M 90: Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral

[Balki Bartokomous]

@brainbomb, real talk -- I have been glossing over many of your posts in this game because I feel like your scumreads have this dependent nature and start snowballing into conspiracies about entire scumteams. You identify one person as scum (be it Flav or Vecna, for example) and then you draw conclusions about other players based on your pre-flip notion of your initial read. E.g., Person X is scum because they defended a player you pre-flipped scum, or they tried to push a wagon on a player you pre-flipped as town.

Now, mea culpa, me glossing over your posts is my problem. I need to avoid doing that. I need to do the work to dive into the minutiae, and I pledge to do a better job of that Day 2 if I am alive. But I also think your work will hit harder and convince more hearts and minds if you focus on a read one player at a time, and spend less time explaining what a given read means for the alignment of every other player in the game. Because if I don't follow you on the first read, all of the other dependent stuff can become noise.

[worcej]

I like how adamant sweet is to stick to the fake claiming schtick after we shamed him.

Gotta admire that commitment lol

[Chaqa]

NOTHING of your vote came from Chaqa? I find that hard to believe it basically came RIGHT after Chaqa made the case on him

Flavius attempting to give chaqa credit for my push on eden, builds up chaqa, shades me and makes it seem like chaqas homework on eden is valid - without ever saying if he himself agrees that eden is scum

This is just straight up bad memory or bad research or scummy misinterpretation.

I noted Eden as a potential scum partner with food on page 39:
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g=90&part=p38-40#msg_id=w:416112

You didn't mention it until page 42, with no reason given:
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g=90&part=p41-43#msg_id=w:416177

and I remember Flavius even asking you about this:
http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g=90&part=p55-57#msg_id=w:416505

[Balki Bartokomous]

You can't triple stamp a double stamp, and you can't hardclaim more than once. You really don't understand what a hard claim is if you keep changing it.

We need a new category -- Super Double Dog Hardest Joey Chestnut Claim -- for when Sweet really means it. But it only counts if he puts it in rainbow.

[Chaqa]

02. FlaviusAetius null
03. Jamiet99uk null
04. sweetandcool town
05. DiplomacyAndwarfare null
06. lfischl town
07. President Eden null
08. KingofthePirates town
09. Balki null
10. DemonRHK town
11. Hamilton Brian town
12. worcej null
13. bozotheclown null
14. damo666 town
15. Foodcoats town
16. Rdrivera2005 null
17. bunnygo town
18. Vecna town
19. chaqa null

Im towning a scum probably and then the other three maf are in my nulls just dunno which

Green means I agree with you.

Yellow means I'm not so sure. Specifically:
1. What has Vecna done to be townread?
2. Food is talking a lot but I haven't really seen him offer anything unique - he's just facilitating discussion. Is this his usual MO? (Researcher brainbomb on the case?)
3. BunnyGo... he is an enigma to me atm so I will just leave it at that.

Town:
brainbomb
BunnyGo
damo666
FlaviusAetius
Hamilton Brian
Jamiet99uk

Null
Balki Bartokomous
bozotheclown
DemonRHK
DiplomacyandWarfare
kingofthepirates
lfischl
rdrivera2005
sweetandcool
Vecna
worcej

Scumpool
foodcoats
President Eden

There are a number of inconsistencies here, considering these post were only 2.5 hours apart, specifically the changes for BunnyGo, sweetandcool, lfischl, and DemonRHK.

The great thing is I posted two very long posts where you could go see why they changed in real time.

[worcej]

This long night has been a real drag but at least Vecna did some next-level posting before he gets N1’ed

[Chaqa]

Bozo, youre doing that thing again where you find stuff to fit your narrative of scummy intent.

Ive seen you do this as both town and scum, but much more often as scum.

You dont even consider whether the behaviour can or is also likely to come from town, youre just trying to look for things that can be explained as scummy.

Also, as scum you pretty much always tunnel me.

If youre town; get the fuck out of your silly tunnel, woof-woof up the wrong tree.
If youre scum; boy get some new material

I agree heartily with Vecna here.

[Chaqa]

Foodcoats makes good sharp observations as town that make sense and that I can identify an investigative and inquiring mindset.

He has done nothing like that all game. He's been fluff-posting and being nice to people, and even his game-related posts are not strong at all so far.

As chaqa said, as soon as it became potentially dangerous to scumread Sweet (if youre a scum with allignment information) he suddenly backed off. Nothing changed there with that additional claim from a town pov.

But most importantly; its not about what he's said. Its about what he hasnt said. Anything that rings like towny observation. Foods often quite quick and clear in that regard.

The more I think about it, the more this doesnt make sense.

Chaqa had the same scumreads.

Chaqa loved the reasoning I provided.

Chaqa was being a wagon-bro.

Yet when prompted he kept stating he did not townread me (even before the food flip).

That is so weird.

Its so natural to townread the people that observe the gamestate in a similar way as you do.

I don't necessarily townread people for having the same views as me, though it can be a factor. In your case you have buddied me as mafia before when you've had the same reads and fooled me.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Bozo, youre doing that thing again where you find stuff to fit your narrative of scummy intent.

Ive seen you do this as both town and scum, but much more often as scum.

You dont even consider whether the behaviour can or is also likely to come from town, youre just trying to look for things that can be explained as scummy.

Also, as scum you pretty much always tunnel me.

If youre town; get the fuck out of your silly tunnel, woof-woof up the wrong tree.
If youre scum; boy get some new material

I agree heartily with Vecna here.

I like that Vecna is kinda being a dick.

[Chaqa]

Vecna,

The fact you are very good at reading Hamilton, and foodcoats was not crafted initially to work against you. In fact I used your reads to inform my own. I stated at the time I didnt like your reads. But I caved and began taking food off my town list as well. What seems odd to me is that your expertise was wrong on all counts. Not just one, not just two, but four of your scumreads are wrong.

And until or unless you can correct me and say BB meant Balki, im assuming I became a scumread of yours because I made your hard townread on flavius harder to defend and harder to dig for reasons why it was legit.

-

You were indeed dead to rights last time. And the posts you have are showing some semblence of wanting to fight back this time: hence your scumbuddy chaqa doesnt wanna burn the only nk you have on me. Meaning he told you tough shit and work your way out of it.

I actually thought you were doing your semi-usual scumthing of hard-defending your teammates.

The timing on your Flav thingy just felt off, because I really wanted to get foodcoats and I didnt want any other wagon to overtake it, and no distractions from killing foodcoats.

This is also why I was annoyed at people starting the Worcej wagon and that other wagon that briefly popped up.

And say what you will, but the foodcoats-crafted post did feel iffy (to me, at the time). Like, why would you need a meta-investigation post, if you already seem to apply the metric to me that youre doing right now: that my accuracy is amazing.

Anyways, im not really interested in turning this into a big thing. The actual scum are no doubt licking their porkchops in delight.

I find this entire brain-Vecna thing a little too raw and potentially leading to an argument to be S-S, at least.

[Chaqa]

Since you pushed a joke counter wagon to foodcoats- did you ever consider scumreading yourself for encouraging this?

I encoured foodcoats to start a CW on chaqa because I realized it would make him look desperate and result in it being more likely that he would be the D1 vote.

Sorry food. But it still was funny to me.

One thing that struck me about Food's counterwagon on me is that he tried to push it with the reason "Chaqa has never tried this hard on D1". I thought it was an odd choice at the time and assumed it was scum-motivated, but I'm wondering now if Food has not played with me in a game where I had a heavier D1 presence.

[sweetandcool]

Finally looked at it. I posit Vecna OR brainbomb is Mafia. I suppose both isn't impossible either.

Points against brainbomb: He made that meta analysis of Vecna absolutely out of the blue. If they are teammates, this makes sense as some sort of next level bussing strategy that gets brainbomb deep if Vecna flips.

Points against Vecna: I think brainbomb's meta analysis was compelling. At the time, he was clearly scum reading Food. At the end of day he threw out Ham and Food as scumreads, which he was wrong about and according to brainbomb's meta analysis he should have likely been correct about.

Did I miss in brainbomb's meta analysis that Vecna was historically good at reading brainbomb and Dip correctly?

[Chaqa]

This is why chaqa is obv scum:

I quite strongly disagree with you on this one. I think Flavius has been very productive and driving conversation.

Chaqa would not think flavius is productive and certainly as of NOW should acknowledge that flavius was driving the game off a cliff. This needs to be addressed by chaqa.

Thank you for telling me what I would or would not think.

This is a really strange thing to base a read off of when I do in fact believe Flavius was a driving force of D1. Even if the outcome was poor, that isn't his fault.

[Chaqa]

This is why chaqa is obv scum:

I quite strongly disagree with you on this one. I think Flavius has been very productive and driving conversation.

Chaqa would not think flavius is productive and certainly as of NOW should acknowledge that flavius was driving the game off a cliff. This needs to be addressed by chaqa.

Also, I fail to see how he drove discussion/the game off a cliff any more than if it was you or Eden or ghug filling up the thread. This seems to be some sort of bias against Flav.

[brainbomb]

If you are going to do all this research on >Vecna< how can you NOT provide scum Vecna for comparisons, you are just >cherrypicking< for god knows why!

This is strange since my research did do this

[FlaviusAetius]

Reading flavius posts, every other talking point is to return all interest on foodcoats.

And what is Vecna doing THIS game?

Flavius defends vecna to try to shut down the discussion on him.

Immediate pivot:

page 41 / orig I just looked it up he doesnt like foodcoat, I dont like foodcoat either but I want to hear his reasons he cant just say foodcoats is sus and drop off the earth

This post is poorly crafted and seems to reach a bit to challenge vecna over foodcoats. Perhaps even preassigning blame so he does try to establish a vague reason to want more from vecna here but its the last we ever hear about it.

Vecna arrived stating flav is just like last game
I produce a body of evidence proving flav was scumsiding last game on purpose

And this is the reactions by vecna

when did he say that?

similar play to this game continued long after the recruitment had already taken place though

BB, D&W, Food, HB, Bozo

My current guess is that group contains all 4 scum

Now im suddenly scumlisted by vecna along with three other now dead town

Flavius sees what vecna said about post recruitment m89 playstyle change:

BRUH first of all last game I was trying to get recruited CORRECT and do you know HOW to get recruited? By being the >most< towny that ever towned. I didnt change how I was even AFTER recruitment phased ended and if you were in the discord you would have seen my demeanor didnt CHANGE. Ive explained htis a thousand million times I add CAPITALS to things to bring EMPHASIS to what Im syaing
​
[/quote
Flavius uses vecnas argument and presents it as his own self defense but tries to bury the defense by changing topics to be about his use of all caps

WRONG
Do you think maybe just >maybe< I kept referencing foodcoats was because I thought he was mafia so I kept pushing him >thats< why I did that; its what >you< are doing right now bro, every other comment you are saying is "flavius this flavius that" its how you PLAY the game!
WRONG
I was not trying to >shutdown< the discussion on Vecna instead I was trying to >foster it< you said you thought Vecna was scum, I and everyone else has a right to know >why< how else are we supposed to critique it support it ETC, again thats how you PLAY the game!
WRONG
You can >see< in the post you just >posted< that I was actually sus of Vecna! He cant just call someone sus(as you often do) without >any< backing! It makes NO sense!
WRONG
You take NO account of my discord behavior >which< Vecna was not there for either I dont think but someone here HAD to be ugh >DiplomacyAndWare< would have been able to verify

[FlaviusAetius]

the "WRONG's" are me idk why it didnt come out correctly

[Chaqa]

This is why chaqa is obv scum:

I quite strongly disagree with you on this one. I think Flavius has been very productive and driving conversation.

Chaqa would not think flavius is productive and certainly as of NOW should acknowledge that flavius was driving the game off a cliff. This needs to be addressed by chaqa.

I don't think this is a convincing argument in itself. People view things differently.

Like I view my shenanigans D1 as helpful and generating interesting content. Others view it as clogging the thread and a waste of Town energy.

So would that make me scum or the people that hated my play scum? If Chaqa likes Flav's play does that really make him scum? Or just someone with a viewpoint that happens to be opposite of yours?

Sweet might be bad at fake claims, but he's right here.

[Chaqa]

Bozo keeps saying there are inconsistencies because he is just doing an A/B comparison of two posts of reads without reading the explanations/progression I gave in my other posts.

Scummy.

[FlaviusAetius]

NOTHING of your vote came from Chaqa? I find that hard to believe it basically came RIGHT after Chaqa made the case on him

Flavius attempting to give chaqa credit for my push on eden, builds up chaqa, shades me and makes it seem like chaqas homework on eden is valid - without ever saying if he himself agrees that eden is scum

I dont even REMEMBER Chaqa's case on Eden all I remember is that >you< said Eden was scum and it was ODD you didnt even >comment< on anything Chaqa said