WebMafia Olympics - Game #2 - Star Trek TNG: The Republic of Q [GAME THREAD]

[worcej]

I think I townread worcej for this though

Classic Eden play, negging worcej and then trying to buddy him

Join me and vote for him?

[worcej]

I think I townread worcej for this though

Classic Eden play, negging worcej and then trying to buddy him

I wouldn't label this as buddying lol

[President Eden]

##vote Eden

Soft voting is stupid and honestly anti-town in my opinion. It’s not actually any pressure.

I’m not worried about this coming up with me, but I think it’s stupid and reckless to throw a vote out that you can’t take back this early in the phase without any idea how the day is going to develop. So I’d like you to explain the alternative view because it’s not obvious to me at all

I think it’s far more helpful for me as a town player to put my firm fist down on you for pushing the “soft votes” because ultimately they mean nothing and should be treated as such.

So, FWIW, I don’t think I wasted my vote on you. I firmly believe you’re scummy for pushing a soft mechanic to keep the gamestate in a controlled state.

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

[TheFlyingBoat]

I think I townread worcej for this though

Classic Eden play, negging worcej and then trying to buddy him

Join me and vote for him?

Not yet lol that was a joke. I disagree with Eden and think that without the bot, the soft vote mechanic is probably mafia-sided, but I don't think based on his reasoning and wording that it was scummy but rather him just being dumb. Open to having my mind changed by you that it was scummy or by Eden that he's right, but for me, I think town is going to be active early while scum plays a little apprehensive during D1 of a double day, before pushing onto town-generated wagons on town in the mid-to-end of D1.

[TheFlyingBoat]

I’m not worried about this coming up with me, but I think it’s stupid and reckless to throw a vote out that you can’t take back this early in the phase without any idea how the day is going to develop. So I’d like you to explain the alternative view because it’s not obvious to me at all

I think it’s far more helpful for me as a town player to put my firm fist down on you for pushing the “soft votes” because ultimately they mean nothing and should be treated as such.

So, FWIW, I don’t think I wasted my vote on you. I firmly believe you’re scummy for pushing a soft mechanic to keep the gamestate in a controlled state.

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

Can you explain why it means nothing? IMO the fact it can't be taken back makes it a credible threat. Unless you're arguing the wanton nature of it makes it not mean anything?

[President Eden]

This line of reasoning completely misses the point of why pressure voting works.

Let’s say I actually think Chaqa is mafia here for whatever reason. In a normal game, I park my vote on him and try to grill him on whatever my reason is. Maybe Chaqa doesn’t care and blows me off. But maybe he is worried I’m onto him. He then tries to persuade me I’m wrong, and in doing so, he has to take committal stances that can potentially expose him later. He takes this risk because I hold the potential reward of unvoting him and voting for someone who might be town instead.

Here? He just laughs me off and focuses on the rest of the game. I no longer have any leverage on him, so he no longer has a reason to engage me. If he’s too blatant about blowing me off, maybe the other players get concerned. But that’s pretty easy to stage manage.

[President Eden]

I think it’s far more helpful for me as a town player to put my firm fist down on you for pushing the “soft votes” because ultimately they mean nothing and should be treated as such.

So, FWIW, I don’t think I wasted my vote on you. I firmly believe you’re scummy for pushing a soft mechanic to keep the gamestate in a controlled state.

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

Can you explain why it means nothing? IMO the fact it can’t be taken back makes it a credible threat. Unless you’re arguing the wanton nature of it makes it not mean anything?

I crossposted, but I will also add that the trigger-happy nature of the votes in these cases aren’t persuasive. But that’s more a style thing than anything substantial, IMO. You could always cast committal votes in a way that looks less hipfire and more deliberate to avoid that pitfall. But there’s no getting around the fact that you lose all leverage on the player you just voted and thus have no way to pressure them further.

[GlitterBomb]

Hi There! I’m just gonna be fully transparent here and admit that this is my first mafia game. Brain ran me through what all the different terms and such are, but I am definitely going to be learning. Another plus is that my hubby has forced me to watch SNG and especially all of the Q episodes, so at least I understand that!

Not 100% sure what we are supposed to talk about? Do you all just start throwing out suspicions to see what happens?

Looking forward to it!

First mafia game here, online on a forum, or just period ever?

Ever! I’ve listened to Brian ramble on about his experiences and I’ve played like Resistance before, but this is all new.

[worcej]

I’m not worried about this coming up with me, but I think it’s stupid and reckless to throw a vote out that you can’t take back this early in the phase without any idea how the day is going to develop. So I’d like you to explain the alternative view because it’s not obvious to me at all

I think it’s far more helpful for me as a town player to put my firm fist down on you for pushing the “soft votes” because ultimately they mean nothing and should be treated as such.

So, FWIW, I don’t think I wasted my vote on you. I firmly believe you’re scummy for pushing a soft mechanic to keep the gamestate in a controlled state.

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

I disagree that my vote means nothing - I've established I think you should be killed.

The only way it's not a "credible threat" is if people don't agree with me and don't vote for you. But the beauty of this setup is that I think it's more important to pick who you wouldn't vote for more than who you should.

[GlitterBomb]

Hi There! I’m just gonna be fully transparent here and admit that this is my first mafia game. Brain ran me through what all the different terms and such are, but I am definitely going to be learning. Another plus is that my hubby has forced me to watch SNG and especially all of the Q episodes, so at least I understand that!

Not 100% sure what we are supposed to talk about? Do you all just start throwing out suspicions to see what happens?

Looking forward to it!

Hi glitter! The WIFOM isnt hard to understand, but the VCA could be, just dont CFD me!

WIFOM is a princess bride reference isn’t it? That’s an easy one to remember! But you’re gonna have me perpetually looking all of these up, aren’t you?! Gee thanks!

[worcej]

This line of reasoning completely misses the point of why pressure voting works.

Let’s say I actually think Chaqa is mafia here for whatever reason. In a normal game, I park my vote on him and try to grill him on whatever my reason is. Maybe Chaqa doesn’t care and blows me off. But maybe he is worried I’m onto him. He then tries to persuade me I’m wrong, and in doing so, he has to take committal stances that can potentially expose him later. He takes this risk because I hold the potential reward of unvoting him and voting for someone who might be town instead.

Here? He just laughs me off and focuses on the rest of the game. I no longer have any leverage on him, so he no longer has a reason to engage me. If he’s too blatant about blowing me off, maybe the other players get concerned. But that’s pretty easy to stage manage.

I guess we fundamentally think differently about votes in games - I don't feel "pressure" from votes unless I am a PR and it's near the end of a phase or I won't be able to claim near EoP.

If you choose not to engage with me because I have now permanently voted for you, that's more scummy than towny immediately and people should see that if they're actually looking for scum.

[President Eden]

This example probably isn’t going to help anyone in this game, but I’ve had the opportunity to approach a similar problem in my career over the past few months, as I’ve started arguing before a panel of judges in-person and helping with prep on top of just writing briefs.

When you’re arguing before a panel, one of the best things you can do for yourself to manage your limited time is try to discern if some of the judges are already locked in. In my jurisdiction, one judge on the panel of five is notorious for basically dropping his hand on the table ASAP. You know exactly where he is within 30 seconds of the argument starting. The correct play is to give him as little attention and as little of your time as possible. Why? If he’s on your side, you’re wasting resources on a vote you already have. If he’s not, he won’t ever be, and you’re doing something even worse—wasting resources on a vote you’ll never get. The ones who at least appear to be undecided get your focus. Of course, if you know a judge is not on your side but could reasonably be flipped, that becomes your top focus.

I think this situation is pretty obviously analogous. In a normal game, my vote on damo comes with the implicit rider that it might move if he behaves the right way. This incentivizes him to try to behave the right way, which is revealing. In this game, my vote on damo comes with the explicit promise that no matter how town he looks to me the rest of the phase, my vote is parked.

[worcej]

Classic Eden play, negging worcej and then trying to buddy him

Join me and vote for him?

Not yet lol that was a joke. I disagree with Eden and think that without the bot, the soft vote mechanic is probably mafia-sided, but I don't think based on his reasoning and wording that it was scummy but rather him just being dumb. Open to having my mind changed by you that it was scummy or by Eden that he's right, but for me, I think town is going to be active early while scum plays a little apprehensive during D1 of a double day, before pushing onto town-generated wagons on town in the mid-to-end of D1.

Eden isn't dumb. He's very calculating.

He can be wrong, but if you think he's dumb here then I think you're mistaken for that reasoning.

[President Eden]

I think it’s far more helpful for me as a town player to put my firm fist down on you for pushing the “soft votes” because ultimately they mean nothing and should be treated as such.

So, FWIW, I don’t think I wasted my vote on you. I firmly believe you’re scummy for pushing a soft mechanic to keep the gamestate in a controlled state.

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

I disagree that my vote means nothing - I’ve established I think you should be killed.

The only way it’s not a “credible threat” is if people don’t agree with me and don’t vote for you. But the beauty of this setup is that I think it’s more important to pick who you wouldn’t vote for more than who you should.

You’re not considering opportunity cost. You could have said “I think Eden needs to be killed” and accomplished the exact same thing you’ve accomplished right now from a pressure perspective. But now you don’t have the chance to change your mind when you later realize you should.

You seem to think that because I don’t want to hard vote ASAP that I won’t take committal stances on people, pressure my suspects, or do any of the usual things I do to catch mafia. You’ve gone all-in on this wrong belief not even 3 hours into the day. No offense homie, that’s stupid and reckless.

[President Eden]

This line of reasoning completely misses the point of why pressure voting works.

Let’s say I actually think Chaqa is mafia here for whatever reason. In a normal game, I park my vote on him and try to grill him on whatever my reason is. Maybe Chaqa doesn’t care and blows me off. But maybe he is worried I’m onto him. He then tries to persuade me I’m wrong, and in doing so, he has to take committal stances that can potentially expose him later. He takes this risk because I hold the potential reward of unvoting him and voting for someone who might be town instead.

Here? He just laughs me off and focuses on the rest of the game. I no longer have any leverage on him, so he no longer has a reason to engage me. If he’s too blatant about blowing me off, maybe the other players get concerned. But that’s pretty easy to stage manage.

I guess we fundamentally think differently about votes in games - I don’t feel “pressure” from votes unless I am a PR and it’s near the end of a phase or I won’t be able to claim near EoP.

If you choose not to engage with me because I have now permanently voted for you, that’s more scummy than towny immediately and people should see that if they’re actually looking for scum.

I don’t feel pressure from votes unless it’s EOD. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You’ve accomplished nothing that you couldn’t have accomplished without locking your vote in. Now we just have to hope it doesn’t matter later. I doubt it will, but it might, which is why I’m hashing all this out… you might do it to someone who can’t talk their way out of a bad spot later and it might actually cost us.

[worcej]

Your vote also “means nothing” here. It’s not a credible threat. And you can’t even take it back, so now what?

I disagree that my vote means nothing - I’ve established I think you should be killed.

The only way it’s not a “credible threat” is if people don’t agree with me and don’t vote for you. But the beauty of this setup is that I think it’s more important to pick who you wouldn’t vote for more than who you should.

You’re not considering opportunity cost. You could have said “I think Eden needs to be killed” and accomplished the exact same thing you’ve accomplished right now from a pressure perspective. But now you don’t have the chance to change your mind when you later realize you should.

You seem to think that because I don’t want to hard vote ASAP that I won’t take committal stances on people, pressure my suspects, or do any of the usual things I do to catch mafia. You’ve gone all-in on this wrong belief not even 3 hours into the day. No offense homie, that’s stupid and reckless.

You're assuming I think people would listen to me and actually care that I think I stated "Eden should die". I don't think me saying "I think Eden is scum here" is a lost opportunity because I don't think anyone would care, or would just disagree with me here.

I hear you think I am reckless and stupid, but I think that really only applies to my Will vote. I don't think it is reckless to put my opinion in stone on you (again, soft mechanics is scummy AF here) and now people have to respond to it.

[worcej]

This line of reasoning completely misses the point of why pressure voting works.

Let’s say I actually think Chaqa is mafia here for whatever reason. In a normal game, I park my vote on him and try to grill him on whatever my reason is. Maybe Chaqa doesn’t care and blows me off. But maybe he is worried I’m onto him. He then tries to persuade me I’m wrong, and in doing so, he has to take committal stances that can potentially expose him later. He takes this risk because I hold the potential reward of unvoting him and voting for someone who might be town instead.

Here? He just laughs me off and focuses on the rest of the game. I no longer have any leverage on him, so he no longer has a reason to engage me. If he’s too blatant about blowing me off, maybe the other players get concerned. But that’s pretty easy to stage manage.

I guess we fundamentally think differently about votes in games - I don’t feel “pressure” from votes unless I am a PR and it’s near the end of a phase or I won’t be able to claim near EoP.

If you choose not to engage with me because I have now permanently voted for you, that’s more scummy than towny immediately and people should see that if they’re actually looking for scum.

I don’t feel pressure from votes unless it’s EOD. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You’ve accomplished nothing that you couldn’t have accomplished without locking your vote in. Now we just have to hope it doesn’t matter later. I doubt it will, but it might, which is why I’m hashing all this out… you might do it to someone who can’t talk their way out of a bad spot later and it might actually cost us.

You town me yet would vote me EOD now?

[President Eden]

I guess we fundamentally think differently about votes in games - I don’t feel “pressure” from votes unless I am a PR and it’s near the end of a phase or I won’t be able to claim near EoP.

If you choose not to engage with me because I have now permanently voted for you, that’s more scummy than towny immediately and people should see that if they’re actually looking for scum.

I don’t feel pressure from votes unless it’s EOD. That’s exactly what I’m saying. You’ve accomplished nothing that you couldn’t have accomplished without locking your vote in. Now we just have to hope it doesn’t matter later. I doubt it will, but it might, which is why I’m hashing all this out… you might do it to someone who can’t talk their way out of a bad spot later and it might actually cost us.

You town me yet would vote me EOD now?

Where did you get that from anything I said

I hear you think I am reckless and stupid, but I think that really only applies to my Will vote. I don’t think it is reckless to put my opinion in stone on you (again, soft mechanics is scummy AF here) and now people have to respond to it.

I guess. I’m pretty sure they’re going to roll their eyes and not care. But sure, theoretically they do.

You still haven’t actually said why it’s scummy to soft-vote BTW. It seems just obviously correct and NAI to me.

[worcej]

Perhaps it's my whole "I don't value my own life over another VT" schtick, but I think it's weird you'd imply you could negate my vote by voting me for something when you town me...

[President Eden]

Perhaps it’s my whole “I don’t value my own life over another VT” schtick, but I think it’s weird you’d imply you could negate my vote by voting me for something when you town me…

I’m not sure where we got tangled up, but I’m saying that I’m hashing this out with you because I don’t want you to commit vote someone else prematurely, who might be more vulnerable to being miskilled, lest it cause problems for trying to kill a better suspect later