M 90: Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral

[FlaviusAetius]

Actually I dont think Im wrong, he advocated for MULTIPLE people to get shot D1, and >only< said dont shoot Dip until food flips
THIS post:
g=90&part=Day%201&user=rdrivera2005
rdr doesnt tell Eden that >not< shooting someone is a bad idea but instead makes a generic comment

g=90&part=Day%201&user=rdrivera2005
Says to Eden that shooting worcej is a >good< idea, later clarifies that he >only< wants Dip shot IF food flips scum(again never saying DONT shoot D1 as he claimed)

so Im not >entirely< wrong he was >still< sus about it

[FlaviusAetius]

Ive always felt flav was scum; and was always working obstruction for mafia

WHAT does this even mean? Ive been TRYING to be helpful so how am I >obstructing< anyone...I RESPOND to people whats so >wrong< with that

[FlaviusAetius]

I had to develop a system for reading damo.

If damo annoys me hes town. And he will at some point categorically annoy me with shutting my scumreads down when hes town. And he did that this game

You see what you did with damo >convinced me< but you just didnt do that with me, what you did with me was LAZY its just the truth

[FlaviusAetius]

You arent even responding to me anymore its like Im talking to a >wall<

[FlaviusAetius]

Bozo pushes Jamie for threatening to sub out:
jamie responses there-after

I believe that is an inaccurate trope; I would also point out that, as you know, I have a preference for being scum. If anything I would be less likely to sub out as Mafia, than as Town.

As you have identified with the timestamps, I thought about it, for a few minutes, because I was upset, and then I calmed myself down and changed my mind.

I don't think it's a good idea for you to tunnel on this because the GM is not going to verify whether or not I made a sub request. You either have to accept my word on the matter, or call me a liar.

Bozo voting no kill and advocating it

If enough people do, nothing will happen.

Oh whoops my vote is still on Sweet, that wasn't my intention.

##Vote Bozotheclown for constant weird shenanigans and unwillingness to cast a proper vote.

IMG_0753.jpeg


jamie is very very worried about bozo.
Hes worried about bozo pushing him
Hes worried bozo might get modkilled
Hes worried about what others think of bozo
Hes worries about others VOTING bozo
And hes worried that bozo isnt voting enough

I AGREE with you someone who is advocating to vote for someone >hardcore< but WONT get on the wagon is super sus, >but< I dont get that impression from Jamie >at all< I think you are looking at what he is doing with >bozo< all wrong and you are using it to >defend< bozo Im going to make a >case< on him I dont like his answer on what he did with VECNA

[FlaviusAetius]

I still >dont< understand the case on kotp and no one has actually laid it out besides him just being a >lurker<

[Jamiet99uk]

People I will vote today:

Sweet
Bozo
KOTP

(Sweet and Bozo for reasons I have hopefully made very clear by this point. KOTP because he is the very worst of the lurkers, I'm afraid, and this level of non-participation concerns me).

Why does it concern you? KOTP is just a lurker rdr is a >better< lurker to go after

But it also concerns you, as you went on to say in your next post...

[Jamiet99uk]

Oh right! The desperado shooting day 1 was part of the "protecting your teammates" thing. Regarding my wall post: giving the desperado license to shoot and wondering if they should shoot sweet, or use him as cover by shooting near EOD was giving him a chance to screw up. Shooting day 1 when not in any likely danger was a "bad play" in this mechanic (I was sure food was the desperado when a shot rang out because there was basically no other reason to shoot).

Do you know who >encouraged< Desperado to shoot D1? RDR.

No actually, Ham shot dip because I told him to at the 30 minute mark.

Scum.

[Jamiet99uk]

Ive always felt flav was scum; and was always working obstruction for mafia

WHAT does this even mean? Ive been TRYING to be helpful so how am I >obstructing< anyone...I RESPOND to people whats so >wrong< with that

Brainbomb is jealous that you're posting more than him.

[Jamiet99uk]

I still >dont< understand the case on kotp and no one has actually laid it out besides him just being a >lurker<

That IS the case.

[damo666]

Balki
Brainbomb
Flavius
K-POP

You guys can all be in my Towntree.

Balki lists four people including himself. Could he outrageously be outing the entire scumteam in a fit of overconfidence?
I think he might be.

[brainbomb]

Balki
Brainbomb
Flavius
K-POP

You guys can all be in my Towntree.

Balki lists four people including himself. Could he outrageously be outing the entire scumteam in a fit of overconfidence?
I think he might be.

He adds chaqa as his fifth. Had chaqa not been killed would you have assumed chaqa was a suspect based in that rationale?

[brainbomb]

235 posts from Jamiet? My goodness.

Sometimes I find myself just wanting to kill one of the low posters today because 20 posts is not enough. But then other times I find myself just wanting to kill Jamiet because 235 is too many. And other times I just want to kill sweetandcool because I'd like to see him die.

Towntree
Balki
KPOP
Falvius
Chaqa
Brainbomb

Wouldn't kill Bunnygo or Eden today, even though I don't really know what alignment they are.

I'm not feeling much conviction about anything else.

I still feel like Jamiet's interaction around the fake claims and his pity party seem insincere, and that he is likely our best chance to turn over a scumrock today.

[brainbomb]

Once you add chaqa to the list I fully agree its hard to imagine that Balki was not forcing at least someone into the collective good graces.

[BunnyGo]

OK, my thoughts on games.

Games like tic-tac-toe are not that interesting. This is because it's always possible to (fairly easily) know you're making a move that is guaranteed to not make your position worse. (But I find opening on a corner a nice counter to this when playing children or people who just think "always take center and corners")

Games like chess and go are similar to tic-tac-toe in the sense that it's theoretically possible to do know you're making a move that is guaranteed to not make your position worse, except that they are too complex for humans to solve. So they're interesting again.

Games like basketball are interesting not just for the incorporation of physical skills that most do not possess, but because they incorporate teammates; teams that coordinate better will almost always win. But coordinating is worth more than doing "good plays" that have no support. This is why there's playbooks and the idea that people should be "team players".

But now we take a diversion into "meta games" and "good plays". In chess and go and tic-tac-toe, there are definite "good plays" (whether we know them or not), and there are definite "bad plays" (usually easier to identify) that are just going to make you lose.

In games of non-total information (or some sports where information is total, but hard to react to as a team in the moment) there are plays that are good "in context". Like in MtG a deck that is not great objectively, might be very strong if you know what deck it's facing. This is what is often called part of the "meta game"; moves that are strong in context if you know what others are doing.

In Poker, there's a mix of both "good solid plays" and "meta context" plays. Most players will tell you that you should aim to avoid "obvious error plays" and do your best to make "good solid plays" and just do reads and meta plays as you have them. But this is a game where nobody is on your team.

Now, up till here, I expect most of you are saying "yes Bunny, stop explaining what we all know" but Bridge is different (and mafia different still, but similar to bridge).

In bridge, you have several differences:
1) you have a partner that you've (hopefully, but not always) prepared with, but once the game starts you're no longer allowed to communicate.
2) there is an amount of luck and randomness (less than you might think, but more than nothing) so just because a play failed doesn't mean it was "bad" it just happened to be "wrong" that time
3) Being clever is valued and good, but if your teammate is lost then it will cost you more often than not.

To this end, being a good teammate is harder than in basketball. In basketball you can (and should!) continue to communicate during the game. Same with most other team games. But in bridge, you have to make inferences about what your partner is thinking, what they know, and how they'll react, and do your best to protect them from themselves. There's a number of times it's very correct to make prima face absurd plays (like throwing away an ace, or intentionally playing the king of trump under the ace of trump) to help you partner wake up to a danger.

Bridge is also complicated. My partnership's code and strategy guide and mutual understandings was 60 typed pages. But it was always more important to make sure the benefit of adding to the code outweighed the mental costs and possible errors and strategic costs of doing so. Just because we'd hit an issue where having a different code would have helped didn't necessarily mean it was the right modification for us.

Now to mafia: here we don't know our teammates and that makes it harder still. But we do know that a big part of this game is to try and make it easy for them to find us (while we're trying to find them). One good way to do this is to be yourself; being yourself is easy for you and hard to fake. And in a vanilla game, there's basically nothing else to do.

With mechanics, there adds some extra stuff on top of it. And here's where we end up combining all the previous things. There are some times that there's an "obvious bad" or "obvious good" play (don't vote off an "innocent child" whom the GM has publicly announced is town). But then there are some meta plays (how long to hold information, how to claim, whether to crumb, whether to shoot, whether to role block), where town has been reluctant to fake claim a power because it muddies the water. Brainbomb has claimed in the past (I still remember when he fakeclaimed MY power day 1 when he was on the block and got me speed wagoned. My power was "when you die, you have the option of shooting someone". I decided not to shoot brainbomb because just because your teammate screws up doesn't mean you should compound the error, and I believed he was town).

Having this meta agreement has some costs and benefits:
1) It makes it harder for scum to muddy the waters by fake claiming and get away with it
2) It makes it harder for town to protect a power by fake claiming
3) It makes it harder for some players where being themselves would involve claiming like this

But once the community has this idea, trying to fight it ends up causing troubles in its own right. And it's not obviously a "bad play" to have this agreement, but rather a "meta play", and changing it is not obvious good or bad, but changing it without agreement is obviously bad for the chaos it causes.

Now a big caveat there: if the chaos it causes ends up helping town reveal themselves...well...mafia is a bit unique in that we don't know our teammates and getting them to reveal themselves somehow *is* the game.


OK...that's probably both a bit wordy, a bit too vague at times and had too many digressions. But hopefully something made sense about how I think about all this.

I appreciate the effort you took to write this up, and as a lover of incomplete information games I know what you mean.

I have never come up with a communication guidebook with a partner. I actually enjoy playing with strangers and learning how each one thinks.

I think the big difference is that we are all playing Mafia for fun and we are not professionals. Ideally, there would be no "lurkers" and players would stick to an established meta.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. Town players tend to flout the meta or say/do things that APPEAR anti-town or scummy. Of course, ideally players should strive to play as well as possible.

Sometimes, in order to accurately read your teammates you need to look past mistakes they make and assess their motivation. Skipping this step of critical thinking and just applying a meta rule is what I've essentially been protesting this game.

In the future, I will just focus mostly on solve accuracy. If I get reamed D1 or D2 every game then I can only leave a legacy of accurately solving. This game and last, however, I have played purely from my phone and have not had time or opportunity to focus (my big research cases are mostly formed on my computer), and consequently I have attempted to make myself useful in ways other than presenting rigorous cases.

This was all in response to you getting D1’d?! I thought this was in response to thinking the community was wrong.

I missed that part since I was under the impression after brain pointed out how much you and HB and damo were eating it we’d try not to. Which is yet another reason Brian should have held his shot.

Before you joined up I was on a D1 streak. I actually thought it was good for town to do it because I’d had a strong scum record and bad town record. But it got to the point that I joked my scum tell was surviving day 1. This is why I started the D1 “bit” of talking little and doing so in different characters. It was a way to force myself to focus on the things getting me killed. And a way of focusing on my reading more (hence the GT thoughts…I don’t otherwise take notes but that helped).

I do totally agree we aren’t “professionals” and all show up as much as we do. It’s why I think that idea of “swaddling your teammates” is even more important when playing with “pickup” partnerships. Which is to say, I appreciate your frustration, but doing so in a way that makes it harder for the pickup players to trust you is problematic. I’ll be honest, if the two of us get to KiLo together I’m probably voting you if I can’t figure you out otherwise because I refuse to pay off to this play by scum!sweet.

In bridge there’s a few “standard” codes. And if you agreed to play one with a pickup partner, it’d be incorrect to just throw in an advanced code and hope your partner guessed you were doing it. But that also depended on reading your partner; I once played a drunk pickup partnership at the nationals with a pro whose entire agreement with me was “if a good player would do it, we do it.”

[BunnyGo]

Here are your choices:

POE: Sweet, Jamiet, rdrivera, Fish, Demon, Bozo, worcej, BunnyG

Does Balki put 1 or 2 teammates in here? (Zero or all 3 seem unlikely).

rdr and Bozo?

I agree with you no way Balki busses >three< people anything he says I say we do the OPPOSITE that will be >my< starting point

1 or 2? Do you think it’s 0?

[BunnyGo]

I think my POE is currently at Balki, brain, damo, Demon, KOTP, Lfischl, rivera, worcej

I think Damo is being an undue pass by many.

Given Chaqa was killed I reckon he must have had AT LEAST one more scum in there in addition to Balki. Omitting the dead and obvtowns this leaves {brain, kotp, lfischl, rdr}. I think we should concentrate on this group. My order S=>T is kotp, rdr, brain, lfischl.

We should do the OPPOSITE of what Balki says >not< use his reads as a template

bozotheclown
brainbomb -- NO
BunnyGo
damo666 -- NO
DemonRHK -- NO
Jamiet99uk
kingofthepirates -- NO
lfischl -- NO
rdrivera2005 -- NO
sweetandcool

Most likely = BOZO

You think Balki listed no scum? You don’t think he was trying to pocket people?

Wait, who first joked about him and me in a romance?

[BunnyGo]

No. Still random. Like worcej, he’s banking on his game helping his scum game. By proving a point that we’re dumb (as a community) about the meta currently being used.

Absolutely not. I play the best I can with either alignment. Sandbagging is reprehensible.

I looked this up in the mafia dictionary its >not< there what does this mean

Intentionally tanking this game to help future ones.

[BunnyGo]

This is a weird read:

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs

Oh. Can’t paste what I see. Umm user is Jam* and word search is Balki*

[BunnyGo]

EVERYTHING I do brain makes me scum in your mind and I dont understand it I told you to >make< a list and Ill respond number by number so its very organized just like YOU want. Still >nothing<

Who do you think is town?