Gaza genocide estimated at over 5% of the civilian population

[Jamiet99uk]

Piss off.

[kingofthepirates]

(snipped for length)

You make several good points (with respect though, please take a chill pill), I'm not aware of nearby country's acceptance/refusal of refugees but if what you say is true I agree that it is an issue. However, at the same time it cannot be denied that Isreal is far from innocent in this conflict.

Consider, for example, the killing of innocent medical personnel and the current humanitarian crisis in Gaza. As you say, civilians are caught in the crossfire, and you seem to be of the opinion that they should not be there, which I agree with! But Isreal has blocked a significant amount of aid from reaching said civilians (innocents!), and has even killed aid workers! This is simply appalling, and I'd certainly say these transgressions should be punished! Yes, Hamas started it, but 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Basically, both sides have committed war crimes, and Isreal's are NOT justified by Gaza committing their own first. War crimes are war crimes, simple as that. We cannot turn a blind eye to either side's actions, and both should be punished in accordance with their actions. Meanwhile, aid should be allowed to flow and those who seek and give it should not face challenges while doing so.

[Jamiet99uk]

By the way, the reason that Egypt and Jordan are not willing to take large numbers of Palestinian refugees, is because it is clearly Israel's intention to either kill the entire Arab population of Gaza and the West Bank OR forcibly expel them into Jordan and Egypt forever, therefore erasing the remaining Palestinian land.

[CaptainFritz28]

So if your neighbor is being forcibly removed from their home, and you can either keep them alive by letting them stay with you or they'll die if you do nothing, you just let them die in protest of the situation to begin with? Something... something doesn't make sense here. Obviously they shouldn't be forced to make that choice in the first place, but that doesn't excuse them from making the choice that causes more death.

Should countries like Switzerland in WW2 have forced fleeing Jews to return to Germany in protest of the Holocaust? Since when was the humanitarian response to genocide ever not helping the people affected by it?

They've made it clear that they don't care about the people, because they'd rather they die for a political statement than live as refugees, and they don't care about the land, because they'd rather Israel administer it and have to deal with the terrorists inside than themselves.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

By the way, the reason that Egypt and Jordan are not willing to take large numbers of Palestinian refugees, is because it is clearly Israel's intention to either kill the entire Arab population of Gaza and the West Bank OR forcibly expel them into Jordan and Egypt forever, therefore erasing the remaining Palestinian land.

20% of Israel proper (i.e., not Gaza or the West Bank) is Arab. Most of those Arabs consider themselves Palestinian. They have full citizenship and are a significant force in Israeli politics.

Why isn't Israel murdering or forcibly expelling these folks first?

The situation in Gaza clearly has something to do with the security dilemma caused by Gaxa being governed by an Iran-backed terror group, rather than just being a Hitler-style extermination campaign against Palestinians.

[Jamiet99uk]

Should countries like Switzerland in WW2 have forced fleeing Jews to return to Germany in protest of the Holocaust? Since when was the humanitarian response to genocide ever not helping the people affected by it?

So, just to be clear, you AGREE that Israel is deliberately carrying out a holocaust.

Yes?

[Jamiet99uk]

Israel is a Nazi ethno-state intent on cleansing anyone who isn't the right kind of Zionist.

By "cleansing" they mean "killing". Let's just be clear. At this point, we either STOP Israel, or we let them MURDER WHOEVER THEY LIKE.

Adolf Hitler never had this much opportunity.

[principians]

Hi again guys, there has been a while since the last time I was here. Some things have happened since then, for instance, in my country I voted for a jewish woman for president...

Been reading a bit. So many things have been said, so many things to say, this conflict is so far from me and I just don't have the time right now to get involved in too lengthy discussions. I just want to focus in 1 particular piece that I found truely incredible.

Hamas deliberately uses civilians as human shields

Hamas is a terrorist organization, yep. But I don't understand how can civilized people conceive that 'hamas using people as shield' is a good argument/excuse. Maybe I have issues understanding war in general, I think it maybe made sense in the XII century, not when there are some nuclear powers around. But that's for another discussion. Anyway, in our current world we are just not supposed to kill civilians. If you kill a civilian when he's not threatening your life at the same time, you are an assassin, period. If Hamas is really taking people as shield, then that people is being victim of hamas, you should make everything at your hand to avoid affecting those victims. Especially if they are sick people in hospitals or children in schools.

Later

[CaptainFritz28]

Adolf Hitler never had this much opportunity.

Can we at least keep our hyperbole within the realm of sensibility?

[CaptainFritz28]

Should countries like Switzerland in WW2 have forced fleeing Jews to return to Germany in protest of the Holocaust? Since when was the humanitarian response to genocide ever not helping the people affected by it?

So, just to be clear, you AGREE that Israel is deliberately carrying out a holocaust.

Yes?

I don't see how that conclusion is drawn from my reference to that historical event. I was suggesting a principle and citing a historical example of that principle. However, the principle I refer to is a very broad one, and can be applied to anything from a single negligent act to purposeful mass genocide.

No, I don't think Israel is carrying out a holocaust. As Bertissimo pointed out, there are many Arabs in Israel, unpersecuted, with access to all the rights of Israeli citizens and political power of their own. If Israel were carrying out a holocaust that would not be the case.

No, Israel is at war. They're at war with a terrorist organization and using the excuse that they're at war with such a group to justify negligent and/or purposeful war crimes. This is motivated by vengeance, as well as a feeling that that land should be theirs and should've been theirs long ago, and by golly nothing's going to stop them from finally getting control of it and ridding it of the grand annoyance that is Hamas.

Adding to the suffering of the Palestinians, however, and a point which has still gone entirely unresponded to thus far, is the fact that the Gazans' Arab neighbors couldn't care less (or so their actions indicate) about the plight of innocent Gazans.

Do I excuse Israel? No, of course not. But I'm also not going to excuse Egypt and Jordan for their responses which merely make the death and suffering worse.

If someone comes along and shoots my neighbors, and I sit by and do nothing to help them, even though I could save their lives, because I wish to protest the person who shot them, then I am just as responsible for their deaths as the person who shot them.

Likewise, if I could've taken measures to deter the person from shooting them in the first place (say, threatening to take away their gun if they start shooting at people), but I do not, then I am also responsible for the deaths of those shot. Such is the case with countries like the U.S. who sit idly by and give Israel a blank check.

Is there blame to be placed on Israel? Yes, of course. I think there's been plenty of such blame in this thread as it is, and much of it warranted. However, there is also blame to be placed on the responses of nations like Egypt and Jordan for their failure to exhibit any care for those affected, and there is blame to be placed on countries like the U.S. whose responses enable Israel to make such reckless decisions without any ramifications.

[Jamiet99uk]

By the way, the reason that Egypt and Jordan are not willing to take large numbers of Palestinian refugees, is because it is clearly Israel's intention to either kill the entire Arab population of Gaza and the West Bank OR forcibly expel them into Jordan and Egypt forever, therefore erasing the remaining Palestinian land.

20% of Israel proper (i.e., not Gaza or the West Bank) is Arab. Most of those Arabs consider themselves Palestinian. They have full citizenship and are a significant force in Israeli politics.

Why isn't Israel murdering or forcibly expelling these folks first?

The situation in Gaza clearly has something to do with the security dilemma caused by Gaxa being governed by an Iran-backed terror group, rather than just being a Hitler-style extermination campaign against Palestinians.

And the West Bank?

[Jamiet99uk]

Adolf Hitler never had this much opportunity.

Can we at least keep our hyperbole within the realm of sensibility?

My point is that when Hitler did it, the world attempted to stop him.

[Jamiet99uk]

But I realise that I have now Godwinned the thread, so sorry about that.

[CaptainFritz28]

Adolf Hitler never had this much opportunity.

Can we at least keep our hyperbole within the realm of sensibility?

My point is that when Hitler did it, the world attempted to stop him.

Yes... although the world primarily tried to stop him because he was invading other nations, not so much because of the Holocaust. There were conferences where world leaders met before ww2, and some of them knew about the Holocaust but just didn't bring it up because they didn't particularly care.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Israel's actions in Gaza are criminal and can rightly be called genocidal, but they are not an exterminationist campaign like Nazi Germany's Holocaust. That distinction is important. While the scale of suffering is immense, Israel's goal does not seem to be the complete annihilation of all Palestinians, something they could easily achieve if that were the intent.

Recognizing this difference helps us predict what’s likely to happen next—more violence and displacement, but not mass extermination. It also shapes the solutions we should advocate. Rather than calling for Israel’s dismantlement, we need to focus on political resolutions and security arrangements that protect all parties.

Most people can condemn war crimes without confusing them with an exterminationist campaign. I think the hyperbole does a disservice to Jamie's position - the comparisons to Nazi Germany make me dwell on all the obvious dissimilarities, rather than focus on the moral outrage I feel in regards to Israel's actual horrific actions. Accurate comparisons matter, because they help us stay focused on what needs to change—and how.

[Jamiet99uk]

Can we at least keep our hyperbole within the realm of sensibility?

My point is that when Hitler did it, the world attempted to stop him.

Yes... although the world primarily tried to stop him because he was invading other nations, not so much because of the Holocaust. There were conferences where world leaders met before ww2, and some of them knew about the Holocaust but just didn't bring it up because they didn't particularly care.

You know, I must concede that's a fair comment. The failure of the Évian Conference in 1938 and the refusal of the USA and other countries to accept Jewish refugees stands as clear evidence to your point. It was Hitler's military aggression that prompted a full international response, not the persecution and murder of minorities.