WebMafia Olympics: Bonus Qualification Round

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

I was not online at EoD. Due to RL circumstances, I was not able to post before Eod. I was not aware of this before EoD and I was planning to return.
If anyone saw me on WebDip between the time that I made my last d1 post and EoD, speak up.
I was not involved in some grand conspiracy to eliminate Haze. I openly scumread Haze and gave my reasons for doing so. Wagoning a scummy player is not a valid reason to scumread me. I consider this topic closed.

On the other hand, I find it very interesting that multiple people suddenly pivoted to Haze at EoD.

[Yoyoyozo]

I responded to yoyo's appeal instinctively and then was just trying to avoid a tie.

That's funny because your timing wasn't in that critical condition; there was time to assess. There were only 7 minutes left when yoyo posted his "get off me" message. I assessed that as he was addressing me directly he was probably town reahing out to a (correct) townread. Now, I'm more on the fence and he may have fooled me. I just dunno.

You originally stated that you believed there was scum in the 3 wagons of Haze, Will, and Flavius. What do you believe now? Well, we know Haze is scum. I would put chance at least one scum in {Will, Flav} at slightly more than 17/45 (true probability from mpov all else being equal).

You actually addressed voting Haze and yoyo both in your "reads" post, so good for you for sticking to it, I guess. However there was no indication about "why" for either one. Why not? I got no big reasons outside gut/vibes. I got suckered in by yoyo's appeal and after that just wanted to kill someone outside of {Bunny, yoyo} concentrating on tie-avoidance.

Your votes came without qualification, as though you weren't convinced about either one.

Agh my eyes!

[Jamiet99uk]

Okay I couldn’t have been the only one who picked up on that.

Can I point out that Dip&War was alleging that I was trying hard to shift attention away from the wagon on HAZE.

HAZE who has flipped TOWN.

Dip&War was, when the above was posted, obsessed with the idea that he had solved the game because it was 100% certain that Haze and Jamie were Mafia team-mates.

We now KNOW that was FALSE.

Yes?
You and Haze were acting scummy. Haze had been writing bad posts and you seemed eager to pivot away from haze. I scumread you because you were scummy.

Also, don't think you're off the hook because Haze flipped town. I don't know what exactly happened between you and will, but it doesn't look good for either of you.

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

[Yoyoyozo]

Can I point out that Dip&War was alleging that I was trying hard to shift attention away from the wagon on HAZE.

HAZE who has flipped TOWN.

Dip&War was, when the above was posted, obsessed with the idea that he had solved the game because it was 100% certain that Haze and Jamie were Mafia team-mates.

We now KNOW that was FALSE.

Yes?
You and Haze were acting scummy. Haze had been writing bad posts and you seemed eager to pivot away from haze. I scumread you because you were scummy.

Also, don't think you're off the hook because Haze flipped town. I don't know what exactly happened between you and will, but it doesn't look good for either of you.

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

[Jamiet99uk]

Can I point out that Dip&War was alleging that I was trying hard to shift attention away from the wagon on HAZE.

HAZE who has flipped TOWN.

Dip&War was, when the above was posted, obsessed with the idea that he had solved the game because it was 100% certain that Haze and Jamie were Mafia team-mates.

We now KNOW that was FALSE.

Yes?
You and Haze were acting scummy. Haze had been writing bad posts and you seemed eager to pivot away from haze. I scumread you because you were scummy.

Also, don't think you're off the hook because Haze flipped town. I don't know what exactly happened between you and will, but it doesn't look good for either of you.

My point isn’t that you switched off Haze. The fact that he flipped town means nothing unless you knew he was town, which would only be the case if your were mafia.

My point is that a few players have a tendency to go after players who can’t defend themselves. This creates bandwagons with other active players and makes it way more likely that miskills happens. Looking back, Haze wasn’t particularly scummy but I know I’m not scum so it was a decent call on my end. I’m going to sound hypocritical but I tend to think it’s a good idea to kill lurkers, this was just very circumstantial inactivity (not really lurking because I didn’t read the thread) on my end.

You do sound hypocritical, yes.

I also can't see how you reconcile "it's bad to go after players who can't defend themselves" while also saying "it's good to kill lurkers", when I voted Flavius specifically because he appeared to be lurking.

In any case painting Flavius as some kind of poor little lamb who cannot defend himself is not very accurate if you ask me.

[Jamiet99uk]

When I ask Yoyoyozo a question, Dip&War answers it.

When I ask Dip&War a question, Yoyoyozo answers it.

Interesting.

[Yoyoyozo]

When I ask Yoyoyozo a question, Dip&War answers it.

When I ask Dip&War a question, Yoyoyozo answers it.

Interesting.

It’s interesting when I say something, you ask a question that would have been answered had you paid attention.

[ghug]

I feel very strongly about this after the M90 incident

Meh. D1 is a crapshoot. Lurkers are a problem later, and later starts early in a game this small.

I'm sorry you died.

I’m sorry I ruined your game 1 ghug. Are you still mad at me?

Spirit ruined my game one and I don't fault him for it one bit.

Also I missed every EoD and didn't assert myself on the night action so there's that.

[ghug]

Yes?
You and Haze were acting scummy. Haze had been writing bad posts and you seemed eager to pivot away from haze. I scumread you because you were scummy.

Also, don't think you're off the hook because Haze flipped town. I don't know what exactly happened between you and will, but it doesn't look good for either of you.

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

[ghug]

When I ask Yoyoyozo a question, Dip&War answers it.

When I ask Dip&War a question, Yoyoyozo answers it.

Interesting.

That's not it

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

When I ask Yoyoyozo a question, Dip&War answers it.

When I ask Dip&War a question, Yoyoyozo answers it.

Interesting.

It's not like people can't throw in their own opinions.

[DiplomacyandWarfare]

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

I think Jamiet was actually just pushing his reads at that point. Although, I do wish he show those in a more organized and less passive-aggressive manner

[Yoyoyozo]

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

lol wait, Jamie is making a kerfuffle about it being proven that He and Haze can’t be mafia together, the proof being that Haze flipped town? And he’s saying him trying to save Haze somehow makes him seem more town? Am I missing something?

[Jamiet99uk]

Can you explain why Scum!Jamie would be motivated to try to save Town Haze from being flipped?

Talk me through the scum motivation for the actions you are ascribing to me, regarding Haze?

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

Exactly, thanks Ghug.

D&W's initial thinking was, as I understood it:

1. Haze is certainly scum
2. Jamiet made a post defending Haze
3. Therefore Jamiet is scum for defending a scum.

Now (1) has been proven to be false, yet D&W is apparently still keen on the idea that I am scum, I was asking D&W, specifically (not Yozo) to review his thinking for me.

[Jamiet99uk]

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

lol wait, Jamie is making a kerfuffle about it being proven that He and Haze can’t be mafia together, the proof being that Haze flipped town? And he’s saying him trying to save Haze somehow makes him seem more town? Am I missing something?

The point you are missing is that D&W argued I was scum because Haze was scum. He first scumread Haze, and then applied his scumread of Haze as the specific reason that I was scum also.

[Yoyoyozo]

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

lol wait, Jamie is making a kerfuffle about it being proven that He and Haze can’t be mafia together, the proof being that Haze flipped town? And he’s saying him trying to save Haze somehow makes him seem more town? Am I missing something?

The point you are missing is that D&W argued I was scum because Haze was scum. He first scumread Haze, and then applied his scumread of Haze as the specific reason that I was scum also.

If you’re going to dance around the point I’m making, I’ll just move on.

[ghug]

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

lol wait, Jamie is making a kerfuffle about it being proven that He and Haze can’t be mafia together, the proof being that Haze flipped town? And he’s saying him trying to save Haze somehow makes him seem more town? Am I missing something?

The former is just how Jamie is. The latter is spillover mixed with opiniom. If there's nefarity it's there.

I'm high on balloon again whoops

[ghug]

The “I told you so” schtick doesn’t work D1. Haze did not post or do anything anything close to clearing himself as so the white-knighting makes it seem like you knew he was town, which would only be the case if you were mafia.

I think you're missing that Jamie's indignant because he was being linked to Haze, not because he was necessarily totally confident in Haze being town.

Exactly, thanks Ghug.

D&W's initial thinking was, as I understood it:

1. Haze is certainly scum
2. Jamiet made a post defending Haze
3. Therefore Jamiet is scum for defending a scum.

Now (1) has been proven to be false, yet D&W is apparently still keen on the idea that I am scum, I was asking D&W, specifically (not Yozo) to review his thinking for me.

I think you're missing that stubbornness is townie.

[Yoyoyozo]

Yes?
You and Haze were acting scummy. Haze had been writing bad posts and you seemed eager to pivot away from haze. I scumread you because you were scummy.

Also, don't think you're off the hook because Haze flipped town. I don't know what exactly happened between you and will, but it doesn't look good for either of you.

My point isn’t that you switched off Haze. The fact that he flipped town means nothing unless you knew he was town, which would only be the case if your were mafia.

My point is that a few players have a tendency to go after players who can’t defend themselves. This creates bandwagons with other active players and makes it way more likely that miskills happens. Looking back, Haze wasn’t particularly scummy but I know I’m not scum so it was a decent call on my end. I’m going to sound hypocritical but I tend to think it’s a good idea to kill lurkers, this was just very circumstantial inactivity (not really lurking because I didn’t read the thread) on my end.

You do sound hypocritical, yes.

I also can't see how you reconcile "it's bad to go after players who can't defend themselves" while also saying "it's good to kill lurkers", when I voted Flavius specifically because he appeared to be lurking.

In any case painting Flavius as some kind of poor little lamb who cannot defend himself is not very accurate if you ask me.

Killing lurkers as a policy is different than spending time trying to make them seem more scummy when you actually just either want them to participate more, or get rid of them for policy reasons.

[Jamiet99uk]

lol wait, Jamie is making a kerfuffle about it being proven that He and Haze can’t be mafia together, the proof being that Haze flipped town? And he’s saying him trying to save Haze somehow makes him seem more town? Am I missing something?

The point you are missing is that D&W argued I was scum because Haze was scum. He first scumread Haze, and then applied his scumread of Haze as the specific reason that I was scum also.

If you’re going to dance around the point I’m making, I’ll just move on.

I am trying to get a response from D&W.

If you have a question for me, ask me.

Otherwise, stop speaking on his behalf, thank you, yes, do feel free to move on.