wD Mafia Master Post

[damo666]

To be discussed in kouncil but opinions welcome.

[brainbomb]

For your third proposal could you define "flaking"?

Flaking as I am defining it would be a player who willfully confirmed they will participate and then they fail to meet basic level of requirements and fail in indicate a need to be replaced. This is not targeting anyone specific but if this happens more than once it is problematic

[brainbomb]

Proposed rule change

Before a game begins players must confirm participation via discord.
There is a situational flaw in using discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence. Making sure the players wanting to play in the game check in and confirm via discord allows the gm to know that player :

A. Has a discord and cannot claim mid game they dont even have one.

And B: that the player cant be accused of being innocent by way of not using discord.


Second proposed rule change
The changing of avatars, signatures, visible account details be completely banned from being edited once a game has begun.


Third proposed rule change
Anyone who signs up for a game and is subbed for flaking or
Modkilled for flaking must serve a mandatory 2 game ban

Re: 1:
Would they have to join a specific Discord server or just PM the GM in Discord?

Re: 2:
When has this issue actually caused a problem? I fail to understand the obsession with it.

Re:3:
I assume by "flaking" you mean failing to adhere to minimum participation limits. In which case, I agree.

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

I think there's a point that needs to be made here about player responsibility.

Specifically, I believe that if a player informs the GM that they will not be able to participate, and request to be subbed out before they start failing to meet participation requirements it's not flaking.

This is a reasonable exception and I also feel that it would encourage players to act proactively to inform the GM ahead of time.

If someone does this a lot then that's a different problem that's specific enough for the Kouncil to reasonably handle it on a case-by-case basis.

[brainbomb]

Also I do not blame damo or haze for their modkills and I dont consider that flaking. Flaking would be agreeing to play then never fulfilling the players requirements to even the barest minimum of levels. Responsibly asking for a sub is indeed the wya to avoid this becoming flaking

[Jamiet99uk]

Proposed rule change

Before a game begins players must confirm participation via discord.
There is a situational flaw in using discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence. Making sure the players wanting to play in the game check in and confirm via discord allows the gm to know that player :

A. Has a discord and cannot claim mid game they dont even have one.

And B: that the player cant be accused of being innocent by way of not using discord.


Second proposed rule change
The changing of avatars, signatures, visible account details be completely banned from being edited once a game has begun.


Third proposed rule change
Anyone who signs up for a game and is subbed for flaking or
Modkilled for flaking must serve a mandatory 2 game ban

Re: 1:
Would they have to join a specific Discord server or just PM the GM in Discord?

Re: 2:
When has this issue actually caused a problem? I fail to understand the obsession with it.

Re:3:
I assume by "flaking" you mean failing to adhere to minimum participation limits. In which case, I agree.

Uhhhh.

Why quote my questions without answering them?

[kingofthepirates]

Re: 2:
When has this issue actually caused a problem? I fail to understand the obsession with it.

personal 2 cents: just keep the possibility out of mind in the first place. I don't think this is a major problem (if a problem at all!). But imho its better to cover for the edge cases than try to correct for them when something breaks.

[Jamiet99uk]

Does all of this need to be agreed before we prepare for the next game?

[Jamiet99uk]

Re: 2:
When has this issue actually caused a problem? I fail to understand the obsession with it.

personal 2 cents: just keep the possibility out of mind in the first place. I don't think this is a major problem (if a problem at all!). But imho its better to cover for the edge cases than try to correct for them when something breaks.

I think having a rule meaning that while a Mafia game is in progress, you can't change your Profile Picture, Signature, Location, Website, Facebook account, Twitter handle, Skype number or YouTube account is a bit over the top and unnecessary.

[sweetandcool]

Re: 2:
When has this issue actually caused a problem? I fail to understand the obsession with it.

personal 2 cents: just keep the possibility out of mind in the first place. I don't think this is a major problem (if a problem at all!). But imho its better to cover for the edge cases than try to correct for them when something breaks.

I think having a rule meaning that while a Mafia game is in progress, you can't change your Profile Picture, Signature, Location, Website, Facebook account, Twitter handle, Skype number or YouTube account is a bit over the top and unnecessary.

How often do you change your Facebook account, YouTube account, Skype Number, or Twitter Handle? O_O

Guys, I think Jamiet is a spy or conman if he needs to make new accounts constantly.

[Jamiet99uk]

personal 2 cents: just keep the possibility out of mind in the first place. I don't think this is a major problem (if a problem at all!). But imho its better to cover for the edge cases than try to correct for them when something breaks.

I think having a rule meaning that while a Mafia game is in progress, you can't change your Profile Picture, Signature, Location, Website, Facebook account, Twitter handle, Skype number or YouTube account is a bit over the top and unnecessary.

How often do you change your Facebook account, YouTube account, Skype Number, or Twitter Handle? O_O

Guys, I think Jamiet is a spy or conman if he needs to make new accounts constantly.

I do not know what you could be talking about.

[brainbomb]

I think for a new player suddenly seeing two players with the same avatar thats pretty annoying and pretty confusing

For a veteran player seeing two people with the same avatar and getting them confused it is also pretty annoying and confusing. If you reply to someone you think is a certain player and instead its someone else masking and obfuscating their very identity for a laugh its probably unlawful to be doing that

The signatures feature im less concerned about but it can serve as a way to relay information that is through a channel that is beyond the game thread. It can lead to players being confused by seeing that in other threads in the forum and thinking the theead is the game thread and they could mistakenly post in improer places.

For example going around with a signature saying im town could cause a newer player to misinterpret it as part of your message or even as you posting about the game somewhere else

Fundamentally I dont care that much
But
THIS already has been outlawed ages ago and it continues to keep happening and we keep needing to keep doing it for some ungodly reason??

[brainbomb]

Repeating
This was already banned activity
So the proposed rule change would be that we agree to stop doing it then the kouncil doesnt have to rule on it

[Jamiet99uk]

I think for a new player suddenly seeing two players with the same avatar thats pretty annoying and pretty confusing

For a veteran player seeing two people with the same avatar and getting them confused it is also pretty annoying and confusing. If you reply to someone you think is a certain player and instead its someone else masking and obfuscating their very identity for a laugh its probably unlawful to be doing that

The signatures feature im less concerned about but it can serve as a way to relay information that is through a channel that is beyond the game thread. It can lead to players being confused by seeing that in other threads in the forum and thinking the theead is the game thread and they could mistakenly post in improer places.

For example going around with a signature saying im town could cause a newer player to misinterpret it as part of your message or even as you posting about the game somewhere else

Fundamentally I dont care that much
But
THIS already has been outlawed ages ago and it continues to keep happening and we keep needing to keep doing it for some ungodly reason??

Okay fine.

Re: 1:
Would they have to join a specific Discord server or just PM the GM in Discord?

[brainbomb]

I think by dm to the gm would at least remove any kind of concerns someone doesnt have a discord

Basically we wanna avoid someone being cleared for not even having a discord. Not that its ever happened but it almost outted fidelis in a game where he was claiming to have gm conversations on discord without even being in the webdip server.

Its mostly just a mech precautionary measure

To give an example in game 1 I had submitted bozo to be my recruit and right around end of night I was bored waiting for the day start and I noticed bozo had never joined the olympics server and also hadnt been logged into discord anywhere since june so that basically outted him as town.

But luckily I was already recruiting him anyway and it did not influence my decisions.


But imagine a scenario where someone gets proven innocent in such a way

[Jamiet99uk]

Proposed rule change

Before a game begins players must confirm participation via discord.
There is a situational flaw in using discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence.

I would like to suggest an IMPORTANT AMENDMENT to the above proposal, as follows:

=================
Before a game begins, if Discord is being used to facilitate any part of gameplay, players must confirm participation via Discord. There is a situational flaw in using Discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence.
=================

As you know, I don't plan on using Discord to facilitate Mafia Chat etc., the next time I GM. Therefore this amendment would be needed.

[kingofthepirates]

Proposed rule change

Before a game begins players must confirm participation via discord.
There is a situational flaw in using discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence.

I would like to suggest an IMPORTANT AMENDMENT to the above proposal, as follows:

=================
Before a game begins, if Discord is being used to facilitate any part of gameplay, players must confirm participation via Discord. There is a situational flaw in using Discord for mafia chat where players can see when a person last logged into the app in various servers which serves as providing mechanical evidence of innocence.
=================

As you know, I don't plan on using Discord to facilitate Mafia Chat etc., the next time I GM. Therefore this amendment would be needed.

valid, I get behind this (perhaps amend to "before a game begins, players must confirm participation via whatever platform the GM chooses to use" to generalize it to all platforms?)

[Jamiet99uk]

Yes, that works. I'd be ok with that.

By the way, I have identified a potential alternative to Discord for the purposes of Mafia chat. BunnyGo has been helping me to test it out. More news on this in the near future.

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

So, the underlying problems I'm seeing here are:
A: Discord can potentially give people unfair information. Not just when they've last logged on, but also, say, if they are currently on at any given point. This is an underlying flaw of using discord for mafia meetings, and I think whatever Jamiet is up to is more likely to fix it than just saying "everyone must confirm use of discord".

B: Wait, isn't this already not allowed? If so and if people are doing it, why isn't the Kouncil taking action? If it's already a rule and nobody is doing it, why is this an issue?

C: People are not participating, and then leaving. This issue is actually very well solved by brainbomb's proposal, with some sort of exception for people who responsibly ask to be subbed out.

[dargorygel]

I have not weighed in on this, although Kouncil is discussing. But my (unsurprising) thoughts.
A. We HAVE had a couple of issues with 'known presence' becoming a factor in the game. Monarch had it in one of the Olympic games. It is annoying when IRL things become a part of our games. But there is a setting on discord that allows you to be 'hidden' always... and your presence (last logged in) NOT visible. If the game has a discord element... click the button and all is solved. ALSO... do not try to sleuth a game like that. There are so many reasons someone might be online (or offline) that do not have anything to do with Mafia. I know, right?

B. We have that rule already. Do not do it.

C. I am hesitant to make a hard and fast rule here. If this goes through, I will not absolutely hate it. But as a Kouncilor, I believee in giving GM a lot of headway in how they deal with absenteeism. Having a standard is good, rather than inconsistency IN game... but I personally do not see the need for a specific rule.