Gaza genocide estimated at over 5% of the civilian population

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Because he also said a lot of "but Iran" and "but Hamas" and I'm sick and tired of hearing about Iran and Hamas.

I am not a supporter of Iran (I'm an atheist, they're a dictatorial theocracy), and I agree that Hamas is a violent extremist organisation whose leaders should be in jail alongside every minister in Israel's government.

But neither the foolish aims of Iran's foreign policy, nor the existence of Hamas, gives Israel the justification to massacre civilians, which is what they are doing.

If your preference is that Israel unilaterally disarm and withdraw then it's not whataboutery to ask "what about Iran and its proxies"? Israel is doing some terrible things, but any plan to make them stop their war crimes has to take into account their ongoing need to defend themselves.

I'm upset. Reading the news is making me cry and shout and drink more heavily. This is seriously affecting my mental health.

We can tell. It's not healthy nor useful to get this involved in the news.

Things could get worse. The reality is that Israel probably won't be restrained even though they obviously should be. There might be a full scale war between Israel and Iran that is very devastating for both sides. You need to find some way to survive what might be many more months of devastating news.

Ok but let's focus on this. It is the debate.

Let's assume we do all agree that Israel is committing war crimes on a massive scale, and should be stopped from doing so. It would give me some comfort to know that we are all in agreement on that.

That being the case:

Why do we believe that nobody in the international community IS doing anything whatsoever about it?

Why are Britain and America supplying weapons to Israel which they KNOW are being used to commit war crimes?

Why is Israel being given a free licence to kill and maim whoever it likes, with no repercussions?

Why are there elected representatives in Washington and London cheering and jumping for joy whenever Israel blows up a hospital?

Let's talk about that.

This is a list of issues that probably everyone on the forum agrees with.

Military support for Israel probably can't stop on a dime because of the genuine threat from Iran, but it is a point of leverage Western governments should have been using to punish Israel for its war crimes.

War criminals everywhere should be jailed. The unfortunate reality is that these laws are rarely upheld, so doing something drastic (e.g., arresting Bibi while he's in office) would rightly be considered imposing a double standard.

Where you lose people, or at least me, is when you say Israel is 100% responsible for a centuries old cycle of violence and when you suggest that this conflict invalidates the state of Israel (and therefore justifies the murder or displacement of millions of Israelis).

I'm a committed two-stater because anything else is advocating genocide. I think you were too until the news deranged you?

[Jamiet99uk]

Okay. I take back "Israel should be dismantled".

I remain of the view that Israel should have been forcibly prevented from coming into existence and I largely blame the UK for that, but I concede that that is now in the past.

Israel is however responsible for its current actions.

From October last year, Israel has been telling the world that the only possible reaction to the Hamas attack was vengeance, collective punishment, civilian bodies upon civilian bodies. Of course, that is not true. There other courses that could have been taken.

More than 42,000 Palestinians directly killed in 365 days (one in 55 of the population of Gaza). 17,000 of them children. More than 11,000 of them women. Which doesn’t include the missing, the buried, and hundreds more murdered in the West Bank. A brutal and inhumane collective punishment beyond comprehension.

Added to the deaths, the number of injured. Over 97,000 Palestinians injured (one out of every 23 people in Gaza). The vast, vast majority of them non-combatants, many of them children. In July, UNICEF said that at least 1,000 children had lost one or both of their legs in Gaza. Think about that. Think about a thousand young children having their limbs blown off. Think about who would deliberately do that.

In the past year we have seen horror after horror. Senseless, cruel, dehumanising horror. 520 bodies found in seven mass grave sites created by the IDF. Justified by Israel as vengeance and “justice”. How many more bodies are buried we will probably never fully know.

Israel is responsible for this. Its leaders chose the mass bombing of civilians, it cynically chose to use the opportunity of October 7th to achieve its brutal military aims, leaving a trail of devastation and death behind. On purpose. There were other choices available, but they chose war crimes.

But our leaders are responsible too. Rishi Sunak. Joe Biden. Kamala Harris. Keir Starmer. They gave cover to Israel’s murderous crimes. They have supported the genocide in multiple ways, from strategic silence to military hardware. They aren’t just cowards, they are active participants.

It isn't just Israel and their cheerleaders who are responsible. What about those who have stayed quiet over this year of blood? I won't be quiet. I will rage.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I won't be quiet. I will rage.

I agree with everything you said above.

But this is the part where you might want to ask what's healthy and useful for you as an individual.

Be loud, protest, and do those small things any one person can do in the face of a major geopolitical situation. But if your rage takes the form of sitting alone and stewing, loathing, and drinking then it is literally just poisoning yourself for no benefit.

[CaptainFritz28]

Okay. I take back "Israel should be dismantled".

I remain of the view that Israel should have been forcibly prevented from coming into existence and I largely blame the UK for that, but I concede that that is now in the past.

Israel is however responsible for its current actions.

From October last year, Israel has been telling the world that the only possible reaction to the Hamas attack was vengeance, collective punishment, civilian bodies upon civilian bodies. Of course, that is not true. There other courses that could have been taken.

More than 42,000 Palestinians directly killed in 365 days (one in 55 of the population of Gaza). 17,000 of them children. More than 11,000 of them women. Which doesn’t include the missing, the buried, and hundreds more murdered in the West Bank. A brutal and inhumane collective punishment beyond comprehension.

Added to the deaths, the number of injured. Over 97,000 Palestinians injured (one out of every 23 people in Gaza). The vast, vast majority of them non-combatants, many of them children. In July, UNICEF said that at least 1,000 children had lost one or both of their legs in Gaza. Think about that. Think about a thousand young children having their limbs blown off. Think about who would deliberately do that.

In the past year we have seen horror after horror. Senseless, cruel, dehumanising horror. 520 bodies found in seven mass grave sites created by the IDF. Justified by Israel as vengeance and “justice”. How many more bodies are buried we will probably never fully know.

Israel is responsible for this. Its leaders chose the mass bombing of civilians, it cynically chose to use the opportunity of October 7th to achieve its brutal military aims, leaving a trail of devastation and death behind. On purpose. There were other choices available, but they chose war crimes.

But our leaders are responsible too. Rishi Sunak. Joe Biden. Kamala Harris. Keir Starmer. They gave cover to Israel’s murderous crimes. They have supported the genocide in multiple ways, from strategic silence to military hardware. They aren’t just cowards, they are active participants.

It isn't just Israel and their cheerleaders who are responsible. What about those who have stayed quiet over this year of blood? I won't be quiet. I will rage.

I agree with this. Israel's actions have been appalling, especially coming from a state that claims to be civilized and honorable. They've used the excuse of 120 hostages to justify thousands of deaths, which I even from the beginning regarded as rather silly. Palestinian lives are just as valuable as Israeli lives, after all. I've been annoyed both by parties advocating for full support and condoning of all of Israel's actions and by parties advocating for the complete abolishing of Israel and the displacement or death of all the Jews.

Yet the world right now seems to be unable to see things in anything but a vengeful light. Gazans can't forgive Israel for taking their land, so Hamas fires rockets and starts a brutal attack. Israelis can't forgive Gazans for Hamas or October 7th, so they embark on various war crimes as a "how's it feel when we do it back?" (Except that they have the power to do so on a much broader scale so they kill even more people.) Politicians, who are constantly campaigning off of vengeance and the faults of others, are the perfect sort of people to propagate this narrative of revenge. Also notably, I'm not saying we just never punish war crimes in the spirit of "forgiveness," that'd be ridiculous. Forgiveness and justice can exist simultaneously.

They're all responsible. They're responsible for the division in our nations and abroad. They fail to see violence and war as anything but a means to an end of revenge and personal gain. In some ways I wish the whole world could have revolutions to replace all the corrupt governments that are only tearing themselves and the rest of the world apart.

So yeah. I'm mad too. The more I see of the news, of governments failing to even aid their own people (e.g. the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Helene), of politicians on both sides lying, being stupid, and being selfish over actually getting things done that will help do their job, the more I am just a little more dejected about the state of the world.

But if I want to try to fix all of that, being mad isn't going to help. So for now I study for a career where I'll be able to use my skills to do good, vote for the candidate who appears least evil, and advocate for what I believe is right even if no one else does. Often I catch myself doing that latter one a little too passionately, and I have to remind myself that there are better things to do with my life... like study Calc II homework even though I really rather wouldn't. Speaking of which, I may or may not be writing this as a method of procrastination, so I'll end it off here and get back to working on Integrals...

[CaptainFritz28]

Because he also said a lot of "but Iran" and "but Hamas" and I'm sick and tired of hearing about Iran and Hamas.

Put simply, one cannot discuss Israel without also discussing Iran and Hamas, at least not in this context. We can lay blame on them for what they've done all we want, sure, but seeing as we're not in any position to do anything about what's already happened, that doesn't really matter. What we must do is look at what should be done next, which CANNOT be done effectively without taking into account all sides and factions involved.

But neither the foolish aims of Iran's foreign policy, nor the existence of Hamas, gives Israel the justification to massacre civilians, which is what they are doing.

Of course it doesn't. But it does inform how we should go about responding to Israel. We can't simply fully defund them because then they get killed. Many politicians have thus just taken the opposite extreme and fully condoned them... which is stupid... but neither approach properly addresses how to keep as many Palestinians, Iranians, and Israelis alive and peaceful as possible.

So we have to look at what Iran and Hamas will do if we defund Israel. And we have to look at what Israel will do if we give them full support. And since neither of those are a good option we look at what's in between. Shutting out one side or the other is not the way to go about it.

Personally, I think that international pressure should be put on Israel, in the form of less military funding (although not a full withdrawal) and sanctions until they lighten up and stop committing war crimes. If Iran responds to this by attacking Israel, we give them a bit more funding and put sanctions on Iran, and we do so until someone caves in to the pressure and eases tension. If neither side does so and both demonstrate that they want to just fight it out, then we have a more difficult choice to make.

[Jamiet99uk]

But neither the foolish aims of Iran's foreign policy, nor the existence of Hamas, gives Israel the justification to massacre civilians, which is what they are doing.

Of course it doesn't. But it does inform how we should go about responding to Israel. We can't simply fully defund them because then they get killed.

Why do we prioritise Israeli lives over Palestinian lives? Because that's what you're doing, and that's what our politicians are doing.

You say we must provide funding and arms to Israel to prevent Israeli deaths.

Yet we are doing nothing to prevent Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israel.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Hamas has backers. Iran and Qatar are happy to fund and supply arms for their kill-all-Jews mission. If this weren't the case it would be much easier for the rest of the world to abandon Israel when it behaves criminally.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Plus the US and Europe have each provided about $1 billion in humanitarian aid to Palestinians since Hamas/Iran started the war last October — evidently not enough to prevent horrific conditions for Palestinians, but easily 10x the amount of international aid given to Sudan in per capita terms, where children are also dying as a result of a war with many nefarious international backers.

[Jamiet99uk]

Plus the US and Europe have each provided about $1 billion in humanitarian aid to Palestinians since Hamas/Iran started the war last October — evidently not enough to prevent horrific conditions for Palestinians, but easily 10x the amount of international aid given to Sudan in per capita terms, where children are also dying as a result of a war with many nefarious international backers.

So I can give someone a gun which I know they will use to shoot you, as long as I'm willing to make a donation towards your medical bills if you survive the gunshot?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Plus the US and Europe have each provided about $1 billion in humanitarian aid to Palestinians since Hamas/Iran started the war last October — evidently not enough to prevent horrific conditions for Palestinians, but easily 10x the amount of international aid given to Sudan in per capita terms, where children are also dying as a result of a war with many nefarious international backers.

So I can give someone a gun which I know they will use to shoot you, as long as I'm willing to make a donation towards your medical bills if you survive the gunshot?

Yes, that's the reality of the situation.

The US and EU will not abandon Israel because it's in their interest to use Israel's military to contain Iran.

So while they feel obliged to continue some significant amount of support for Israel, they also care enough about Palestinians to provide them with more aid per person than they'll give to other civilians who face similar hardships.

These sorts of compromises are ugly and unsatisfactory, but they're nothing new in global affairs.

[Jamiet99uk]

I am more concerned by their ugliness than by the historic preponderance for ugliness.

What is wrong with us?

Why has human civilisation failed so badly?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I'm not normally a big quote guy, but Kant summarize this as: "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made."

I think the origin is Darwinian, the Christians in the thread might call it "sin", but ultimately we're talking about the same essential human flaws - we're imperfectly designed for our environment, we're obligatorily selfish in some circumstances, and we're not capable of achieving our grand visions for the world without horrible unintended consequences.

[CaptainFritz28]

But neither the foolish aims of Iran's foreign policy, nor the existence of Hamas, gives Israel the justification to massacre civilians, which is what they are doing.

Of course it doesn't. But it does inform how we should go about responding to Israel. We can't simply fully defund them because then they get killed.

Why do we prioritise Israeli lives over Palestinian lives? Because that's what you're doing, and that's what our politicians are doing.

You say we must provide funding and arms to Israel to prevent Israeli deaths.

Yet we are doing nothing to prevent Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israel.

Well it's a matter of doing what will save the most lives, without regard to whose lives are being saved. If we stop funding Israel, people will die because things will escalate. That said, right now we're not doing what could be done to save Palestinian lives with low risk to Israeli lives, which is what I find fault with in our governments' current positions.

[CaptainFritz28]

I am more concerned by their ugliness than by the historic preponderance for ugliness.

What is wrong with us?

Why has human civilisation failed so badly?

I doubt you really want that question to be answered, considering you seem to hate discussing matters of worldview alongside politics.

[Jamiet99uk]

I am more concerned by their ugliness than by the historic preponderance for ugliness.

What is wrong with us?

Why has human civilisation failed so badly?

I doubt you really want that question to be answered, considering you seem to hate discussing matters of worldview alongside politics.

I assume your answer is therefore "not enough capitalism" or "not enough Jesus".

[CaptainFritz28]

I find it humorous that your stereotype of me includes viewing capitalism as a solution to humanity's problem of evil.

But in the latter case, yes. If the world really followed the teachings of Jesus, wars and corruption would cease to exist.

[kingofthepirates]

But in the latter case, yes. If the world really followed the teachings of Jesus, wars and corruption would cease to exist.

The same can be said for a number of figures, Buddhism, for example. Heck, nigh all religions I’m pretty sure have something about “hey don’t be a dick, peace is pretty cool”. Not even that, I dare say the majority of people, if allowed to speak on it would probably say “yeah let’s have peace”

[CaptainFritz28]

Perhaps that is the case. I was asked particularly about Christianity, so I answered as such. But yes, theoretically, if everyone held the same beliefs, no matter the worldview, there would be world peace.

[learnedSloth]

Advice doesn't help if people can't follow it.

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8)

[Lord Aragon]

Israel did not start this fight. ISRAELI CIVILIANS WERE TARGETED BY HAMAS IN A COWARDLY TERRORIST ATTACK! Hamas not only operates from civilian areas, Hamas deliberately uses civilians as human shields, basing their terrorist operations in hospitals and schools. SHAME ON HAMAS AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM! Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iran and anyone else who attacks their country and their people. The tragic fact that civilians in Gaza are caught in the crossfire IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF HAMAS for aforementioned reasons. Casualties among Gazan cities are collateral damage, which is a sad consequence of war suffered by various peoples throughout history. The noncombatants in Gaza are utterly disregarded by not only the Hamas terrorists, but by all the other states that (a) fund Hamas, and (b) CHOOSE to isolate Gazans. Why doesn't the rest of the Arab world provide sanctuary for Gazans? Why doesn't Iran? Or Lebanon? Or Syria? Or Yemen? Or Saudi Arabia? Or the Gulf States? Or Turkey? NOBODY in the Arab, Persian, or Turkish Middle East care a whip about the Gazans, except to be used as "martyrs" to be sacrificed on the alter of hate toward Israel. Recall, Jordan had their fill of the so-called "Palestinians" during their Black September uprising in 1970. And Anwar Sadat made sure that a condition of Egypt's peace treaty with Israel in 1979 was that Israel had to take charge of the Gaza Strip (previously controlled by Egypt). Egypt won't even allow civilians of Gaza to cross the border into the neighboring Egyptian Suez as war refugees, even though Israel has clearly stated they would allow that. Why? Because while the Arab and Persian and Turkish states are willing to "support" Hamas in provoking and attacking Israel, they are NOT WILLING to support the people of Gaza as war refugees. THE MOSLEM ARABS, PERSIANS, AND TURKS OF THE MIDDLE EAST DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CIVILIANS IN GAZA. THEY WOULD RATHER SEE THEM SUFFER THAN SEE THEM IN REFUGEE CAMPS INSIDE THEIR TERRITORY. Your complaints toward Israel are misdirected and filled with irrational hate. Any state with the means to destroy those that actively attack their people has a right to defend itself. Hamas (seemingly with Iran's encouragement) has reaped more than it bargained for in their cowardly, treacherous attack of Oct 7. And as the cowards they are, they continue to hide behind the skirts of their women, putting their own children in mortal peril. SHAME ON HAMAS! Because of their dastardly action (precipitated by years of terrorist attacks), they and their civilians are learning a harsh lesson in retribution. They sought to push Israel to the limit--and they succeeded. Well done. Now all of Gaza's civilians get to see if martydom at the hands of the so-called "Jewish infidels" is indeed a free ticket to "70 virgins." SHAME ON HAMAS!