WebMafia Olympics - Game #2 - Star Trek TNG: The Republic of Q [GAME THREAD]

[President Eden]

Anyway.

&&vote TheFlyingBoat

You’re doing an awful lot of refereeing there bud. You conclusively call my view dumb, but I don’t see where you explained why, nor do I see where you chimed in to back up worcej’s reasoning.

[worcej]

I don’t feel pressure from votes unless it’s EOD. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You’ve accomplished nothing that you couldn’t have accomplished without locking your vote in. Now we just have to hope it doesn’t matter later. I doubt it will, but it might, which is why I’m hashing all this out… you might do it to someone who can’t talk their way out of a bad spot later and it might actually cost us.

You town me yet would vote me EOD now?

Where did you get that from anything I said

I hear you think I am reckless and stupid, but I think that really only applies to my Will vote. I don’t think it is reckless to put my opinion in stone on you (again, soft mechanics is scummy AF here) and now people have to respond to it.

I guess. I’m pretty sure they’re going to roll their eyes and not care. But sure, theoretically they do.

You still haven’t actually said why it’s scummy to soft-vote BTW. It seems just obviously correct and NAI to me.

The soft voting is dumb because we cannot track them with a tool and mean nothing long term. It's the exact same as just saying "I think X is scum", which is again ultimately nothing. In fact, it's actually more of a distraction imho because someone needs to take the time to seek these out and count them to represent them for the group.

Mechanically, this is a game where 2 people per day phase need to die. We need to have a plethora of votes established and not wait until the last second of the phase. The more votes out there make it harder for scum to start influencing with buddying/talking and instead they need to spread votes out via actions.

If I am right about you being scum, then you're at a disadvantage and are 100% wrong on my vote being "nothing".

[President Eden]

You town me yet would vote me EOD now?

Where did you get that from anything I said

I hear you think I am reckless and stupid, but I think that really only applies to my Will vote. I don’t think it is reckless to put my opinion in stone on you (again, soft mechanics is scummy AF here) and now people have to respond to it.

I guess. I’m pretty sure they’re going to roll their eyes and not care. But sure, theoretically they do.

You still haven’t actually said why it’s scummy to soft-vote BTW. It seems just obviously correct and NAI to me.

The soft voting is dumb because we cannot track them with a tool and mean nothing long term. It’s the exact same as just saying “I think X is scum”, which is again ultimately nothing. In fact, it’s actually more of a distraction imho because someone needs to take the time to seek these out and count them to represent them for the group.

Mechanically, this is a game where 2 people per day phase need to die. We need to have a plethora of votes established and not wait until the last second of the phase. The more votes out there make it harder for scum to start influencing with buddying/talking and instead they need to spread votes out via actions.

If I am right about you being scum, then you’re at a disadvantage and are 100% wrong on my vote being “nothing”.

We will probably have to do some manual tracking in any case, but I think I agree with you actually that it’s logistically more trouble than it’s worth. (Which is just me saying “not it” to being the soft vote counting czar lol…)

I don’t think the rest of what you’re saying follows, though. Can you develop it more? Because to me, the more locked-in votes there are, the more info scum has to figure out how they need to manipulate the game. Sure, it reduces their options, but it reduces our options too.

This reads like more of an indictment of being reticent to vote once your suspicions are developed, which I agree with fundamentally… but then you’re applying it 3 hours into the game, which doesn’t make sense.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Anyway.

&&vote TheFlyingBoat

You’re doing an awful lot of refereeing there bud. You conclusively call my view dumb, but I don’t see where you explained why, nor do I see where you chimed in to back up worcej’s reasoning.

I explained that because of the lack of the bot to enable tracking, the soft votes being poorly tracked is probably mafia-sided. To further elaborate on why, I think that without mod-tracking of soft votes, which won't happen since they aren't real votes, we are going to be left in a world where the soft votes are player tracked. Given that when I try to search all I get is

Information
Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. The server has high load. Please try again later.

searching for &&vote probably will be largely doomed to failure. I think it's a way to look great on defensive ISOs when mafia get pressure and a poor way to scum hunt. I think you think that it will be far more analogues to traditional play with the real votes essentially being after the fact matters after the traditional play is resolved, but I just don't see things playing out like that since I suspect "accidental" drop votes will be all too common and easily excused and done in ways that are anti-town or potentially just not tracked at all, which once again leads to post-hoc defensive ISOs off of fake contributions rather than real scumhunting that helps advance the game state in a positive manner.

I think you're earnestly motivated in your push of it, but I think it will be abused by mafia players whereas I think real votes, used judiciously will keep mafia on their toes and also make it harder to manipulate the top two wagons in a late scramble.

If it were a one-day and not a double-day and if we had the bot or functional search, I'd probably agree with you more, but from my POV, I think it makes the end result overly manipulatable and the difference between fake vote and real vote combined with the double day .

Because as far as I can tell with unlimited votes the question is just as much who do you want to save as who do you want to kill.

tbh this reeks of more an omgus because you're mad I called you dumb and agreed with worcej more

[TheFlyingBoat]

Also anyone know where damo went? It seems like he dropped that one question then bounced.

[President Eden]

Yeah I won’t lie, I didn’t think about the logistics of tracking those votes without bot search lol. I think y’all are right on that.

I’m not really following the ISOs comment in light of that though, because there’s not really going to be ISOs this game lol. If anyone is motivated enough to go back and ctrl-f your posts and read them then they can see where you’re pushing with or without a soft vote. So while I begrudgingly agree that it’s not accomplishing anything, I also don’t see where it’s a ripe ground for manipulation either.

…and even granting that soft voting is pointless, I still don’t see where flinging votes around like candy so early is useful either lol. So yeah sure, point taken, soft voting is silly. What’s dumb about not needlessly locking a vote somewhere potentially bad later?

[worcej]

Also anyone know where damo went? It seems like he dropped that one question then bounced.

British - it's late for him, he's probably asleep.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Yeah I won’t lie, I didn’t think about the logistics of tracking those votes without bot search lol. I think y’all are right on that.

I’m not really following the ISOs comment in light of that though, because there’s not really going to be ISOs this game lol. If anyone is motivated enough to go back and ctrl-f your posts and read them then they can see where you’re pushing with or without a soft vote. So while I begrudgingly agree that it’s not accomplishing anything, I also don’t see where it’s a ripe ground for manipulation either.

…and even granting that soft voting is pointless, I still don’t see where flinging votes around like candy so early is useful either lol. So yeah sure, point taken, soft voting is silly. What’s dumb about not needlessly locking a vote somewhere potentially bad later?

I was talking about defensive ISOs, i.e. ISOs initiated by a player to defend themselves where they make certain comments with the expectation they can bring them up and coast on them later. These are great for that while lacking the utility we normally have when we lead ISOs on scum and see mafia-leaning behavior through those votes

[TheFlyingBoat]

Also anyone know where damo went? It seems like he dropped that one question then bounced.

British - it's late for him, he's probably asleep.

oh duh ty

[President Eden]

Yeah I won’t lie, I didn’t think about the logistics of tracking those votes without bot search lol. I think y’all are right on that.

I’m not really following the ISOs comment in light of that though, because there’s not really going to be ISOs this game lol. If anyone is motivated enough to go back and ctrl-f your posts and read them then they can see where you’re pushing with or without a soft vote. So while I begrudgingly agree that it’s not accomplishing anything, I also don’t see where it’s a ripe ground for manipulation either.

…and even granting that soft voting is pointless, I still don’t see where flinging votes around like candy so early is useful either lol. So yeah sure, point taken, soft voting is silly. What’s dumb about not needlessly locking a vote somewhere potentially bad later?

I was talking about defensive ISOs, i.e. ISOs initiated by a player to defend themselves where they make certain comments with the expectation they can bring them up and coast on them later. These are great for that while lacking the utility we normally have when we lead ISOs on scum and see mafia-leaning behavior through those votes

Aside from being able to ctrl-f them, I don’t see why this is any different from any other comment.

I think I’ve come around to the fact that my idea was half-baked. I’m still not seeing how it’s scummy. But worcej can’t change his vote anyway, and you don’t think it’s scummy (merely dumb), so I guess it’s a pointless question and I’ll leave it be.

[worcej]

Where did you get that from anything I said


I guess. I’m pretty sure they’re going to roll their eyes and not care. But sure, theoretically they do.

You still haven’t actually said why it’s scummy to soft-vote BTW. It seems just obviously correct and NAI to me.

The soft voting is dumb because we cannot track them with a tool and mean nothing long term. It’s the exact same as just saying “I think X is scum”, which is again ultimately nothing. In fact, it’s actually more of a distraction imho because someone needs to take the time to seek these out and count them to represent them for the group.

Mechanically, this is a game where 2 people per day phase need to die. We need to have a plethora of votes established and not wait until the last second of the phase. The more votes out there make it harder for scum to start influencing with buddying/talking and instead they need to spread votes out via actions.

If I am right about you being scum, then you’re at a disadvantage and are 100% wrong on my vote being “nothing”.

We will probably have to do some manual tracking in any case, but I think I agree with you actually that it’s logistically more trouble than it’s worth. (Which is just me saying “not it” to being the soft vote counting czar lol…)

I don’t think the rest of what you’re saying follows, though. Can you develop it more? Because to me, the more locked-in votes there are, the more info scum has to figure out how they need to manipulate the game. Sure, it reduces their options, but it reduces our options too.

This reads like more of an indictment of being reticent to vote once your suspicions are developed, which I agree with fundamentally… but then you’re applying it 3 hours into the game, which doesn’t make sense.

I think I find it more easy to see the public manipulation of votes by scum and makes VCA far more revealing over the course of the game. I want scum to have to make shit takes and place opportunistic votes to be caught.

With no bot, posts/words are going to be hard to back-track and check so it's better to be firm and establish positions so that it's locked into the game-state. No one is going to forget I scummed you and voted Will - that's locked and will be repeated. People can forget what your thoughts were as the game gets to 40+ pages.

[worcej]

Yeah I won’t lie, I didn’t think about the logistics of tracking those votes without bot search lol. I think y’all are right on that.

I’m not really following the ISOs comment in light of that though, because there’s not really going to be ISOs this game lol. If anyone is motivated enough to go back and ctrl-f your posts and read them then they can see where you’re pushing with or without a soft vote. So while I begrudgingly agree that it’s not accomplishing anything, I also don’t see where it’s a ripe ground for manipulation either.

…and even granting that soft voting is pointless, I still don’t see where flinging votes around like candy so early is useful either lol. So yeah sure, point taken, soft voting is silly. What’s dumb about not needlessly locking a vote somewhere potentially bad later?

I was talking about defensive ISOs, i.e. ISOs initiated by a player to defend themselves where they make certain comments with the expectation they can bring them up and coast on them later. These are great for that while lacking the utility we normally have when we lead ISOs on scum and see mafia-leaning behavior through those votes

Aside from being able to ctrl-f them, I don’t see why this is any different from any other comment.

I think I’ve come around to the fact that my idea was half-baked. I’m still not seeing how it’s scummy. But worcej can’t change his vote anyway, and you don’t think it’s scummy (merely dumb), so I guess it’s a pointless question and I’ll leave it be.

I've over-explained why I think it's scummy but I know you don't agree with the notion lol

[President Eden]

It’s pointless to hash out any further anyway. You’ll come around, I’ll have one vote on me at EOD (just kidding, Chaqa will read this and be sure to vote me at some point just to make me wrong), and we’ll laugh about it in postgame.

Plus I have a pretty strong townread on you now, so mission accomplished for you I guess lol. Boat might be ok too

[Chaqa]

It’s pointless to hash out any further anyway. You’ll come around, I’ll have one vote on me at EOD (just kidding, Chaqa will read this and be sure to vote me at some point just to make me wrong), and we’ll laugh about it in postgame.

Plus I have a pretty strong townread on you now, so mission accomplished for you I guess lol. Boat might be ok too

##Vote Eden

I gotchu fam

[Chaqa]

Alright let me go read this setup and then catch up. I like that it’s only five pages

[Chaqa]

Oh I fucked up didn’t I

[Chaqa]

I think I townread worcej for this though

Second this

[Chaqa]

Classic Eden play, negging worcej and then trying to buddy him

Join me and vote for him?

Not yet lol that was a joke. I disagree with Eden and think that without the bot, the soft vote mechanic is probably mafia-sided, but I don't think based on his reasoning and wording that it was scummy but rather him just being dumb. Open to having my mind changed by you that it was scummy or by Eden that he's right, but for me, I think town is going to be active early while scum plays a little apprehensive during D1 of a double day, before pushing onto town-generated wagons on town in the mid-to-end of D1.

What makes soft vote mafia sided? I’m curious to hear why

[Chaqa]

This line of reasoning completely misses the point of why pressure voting works.

Let’s say I actually think Chaqa is mafia here for whatever reason. In a normal game, I park my vote on him and try to grill him on whatever my reason is. Maybe Chaqa doesn’t care and blows me off. But maybe he is worried I’m onto him. He then tries to persuade me I’m wrong, and in doing so, he has to take committal stances that can potentially expose him later. He takes this risk because I hold the potential reward of unvoting him and voting for someone who might be town instead.

Here? He just laughs me off and focuses on the rest of the game. I no longer have any leverage on him, so he no longer has a reason to engage me. If he’s too blatant about blowing me off, maybe the other players get concerned. But that’s pretty easy to stage manage.

Sounds like using a position of power to climb the stairs of success

[TheFlyingBoat]

Join me and vote for him?

Not yet lol that was a joke. I disagree with Eden and think that without the bot, the soft vote mechanic is probably mafia-sided, but I don't think based on his reasoning and wording that it was scummy but rather him just being dumb. Open to having my mind changed by you that it was scummy or by Eden that he's right, but for me, I think town is going to be active early while scum plays a little apprehensive during D1 of a double day, before pushing onto town-generated wagons on town in the mid-to-end of D1.

What makes soft vote mafia sided? I’m curious to hear why

Soft-vote under present conditions are imo: https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=421786#p421786

I don't think in general they are. If we had the bot up I'd probably be in favor.