Mafia XL - A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

[Vecna]

I townread the following (in no particular order):

Xorxes
thdfrance
worcej
Balki
R ike
rdrivera
Vecna
Szpoti
Bozo
Demon
Jamie

I am Null on

Durga
ND
ghug
peter
squigs
TB

Bo yet to post.

Yav may have scumslipped so ##vote Yav

Please explain your townreads on:
Bozo
Demon
Xorxes
worcej
Balki
R ike

[Vecna]

yavu had a slip in one of his posts (talking about we in reference to scum), and for that I'm on a ##Vote Yavu.

It could've been an inclusive pronoun 'we' equal to impersonal 'one'. But we cannot exclude a subconscious visit of Dr Freud.
And when I say 'we', I really mean 'I'.

When I say 'we', it includes all humans and some artificial intelligences. You understand what I mean. Rhk is trying to make a case on me because he needs reasons to accuse people.
##vote RHK

I understand your reasoning, but if you feel this is scummy your vote should be on Balki for trying to fan the flames there.

One of the two is likely scum in the scenario that you are town. It often is the person trying to get others to make the case for them and divert all attention to an easy mislynch.

[Vecna]

I think damo might be scum. When I was scum last game I legit fear killed him because he was on fire with his play. His reads this game are indicative of low effort and bs. His vote on yav is a pile on it vote. His play is scum play. ##vote damo

Also, he is townreading me. This is quite literally my worst townplay ive done in any game with him, but this somehow warrants a townread as opposed to every single scumread ive had to endure for whatever reasoning?

Good wagon here though.

[Vecna]

I think damo might be scum. When I was scum last game I legit fear killed him because he was on fire with his play. His reads this game are indicative of low effort and bs. His vote on yav is a pile on it vote. His play is scum play. ##vote damo

This post from ND strikes me as suspicious based on what I've uderlined. It is written in a way that seems more focused on justifying why ND would think damo is scum, than why damo is actually scum. I would expect Town ND to say something more like "When I played with damo last game, he was very active and his reads were right on...." Instead, this is written more like "There are justifiable reasons for ND in particular to hold damo to a high standard and think he is scum if he does not meet this standard."

This is not definitive, but sharing my reaction anyway. Interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

[Vecna]

Are you guys real? He's day and night from the last game. Explain the difference between his scum game there and why he's scum here.

It actually makes no sense. ND is exhibiting a thought process here (albeit flawed), there was no such thing done when he was scum.

I think ND and Vecna are town. I think Jamiet is opportunistic but he's also just bad. I think yavuz is likely town.

RHK is sus because of his push on yav which is just really shady.

Even though I agree with everything here......hmm

I guess the roles will be reversed this game and ill play the suspicious part

[Vecna]

I basically agreed that nothing about him looked suspicious until he made the post justifying his read in terms of his prior fearkill. Do you have any reaction to that post? Way off base?

I think it is wrong but it is really more reasoning than scum!ND is able to provide. That is my impression. I also don't really see value in the semantics issue you pointed out.

Dont underestimate ND's scumgame. Even though last game was a terrible example, he is one of the most convincing scum players on this website when he just tries to emulate normal town play.

Pretty sure this isnt it though, although im sure he's capable of reinventing new styles quite easily.

[Vecna]

Werid cause a kudos is like an attaboy how is that not answering his question? You are like at Jamie level nitpicking as well hmm

My guess is that you ND never has attended any class and tried to learn any foreign language, so I give that to you that you have not any fair chance to understand Yav's problems taking part in this game conducted in a for him foreign language. Myself I have attended classes for 4 different foreign languages, so I claim that I understand quite well the struggle Yav must go through to take part in this game.

AND I ADMIRE YAV 100% FOR THIS!!

(and he is learning a lot in the process as well)

Please stop repeating this. I feel like a dog learned sitting.

And this post is all the proof you need Yav is town.

If he was scum, he wouldnt try to hush his benefactors. Instead he is (rightfully) pissed that people do the "aaaaw this guy thats learning english is so adorable".

IT WAS NO LANGUAGE FUCKUP. it was just a phrasing thing and the way he presented the pov that could easily be misconstrued.

[Vecna]

I basically agreed that nothing about him looked suspicious until he made the post justifying his read in terms of his prior fearkill. Do you have any reaction to that post? Way off base?

I think it is wrong but it is really more reasoning than scum!ND is able to provide. That is my impression. I also don't really see value in the semantics issue you pointed out.

The issue I pointed out was only about semantics in the sense that it involves words.

My point about ND is about his focus, and what it might tell us about his intention.Here is his post again:

I think damo might be scum. When I was scum last game I legit fear killed him because he was on fire with his play. His reads this game are indicative of low effort and bs. His vote on yav is a pile on it vote. His play is scum play. ##vote damo

ND is telling us he thinks damo is scum, and to justify that he says that ND fearkilled damo last game because ND held damo's town play in such high regard. It seems to me that ND's focus here is on explaining just how high ND's standard is for damo's play. That focus suggests that ND is concerned about the perception about ND's personal justification more than he is concerned about convincing people that damo is scum.

That kind of focus is something I expect more from scum than town, especially at the outset when someone is first providing a read and has not yet come under any fire for it.

The dichotomy that you are talking about between an unintelligible Scum ND and a normal Town ND is so stark. Is it really that easy to read ND? So long as he is intelligible, and he is actually voicing coherent arguments, he is town? That seems too easy.

Oh you smooth bastard, you. Making me doubt it all with this slick type of talking and being all sensible n shit.

[Vecna]

I'm not lynching xorxes this phase. Whether he's mafia or not becomes painfully clear very quickly, no need to jump the gun on it because he's amazing as town

Thank you for pointing this out. I was going to do it myself, but it's always better when someone else does it. Vecna doesn't know how to read me when I'm town. Last game he was convinced I was scum too, he usually thinks I'm scum irrespective of whether I'm scum or town. rdrivera does too to some extent, but he has the excuse that I reciprocate.

Unless we have a sensible Doctor and/or town box-holder I'm going to die N1 or N2 anyway, so no point wasting a mislynch on me.

Oh please, your earlier posts just weren't on your level, so they were reason enough for me to poke at you. If I actually was scumreading you last game, you wouldnt have lived as long as you did. Personally I dont even remember diverting much attention to you at all that game, but maybe there was a read here and there in the early game while I had not put in any serious amount of time.

[Vecna]

No way. They're going to fearkill me. You're small potatoes, and only effective with an OP equalizer, in my experience.

I've been fearkilled early in all of my recent games as town. You haven't played for a while and people have forgotten they ever feared you.

People brag about the wrong things. The true art is in surviving and pushing through your reads to get that win for town. So like, can you fuckers scumread me a little more already?

[Vecna]

I think damo might be scum. When I was scum last game I legit fear killed him because he was on fire with his play. His reads this game are indicative of low effort and bs. His vote on yav is a pile on it vote. His play is scum play. ##vote damo

We're only halfway through day 1. Not a great deal to analyse so this reasoning is nonsense.

This game has a metric fuckton of good shit to analyze. Note to self to check if he actually explained his reads between here and catchup or if it was fluff.

[Vecna]

@Jamiet, if you have a problem with the GM, send them a PM please. It is not productive to my win condition for you to clutter up this thread with an argument with a GM.

This feels iffy again.

[Vecna]

Doesn't seem like Jamie to quit like that over something so small, he's always the one that wants to get the next game going

I like this post. Feels very much like a town post. There appears to be no scum motivation whatsoever in wondering if there was some ulterior motive here.

[Vecna]

Calling Vecna, ND , Bo & ghug

If any of you are town you are making a mistake voting for me.

If any of you are scum you know I am town.

##unvote

[Vecna]

Damo is incredibly defensive, I don't know why

Lets vote somewhere else

[Vecna]

Page 2 - xorxes is my spirit animal
Page 3 - thd feels scummy
Page 4 - defensive post from xorxes sticks out to me. ND seems town. Jamie could easily be faking this emotion.
Page 5 - Tom for sure scum for pretending to love ND more than he loves me. Bozo suggesting dumb things for town seems townie.
Page 6 - I like Balki here for trying to move away from the box discussion once it's run its course. I dislike that he didn't couple it with any concrete new thing to talk about.
Page 7 - Ok I like Balki. Worcej is sus as fuck for responding seriously to the request to policy lynch Jamie.
Page 8 - Everyone is scumreading xorxes for the spirit animal shit instead of his strangely defensive response to that criticism. Vecna is shit so I'm leaning town. Durga seems comfortable, so leaning town there too.
Pages 9-11 - Jamie is angry about process rather than things he thinks are scummy. This strikes me as scummy. We should lynch szpoti so that I don't have to figure out how to read analytical noobs. Xorxes is an alien from Planet Lojban. Ike made it seem like he didn't fuck up the game he GMed to divert Jamie back at worcej and co. This is very clever and Ike is not, so I think it was an accident.
Hmm somehow I ended up on page 11.
Page 12 - I love how incredibly stupid some of you people are.
Page 14 - ND said something semi-intelligent kill me now. Don't like damo's jump on yav. Seems opportunistic. I can excuse the two who did it first because they're terrible (not that damo isn't). God I actually love ND this page what is wrong with me? @Szpoti have you followed any past games or ever played elsewhere?
Page 15? Probably - Durga's logic on ND seems authentic, and I do agree he's town, but it should be noted that he was talking about the persona he was putting on to fuck with meta reads when he communicated in the QT, so it's not that clear-cut. Balki is definitely a townread.
Page 16 - Ok xorxes is still my spirit animal. So is yav. Xorxes can I have your carefully named babies?
The rest is bullshit mostly.

I townread Balki, ND, Durga. Kinda Vecna and bozo.

I'd like to lynch Jamie, but I guess I'll let them replace him since it's early enough for a new player to get an actual fresh start. ##vote damo. Worcej and thd are my other scumreads.

@ghug - I bolded the stuff I thought was terrible. Yes, there is a lot bolded. Your post is terrible mostly because half of it is spam in the form of jokes or irrelevant things, and the other half is rambling and hard to follow.

I liked what xorxes was doing.

The Tom thing was fully silly.

"I like Balki" was a townread. I had been torn the previous page.

Second spirit animal comment was about people scumreading xorxes for actions I liked (trolling ND and Jamie in a very relaxed way, like a townie having fun) instead of those I didn't (responding poorly to criticism about how much he was talking).

The szpoti concern is legitimate. Foxcastle types make great deep threats, because they're not idiots but can't be read on meta. The Ike thing is also legitimate. The xorxes thing and the pagination thing are irrelevant (though speaking Lojban is super cool).

People are indeed stupid. No regrets.

The ND thing is offering my opinion on his thoughts in a dramatic way.

I liked what xorxes was doing again.

Whenever I feel Ghug is town, I should probably be worried about my own read. But I feel Ghug is town. I also share the concern over the szpoti slot.

[Vecna]

@ghug - I bolded the stuff I thought was terrible. Yes, there is a lot bolded. Your post is terrible mostly because half of it is spam in the form of jokes or irrelevant things, and the other half is rambling and hard to follow.

I liked what xorxes was doing.

The Tom thing was fully silly.

"I like Balki" was a townread. I had been torn the previous page.

Second spirit animal comment was about people scumreading xorxes for actions I liked (trolling ND and Jamie in a very relaxed way, like a townie having fun) instead of those I didn't (responding poorly to criticism about how much he was talking).

The szpoti concern is legitimate. Foxcastle types make great deep threats, because they're not idiots but can't be read on meta. The Ike thing is also legitimate. The xorxes thing and the pagination thing are irrelevant (though speaking Lojban is super cool).

People are indeed stupid. No regrets.

The ND thing is offering my opinion on his thoughts in a dramatic way.

I liked what xorxes was doing again.

Thank you for explaining this stuff. Why can't you just put this kind of stuff in your original post? Town needs to communicate everything as clearly as possible while scum tries to obfuscate things. I realize you were probably just trying to have fun, but you can still have fun whilst being clear.

't was pretty clear to me. Maybe ive just learned to speak Ghuggian (ghuggles?) over the years.

[Vecna]

Aghhhh ghug is so townie he must be scum

Hah, mindmeld

[Vecna]

Now can you answer my question about damo? Was his jump on yav the only reason you voted him? Also, why him and not the others that jumped on yav?

People jump on stupid scumslips all the time. I dislike it, but if I scumread everything I disliked, I'd be Jamie (you'll note that I do still scumread the Jamie spot. This is a factor, but not the biggest one). Damo's vote was not only shitty logic, but also opportune, bringing the pressure on yav from some suspicion to a little wagon.

Id like your opinion on it actually being BALKI, while being super covert-ops'esque about it.

[Vecna]

Anyone worth my time want to have a conversation? I'm thinking about the box and how it might be useful to use a strategy which I think was suggested a few games ago where everyone says what they would do with it if they had it, that way we can go back later and have a verifiable trail of where it went without giving scum the answer immediately either. It could be problematic if multiple people die right after passing the box and we are waiting a day or a day and a half to claim...

Hmmm, that might be a good idea. I validate this as worth a discussion.

I understand this proposal as: everyone says who they would pass the box to if they hypothetically had the box. There is an information advantage here. Just the act of everyone saying to whom they would give the box might add useful information to the thread.

One problem I see is that if we do this every day, and we insist that all Townies be honest about it, all it takes is one Box item reveal (e.g., Oracle, or extra vote, or successful bullet proof vest, or box save, or something else) to reveal the entire trail of box-holders. I fear that bringing the information to light would be scum-sided on net.

Another problem is that there is little accountability if scum lies. I suppose that the Watcher provides some accountability, but there are enough ways to screw up Watcher reads (e.g., Driver, the box went to someone random for one of a variety of reasons, person who sent box can say they did not send the box but did something else, etc.) that I don't think we have a good way to enforce honesty on behalf of the mafia here. So we would mostly be leaving a breadcrumb trail regarding where the box is, if it's in town hands, without gaining information about where the box is if it is scum hands.

I think, on balance, this is not a good plan. But I am interested to hear other views.

The bigger problem is that the box doc saves upon transfer. Scum can deduce which kills are more likely to go through. Scum can even know which person will not have a box save possibility on them at all. Worse yet, they can even deduce where the box was/is going by targeting their NK properly by using this information.

Sure, it might be beneficial if the box already starts with scum, but im not sure itd be wise to tailor our strategy to a 1/4 or so probability.

Ill give this some more thought, since we do have the problem that the box is invariably going to end up with scum. We just dont know how long itll take.