M 1029: The webMafia Olympics game 1 SPY VS SPY

[Yoyoyozo]

I just thought of an absolutely hilarious scenario. If we eliminate a spy today, the other spy could claim and convert the rest of town if we allow them.We could just chit chat in the meantime

is that playing to wincon for those who remain town?

It is if we eliminate the lurkers

[brainbomb]

Also, however 3 of those 5 would all be sweet.

Sorry sweet

[Yoyoyozo]

No kill folks are forgetting the mafia are two different teams whose main win condition is eliminating each other. People are counting them as the same team in their logic, makes no sense. They want to kill each other way more than town because if they do, they get an optional nk and cannot be nked themselves. That means surviving town will likely be able to coast for some time while they duke it out making the standard town vs. mafia counting irrelevant until the other team is on the back foot. Plus HB's logic of saying things like well in a couple nights we could have majority mafia and it'll be game over is kind of like... well yeah but also most of us won't be town anymore... idk, you just gotta play your best from the position you're at currently, and to me that means we kill. 1/4 chance of chopping off the head of one mafia team from the get go is a bit too good to pass up to me.

I buy Dip's thinking on this as kind of genuine, HB's a bit too but less so, but I don't really buy Ghug's take on this at all. If it was baiting people to go along with a bad no kill to see who he could catch, I kind of get it, but he definitely wasn't being real there. Everyone being invested in killing day 1 is kind of a main stay of the genre, if that isn't the case the set up is pretty messy, since we just end up sitting around with thumbs in our bums for a while. Game set up makes sense to kill today for town, maybe slightly less so for scum because while they are likely to live, they have a 1/8 chance of losing immediately, I could see safe boy scum wanting a no kill more than a town would. My feeling is ##vote ghug, since he is the only one I feel is being disingenuous so far.

Everyone being invested in killing D1 is a mainstay of mafia. This isn't mafia. There's no connection information to be gleaned today at all.

We have. 1/5 chance of hitting a spy, without the usual mechanic of mafia having a large sway of who flips. We don’t get that luxury later on

[ghug]

I just thought of an absolutely hilarious scenario. If we eliminate a spy today, the other spy could claim and convert the rest of town if we allow them.We could just chit chat in the meantime

The game would end once they outnumber us.

[ghug]

Over last ten games, town has eliminated a mafia day 1 4/10 tries
If you count sweet being shot by a gun day 1 its 5/10 day 1 occurences in past 10 games.

Thats actually alot better than it used to be

It's almost always in the context of a successful mafia bus, though, which won't happen here.

[ghug]

Ok I was hoping y'all would just get this but we're not playing mafia.

Several people have already noted that town is doomed. That's true if we play it like mafia, and it's kind of a feature of the setup. The way town wins this game is by pitting the mafia against each other. Townies can also win this game by being recruited, but my reading of the rules has always been that playing to this outcome runs contrary to playing to one's own win condition (the spectrum of positions on this point kind of undermines the game's whole conceit, which is one of the reasons I'm personally not a fan of recruitment games).

If we kill a townie today, we have less ability to effect our will as the game progresses further. If we kill scum today, there's no counterweight to the other scum team. We go into tomorrow in what's basically a brand new 7v2 mafia game in which we have no PRs, scum has twice as much power as a normal mafia team to reduce the number disparity as long as their leader is alive, and every new recruit is going to lack connections to their teammates. Town is unlikely to win that game. We need the Mafia team to be threats to each other.

We normally kill D1 for two reasons, neither of which applies here:
1. To start getting voting information. Bozo has already pointed out that this doesn't work when the mafia don't have teammates. I'm a little bit shocked Bona didn't notice this.
2. Because our numbers advantage will only get worse over time. This isn't applicable here for the reasons I laid out above.

[Bonatogether]

gorg i disagree

[SpiritoftheRadio]

here I was killing day 1 my entire life because you have a chance of killing scum and winning the game. As opposed to no chance at all of getting scum and usually 100% chance of one town dying (or being recruited) each day you do nothing. Info and catching scum by hunting is nice and all, and we can get that by pursuing a kill anyway, but also the win condition isn't pitting mafia against each other, the win condition is killing them. Always has been. Still is in this game. Why isn't that in your list?

[ghug]

gorg i disagree

Is that so

[ghug]

here I was killing day 1 my entire life because you have a chance of killing scum and winning the game. As opposed to no chance at all of getting scum and usually 100% chance of one town dying (or being recruited) each day you do nothing. Info and catching scum by hunting is nice and all, and we can get that by pursuing a kill anyway, but also the win condition isn't pitting mafia against each other, the win condition is killing them. Always has been. Still is in this game. Why isn't that in your list?

It's an implied facet of point two. The only way town wins a normal game is by directing kills. No killing means fewer kills. Usually the debate is "why should we kill if our odds are low?", so that's how it's framed.

I explained in my post that I don't think killing scum is even actually to our benefit, and the other benefits to risking killing a townie is not there.

[Bonatogether]

gorg i disagree

Is that so

we're at 7-1-1 no-killing puts us into d2 5-2-2 with zero information - not even an nk. what's the information we receive that helps us find scum? let it roll to 3-3-3? then it's just a game of which scum team gets dked first. we need cards on the table and we need it sooner rather than later

[Bonatogether]

gorg i disagree

Is that so

we're at 7-1-1. no-killing puts us into d2 5-2-2 with zero information - not even an nk. what's the information we receive that helps us find scum? let it roll to 3-3-3? then it's just a game of which scum team gets dked first. we need cards on the table and we need it sooner rather than later

added a period

[ghug]

gorg i disagree

Is that so

we're at 7-1-1 no-killing puts us into d2 5-2-2 with zero information - not even an nk. what's the information we receive that helps us find scum? let it roll to 3-3-3? then it's just a game of which scum team gets dked first. we need cards on the table and we need it sooner rather than later

What information do we get from killing today?

[Bonatogether]

Is that so

we're at 7-1-1 no-killing puts us into d2 5-2-2 with zero information - not even an nk. what's the information we receive that helps us find scum? let it roll to 3-3-3? then it's just a game of which scum team gets dked first. we need cards on the table and we need it sooner rather than later

What information do we get from killing today?

someone's alignment and vca? lmao

[ghug]

we're at 7-1-1 no-killing puts us into d2 5-2-2 with zero information - not even an nk. what's the information we receive that helps us find scum? let it roll to 3-3-3? then it's just a game of which scum team gets dked first. we need cards on the table and we need it sooner rather than later

What information do we get from killing today?

someone's alignment and vca? lmao

How does VCA work when the scum doesn't have teammates? Everyone can earnestly hunt for scum. Nobody has anyone to protect or build connections with.

[Bonatogether]

What information do we get from killing today?

someone's alignment and vca? lmao

How does VCA work when the scum doesn't have teammates? Everyone can earnestly hunt for scum. Nobody has anyone to protect or build connections with.

it works by counting the votes

[ghug]

someone's alignment and vca? lmao

How does VCA work when the scum doesn't have teammates? Everyone can earnestly hunt for scum. Nobody has anyone to protect or build connections with.

it works by counting the votes

A

[ghug]

Reads:
Brain seems sus
Bona's stupidity seems more likely to come from town
I don't think scum Brian pushes a no kill
Good vibes from Haze
That is all

[brainbomb]

R
B
B
I
G
T

Hes either giving a code that hes a frog
Or
Hes decided he supports trump

Not sure which

[bozotheclown]

Ok I was hoping y'all would just get this but we're not playing mafia.

Several people have already noted that town is doomed. That's true if we play it like mafia, and it's kind of a feature of the setup. The way town wins this game is by pitting the mafia against each other. Townies can also win this game by being recruited, but my reading of the rules has always been that playing to this outcome runs contrary to playing to one's own win condition (the spectrum of positions on this point kind of undermines the game's whole conceit, which is one of the reasons I'm personally not a fan of recruitment games).

If we kill a townie today, we have less ability to effect our will as the game progresses further. If we kill scum today, there's no counterweight to the other scum team. We go into tomorrow in what's basically a brand new 7v2 mafia game in which we have no PRs, scum has twice as much power as a normal mafia team to reduce the number disparity as long as their leader is alive, and every new recruit is going to lack connections to their teammates. Town is unlikely to win that game. We need the Mafia team to be threats to each other.

We normally kill D1 for two reasons, neither of which applies here:
1. To start getting voting information. Bozo has already pointed out that this doesn't work when the mafia don't have teammates. I'm a little bit shocked Bona didn't notice this.
2. Because our numbers advantage will only get worse over time. This isn't applicable here for the reasons I laid out above.

I agree the 7 vs. 2 game is not favorable for town, but town still needs both mafia teams to be eliminated to win, so I don't think the alternative is any better.