middle class. And it's always deficit-financed, since they have no policies that actually expand the tax base and they're too cowardly to actually raise taxes.

They put an inordinate focus on issues that barely matter to the working poor. Giving DEI government jobs to the well educated children of affluent Nigerian and Korean immigrants unsurprisingly doesn't feel like a victory for the average working class person of colour. Subsidies for luxury electric vehicles feel more like an upper-middle class handout rather than some big climate win that will help the poor.

Ultimately they don't really care when these policies fail to improve the lot of poor people, because they already gained materially as a class and got to feel like they were being compassionate in the process. Worse still, if poor people notice these policies aren't helping and vote for some other party, the left elite denigrates them as ignoramuses "voting against their own interests". It's gotten so bad that they write off entire swathes of the country as backwards and unenlightened.

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#42 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:38 pm

A lot of things to unpick here.
Give me a day or two and I will respond to both the Captain and the Esquire.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#43 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Fri Nov 29, 2024 8:16 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:38 pm
A lot of things to unpick here.
Give me a day or two and I will respond to both the Captain and the Esquire.
In that case I should probably pre-empt a few criticisms.

I consider myself on the left because I believe in using the state to radically improve the prospects of the poor. My critique of the Canadian left is that they have largely abandoned this goal, clinging instead to ideological dogmas that consistently undermine meaningful progress. My critique of the Canadian left is categorically not an endorsement of its Conservative party, which is likewise ideologically constrained and fundamental uninterested in supporting the working class.

If the left truly care about improving prospects for the poor, the need to champion the most cost-effective and impactful policies to support them.

The left should majorly prioritize direct income transfers, which are almost always a better way to improve the prospects of marginalized people than relentlessly expanding government bureaucracies to deliver services (at a high cost and with low quality).

The left should stop clinging to policies that reliably fail to help the poor just because they appear to punish the "greedy". Even if it means adopting measures that benefit some wealthy people, the left should embrace policies that foster economic growth, increase labor demand, drive productivity and wage growth, and expand the resources available for redistribution.

The left needs to be willing to look critically at the performance of public services and be able to make a credible threat to alter funding or the method of delivery where services are objectively failing (e.g., when medical wait times in Canada far exceed those seen in other publicly-funded systems in OECD countries). The left cannot be seen as *always* taking the side of public sector unions or always defaulting to the idea that we're just one funding increase away from achieving efficient and high quality public services.

Finally, the left needs to stay laser-focused on addressing class disparities. This means resisting pressures from both the left and right to prioritize identity categories, which are far less reliable indicators of disadvantage.

There is unfortunately no real political force behind these idea in Canada. Maybe Andrew Yang is making these arguments in the States, but they're clearly unpopular.

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#44 Post by jamesweb » Sat Nov 30, 2024 5:05 am

The top reasons for Trump seem pretty clear: inflation was crushing people's budgets, immigration concerns were high, and voters felt Harris was disconnected from working class issues. Those +24 and +23 numbers on inflation and immigration aren't minor - they're massive signals about voter frustration. The cultural issues critique (+17) also shows people wanted practical solutions, not culture war debates.

The poll suggests this wasn't just about Trump being Trump, but about real economic anxiety and border security concerns. Interesting that these feelings cut across demographic lines too - Black and Latino voters shared similar top concerns."

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#45 Post by Octavious » Mon Dec 02, 2024 11:38 am

Would you believe it? It turns out that when Biden was was saying that he wouldn't pardon his son as that's a clear abuse of his office that would show that the elites consider themselves above the law, what he actually meant was that doing so is a prudent and responsible use of presidential power.

If anyone is looking for more reasons why people didn't vote Democrat, this is as clear a piece of evidence as you can ask for to show that they don't come close to occupying a moral high ground. Trump may not have deserved to win, but the Democrats definitely deserved to lose.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#46 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:23 pm

The Presidential pardon should not exist. It is inherently corrupt. Nobody should be above the law.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#47 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:07 pm

Okay Esquire Bert, here we go with a detailed reply as promised.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
In Canada the left is no longer a working-class movement.

The Liberal and NDP parties have been co-opted by elites who deny their privilege. These parties draw their energy from highly educated, top 20% earners with secure professional or government jobs. They dismiss their advantages by pointing to a few ultra-wealthy conservatives, pretending these outliers somehow offset their own privilege.
As I read this opening paragraph, I sense we may be about to agree on some things. I am a socialist; for this very reason I do not support the Labour Party in the UK. They are not a socialist party. They are a centrist party with a slightly more socially progressive approach than those on the right, but they offer no meaningful progress or change, only tinkering around the edges, and they are fundamentally opposed to major social or economic reform. I equate being "on the left" with support for socialism.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
They claim to be compassionate, but their policies often just shift burdens from one disadvantaged group to another. For instance, they argue it’s wrong to impose expectations on the homeless, so they allow encampments and open drug use to ruin safety in low-income neighbourhoods they don't live in, on public transit lines they don't take, and in liquor stores they don't work at. They love the idea of a safe injection site, because they can be certain one will never be built near their house.
This is clearly a very specific issue that, I assume, is the subject of debate in Canada.
Without having researched Canadian homelessness policies, one thing about what you say in your example stood out to me:

"They allow encampments"

Promoting homeless encampments is not a very progressive / left-wing / socialist policy. Homeless people shouldn't be living in tents. The way to seriously reduce homelessness is to provide more social housing (i.e. housing built by the state, available at a low rent), to improve the provision of temporary accommodation for people in short-term homelessness, and to provide genuine support to homeless people with drug addictions, mental health issues, and other problems.

As for drug use, well, you wouldn't have people in encampments openly abusing drugs, if the encampments weren't there. So providing real solutions to get people into proper housing would also reduce the "open drug use" problem.

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
Their go-to solution for every social problem is expanding government jobs—positions they and their peers disproportionately fill. Addressing Indigenous issues? Hire more mostly-white, master’s-educated bureaucrats in Indigenous Affairs. Tackling mental health? Expand the army of PhD therapists. Nevermind that past relentless expansions of this nature haven't produced any meaningful results.
I agree that if "Indigenous Affairs" programmes are mostly staffed by middle-class white people, that is a problem.

I do not necessarily agree that funding the provision of well-qualified, highly-skilled therapists to provide mental health care is a bad idea. Tell me what you would do to tackle mental health issues?
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
They indulge magical thinking about the economy that reliably serves their own interests at the expense of the working class. Raising the minimum wage improves public-sector union bargaining power but hurts job prospects for the youngest and least-skilled workers. Rent controls benefit established middle-income renters but reduce the availability and quality of housing for low-income tenants and prospective renters.
Here I think I disagree. I am strongly in favour of having a minimum wage. In-work poverty is an outrage. Anyone earning a full-time wage should be able to meet all of their needs. When a minimum wage was introduced here in the UK, there were naturally cries from capitalism and its political servants, that a minimum wage would cause reduce job opportunities and cause an increase in unemployment. Multiple studies carried out since the minimum wage was introduced in the UK have proved this is not true in general. The minimum wage rate has lagged behind a real "living wage", but recent increases are closing that gap, which I am pleased to see in this country.

To ensure good opportunities into work for young people, other initiatives can be operated in parallel with a minimum wage- such as paid apprenticeships partly supported by the state - which from what I have seen can be a very useful gateway into a career.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
And their "generous" public spending? It's almost always disproportionately geared towards those who are solidly middle class. And it's always deficit-financed, since they have no policies that actually expand the tax base and they're too cowardly to actually raise taxes.
If they're too cowardly to raise taxes, they're not very good left wingers. Enough said.

I enjoy paying taxes. With them I buy civilization. An American said that, believe it or not.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:51 pm
They put an inordinate focus on issues that barely matter to the working poor. Giving DEI government jobs to the well educated children of affluent Nigerian and Korean immigrants unsurprisingly doesn't feel like a victory for the average working class person of colour. Subsidies for luxury electric vehicles feel more like an upper-middle class handout rather than some big climate win that will help the poor.

Ultimately they don't really care when these policies fail to improve the lot of poor people, because they already gained materially as a class and got to feel like they were being compassionate in the process. Worse still, if poor people notice these policies aren't helping and vote for some other party, the left elite denigrates them as ignoramuses "voting against their own interests". It's gotten so bad that they write off entire swathes of the country as backwards and unenlightened.
Not very progressive, I agree.

On the subject of electric vehicles, they aren't the solution - I agree with that. The solution in terms of transport specifically lies in reducing the need for people to make individual journeys; to reduce car ownership and improve public transport and other options. There are too many cars, however they are powered.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#48 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:31 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:40 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:16 am
What do you define as being wrong with "leftism" ?
They have completely lost their way.

More and more purity tests across more and more topics. Even the slightest disagreement leads to ostracizing.

Leftists supposedly are trying to fight against "hate" but their idealism has been corrupted so much (a lot of it now wrapped up in sanctimoniousness) that they have become the hate themselves.

I know the obvious response to this is "but Trump!". Just because the other tribe has bad behaviour too doesn't make your bad behaviour OK. A pox on both your houses.
I also wanted to respond to this.

What you are describing is something I have witnessed in equal measure from both sides.

I concede I have seen people on the left taking too hard a line, to quickly, to judge people for isolated comments, or blast people for having a slightly outdated view instead of trying to engage with them.

However, the great tendency on the right, certainly in the UK, is to brand anything which seems slightly progressive, slightly modern, slight un-Conservative as "WOKE!!!" and to thoughtlessly lash out in all directions at percieved woke-ery, most of which is tilting at windmills.

Real examples I have witnessed:

High-street bakery introduces new vegan sausage roll (while continuing to sell regular meat-based sausage rolls too):
"NOW LIBERAL LEFTIES ARE TURNING BAKERIES WOKE!"


South Korean film wins "Best Picture" Oscar, instead of mainstream big-budget American film:
"NOW THE OSCARS IS WOKE! I HATE THE LEFT FOR POISONING THE OSCARS!"

Doctor warns that "raw milk" is more likely to contain bacteria that cause food poisoning:
"PASTEURISED MILK IS WOKE!! WHY WON'T THE DEMOCRATS LEAVE ME ALONE!?!?"

The Archbishop of York mentions, in a sermon, that Jesus was from the Middle East:
"THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND HAS GONE WOKE!!!"

I could provide literally 100 more examples.

Basically on the British right, anything they don't like, for any reason, is now "WOKE!!".
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#49 Post by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:37 pm

While I would note that those particular examples (especially the last one) are on the more satirical end, I will say that I agree with the criticism of the ultra-conservative "any change is bad unless it's more like how it was before" crowd. I think they are shrinking in number (at least it seems so in the U.S.), but yeah, I can agree that it's annoying when an extreme end of your party makes a laughingstock of the real issues you wish to address by taking them to an unreasonable conclusion.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#50 Post by Octavious » Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:45 pm

I'm not convinced that these examples are real. The Church of England can't go woke for the same reason that you can't make the North Sea wet. It's already that way, and has been like it pretty much forever. I can't think of a single conservative who would claim that the CofE has gone woke because of a recent event.

Are you sure the milk one wasn't a joke? The bakery seems like a tongue in cheek newspaper headline. The only one that feels like it might be a genuine opinion is the one regarding the Oscars
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#51 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Dec 03, 2024 5:03 pm

There aren't great ways to measure this objectively, but it feels like a bit of cope to think Jamie's examples are just cherry picked.

It strikes me as very obvious that both left and right are becoming more sensitive and closed minded.

Maybe my impression is mostly caused by news and social media focusing more than ever on relatively rare extreme views. But even if that's the case, those changes in media are also colouring how other ordinary, non-extreme people perceive those who don't share their politics.

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#52 Post by Octavious » Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:45 pm

I don't think they're cherry picked. I don't think that they're real. I know a lot of British right wingers, and I am used to how they think and a lot of the nonsense we like to tell ourselves. Hearing about a sermon saying Jesus was from the Middle East and saying that it means the Church of England has gone woke just wouldn't happen. Partly because we all know He's from the Middle East, so it has no connection to wokeness, but mostly because virtually every right winger in England believes that the Church of England has been painfully woke for at least half a century.

Assuming Jamie hasn't just made it up (and I don't think he has) he's either misremembered something or has found a few click bait nonsense articles written by AI that the algorithm has sent his way because he reacts to them.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#53 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:10 am

GB News, the Daily Mail, and the various outpourings of Piers Morgan might be written by AI but they are swallowed as genuine journalism by some people on the right.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#54 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:07 pm

This on the other hand is definitely a genuine news article:

https://clickhole.com/walking-the-walk-elon-musk-has-fired-himself-from-the-department-of-government-efficiency-for-using-social-media-on-the-job/
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#55 Post by worcej » Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:01 am

brainbomb wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:53 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:36 pm
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:51 am
Its almost like the democrats wanna make america great again because its such a shithole, oh woops wrong party
Wait, what? Jamiet complains that Trump supporters are too positive about America. When I respond to this now you complain that Trump supporters are too negative. Can you make up your mind on what your actual complaint is here?
I dont need to make up my mind; America is falling behind globally in quality of
Life, cost of living, healthcare cost, infant mortality rates, math and science scores, and lord knows were the most likely place in the world to get shot at while buying groceries.
This isn't me trying to be a whataboutism, here - wanted to make that disclaimer.

America could totally have those things if we put social/domestic programs as a priority over defense spending. But we don't - and other countries benefit from it.

I loved Trump calling out NATO countries that are not honoring the 2% GDP treaty agreement. It wasn't until this year (2024) that Europe (as a collective) will hit that 2% GDP funding agreement.

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#56 Post by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:46 am

worcej wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:01 am
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:53 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:36 pm


Wait, what? Jamiet complains that Trump supporters are too positive about America. When I respond to this now you complain that Trump supporters are too negative. Can you make up your mind on what your actual complaint is here?
I dont need to make up my mind; America is falling behind globally in quality of
Life, cost of living, healthcare cost, infant mortality rates, math and science scores, and lord knows were the most likely place in the world to get shot at while buying groceries.
This isn't me trying to be a whataboutism, here - wanted to make that disclaimer.

America could totally have those things if we put social/domestic programs as a priority over defense spending. But we don't - and other countries benefit from it.

I loved Trump calling out NATO countries that are not honoring the 2% GDP treaty agreement. It wasn't until this year (2024) that Europe (as a collective) will hit that 2% GDP funding agreement.
Trump has threatened Canada with tariffs unless it tightens up its border security and meets its NATO commitments.

And obviously many Canadians resent being threatened with tariffs. The threat itself is already damaging both the US and Canadian economies.

But the demands themselves aren't unreasonable and its embarrassing that we're being bullied into doing things that we should have already done.

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#57 Post by worcej » Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:54 pm

Esquire Bertissimmo wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:46 am
worcej wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:01 am
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:53 pm


I dont need to make up my mind; America is falling behind globally in quality of
Life, cost of living, healthcare cost, infant mortality rates, math and science scores, and lord knows were the most likely place in the world to get shot at while buying groceries.
This isn't me trying to be a whataboutism, here - wanted to make that disclaimer.

America could totally have those things if we put social/domestic programs as a priority over defense spending. But we don't - and other countries benefit from it.

I loved Trump calling out NATO countries that are not honoring the 2% GDP treaty agreement. It wasn't until this year (2024) that Europe (as a collective) will hit that 2% GDP funding agreement.
Trump has threatened Canada with tariffs unless it tightens up its border security and meets its NATO commitments.

And obviously many Canadians resent being threatened with tariffs. The threat itself is already damaging both the US and Canadian economies.

But the demands themselves aren't unreasonable and its embarrassing that we're being bullied into doing things that we should have already done.
I don't disagree with your point here, but I like to bring this up when people mention how crappy the USA is for social programs (healthcare, education, etc.) compared to other countries as if this a choice made in a vacuum.

I'd love to see the hypothetical world where the USA take our military budget all the way down to just the "Monroe Doctrine" (protect North and South American interests) at most and then see how quickly the vaulted social programs of Europe fall due to spending having to shift to defense our the money is taken by their Russian Overlords (extreme /s fwiw)

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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#58 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Dec 12, 2024 12:14 am

I would love to see a massive reduction in US defence spending.

Priority #1, don't give a fucking cent's worth of ammunition to Israel.

US arms are used to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians every year.

If you're not already aware, AMERICA IS THE BAD GUY.
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#59 Post by kingofthepirates » Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:38 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2024 12:14 am
I would love to see a massive reduction in US defence spending.

Priority #1, don't give a fucking cent's worth of ammunition to Israel.

US arms are used to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians every year.

If you're not already aware, AMERICA IS THE BAD GUY.
Agree on defense spending, dedicate some of that massive gdp elsewhere.

In the defense of the military (and military industrial complex) though, everyone is the bad guy, and all countries have their fair share of responsibility. Yes, US manufactured arms are being used to kill innocent civilians, but also consider that there's a person behind that gun that's making the choice to do so (if we don't supply, they still ahve intent to kill. maybe not with efficiency, but they will still do it, ex. with knives).

America isn't the only bad guy here, and I'd argue we certain aren't the worst guys. IMO a better phrase would be "America is the bad-but-there-is-worse guy". Were some of our retaliatory wars over the top in terms of escalation? yeah, I think so, and america is a bad guy here (again, maybe not the worst guy cus it all depnds on who and how it started but moving on...). Was retaliation justified? absolutely, and this doesn't, imo, make america a bad guy.

Basically, consider: if some random person on the street punches and threatens me without provocation, I'm gonna hit back. Am I in the wrong? I think most sensible people would say "no, you're justified, you're not a bad guy".
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Re: Why did you vote for Trump?

#60 Post by worcej » Thu Dec 12, 2024 3:28 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2024 12:14 am
I would love to see a massive reduction in US defence spending.

Priority #1, don't give a fucking cent's worth of ammunition to Israel.

US arms are used to murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians every year.

If you're not already aware, AMERICA IS THE BAD GUY.
I'd personally prioritize ceasing Ukraine funding far before Israel, but that's just me.

And yeah, we make bullets - but we're not the ones using them so we're really not the bad guys. KotP said this more eloquently.

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