M 90: Shootout at the Pretty Good Corral

[Jamiet99uk]

None of the players I look up to as being coherent or a voice of reason are doing anything to assauge my devolving into theorycraft are talking enough.

Im left to think maybe im actually somehow leading this circus. Bozo looks very town and damo.

Damo is probably my strongest town. I also think lfischl is very town this game

What has Lfischl done to earn your townread?

[sweetandcool]

I dont think flavius has to be scum for chaqa-vecna-jamie to be a team.

I scumread sweet now also for just not engaging with me

How would you like me to engage? I've read, I've felt generally favourable towards your work, I could see you being right about a player or two, but until I've had a chance to really dig in I can only superficially agree or disagree.

I do worry you are tunneled on Flav, and based on their behavior I would really like you to be correct.

I do get the impression you are Town this game, which makes me quite happy.

[Jamiet99uk]

Town flavius looks acts and feels at all times like a bombastic extra scumteam member who provides nothing to town other than trivial distraction gotcha questions. At best he would survive to end of game and miskill someone for putting a comma in a sentence instead of a period

How is he different from that, in the current game?

[Jamiet99uk]

Im beginning to think NO ONE on the sweet wagon was mafia

I feel like the Sweet wagon was a town-motivated wagon and would have been the right choice.

You did the same >exact< things food did you dont GET to say that and have >yet'< to explain anything!

Foodcoats was town. If my motivations and reactions to Sweet are similar to those you saw from Foodcoats, that should earn me townpoints.

[Jamiet99uk]

I think you are probably delighted with how D1 turned out.

Your multiple fakeclaims absorbed a lot of the day, turned Damo into your loyal cheerleader for some reason, and contributed to three town deaths and a grand total of 0 Mafia being caught.

Assuming you are scum, great performance, bravo.

I did really good work. We just gotta solve the game now. It's not my fault y'all voted Food who was a pretty poor wagon.

YES, it >is< your fault the only people against the food wagon >just< didnt want a runaway wagon >no one< not even food himself presented COUNTER ARGUMENTS, even >I< was hesitant cause food wasnt even >on< for 20 hours despite doing a bunch of scummy stuff >then< he returned and did >nothing< to defend himself besides treating it like one >big joke< it was ridiculous and you DID NOTHING to prevent >any of that<

Too <muCH> SYNTAX; [bro].

[sweetandcool]

Im angry, still itchy. My ankles are swollen from my issue. I cant walk very well. Busy as shit at work. I didnt get to be desp like id hoped. Thrn we lost three town day 1. I got half the game fighting me on someone im 1000% sure is scum; so its not an enjoyable game.

Sorry you are not well.

Yeah that can be frustrating, so take a step back, disengage, and let Town have a chance to absorb your arguments against Vecna.

I would say that if the timing is right, and you posted your meta comments about Vecna before it was shown how wrong Vecna's reads were, then I would actually consider that a fairly strong data point against Vecna.

So I will have to check that.

So don't forget your reads, but try for a moment doing the classic brainbomb trick of examining other players and seeing if they make sense as scum as well, players you are blocking out due to your scumread on Vecna. Maybe you will find compelling evidence for another team (that may or may not include Vecna).

[Jamiet99uk]

TSA: except if you are Sweet. Sweet should hard claim Lawman right now.

You >cant< know if you are lawman until your gun loads at the start of the day, sweet >cant< know if he is lawman yet so therefore he >cant< claim right now arent you mr. I know the setups, >how< did you miss this?

Your sarcasm detector is not functioning.

[Jamiet99uk]

I did really good work. We just gotta solve the game now. It's not my fault y'all voted Food who was a pretty poor wagon.

YES, it >is< your fault the only people against the food wagon >just< didnt want a runaway wagon >no one< not even food himself presented COUNTER ARGUMENTS, even >I< was hesitant cause food wasnt even >on< for 20 hours despite doing a bunch of scummy stuff >then< he returned and did >nothing< to defend himself besides treating it like one >big joke< it was ridiculous and you DID NOTHING to prevent >any of that<

Can anyone summarize what Flav is saying? I can't read it between all the math symbols sprinkled in there.

He is saying:

"Yes, Sweetandcool, it is your fault the only people against the Food wagon did not want a runaway wagon. Nobody, not even Food himself, presented counter arguments. Even I (Flavius) was hesitant, because Food wasn't even online for 20 hours, despite doing a bunch of scummy stuff. Then, he returned, and did nothing to defend himself besides treating the situation like one big joke. It was ridiculous, and you, Sweet, did nothing to prevent any of that."

Here is the same paragraph translated into Esperanto, in case you speak it:

Jes, Sweetandcool, estas via kulpo ke la nuraj homoj kontraŭ la Manĝa Vagono ne volis fuĝi. Neniu, eĉ ne Manĝo mem, prezentis kontraŭajn argumentojn. Eĉ mi (Flavius) estis hezitema, ĉar Manĝo ne estis eĉ enreta dum 20 horoj, malgraŭ farante multajn malpurajn aferojn. Poste, li revenis, kaj ne faris ion por defendi sin krom trakti la situacion kiel grandan ŝercon. Estis ridinda, kaj vi, Sweet, ne faris ion por malhelpi ion el tio.

[sweetandcool]

YES, it >is< your fault the only people against the food wagon >just< didnt want a runaway wagon >no one< not even food himself presented COUNTER ARGUMENTS, even >I< was hesitant cause food wasnt even >on< for 20 hours despite doing a bunch of scummy stuff >then< he returned and did >nothing< to defend himself besides treating it like one >big joke< it was ridiculous and you DID NOTHING to prevent >any of that<

Can anyone summarize what Flav is saying? I can't read it between all the math symbols sprinkled in there.

He is saying:

"Yes, Sweetandcool, it is your fault the only people against the Food wagon did not want a runaway wagon. Nobody, not even Food himself, presented counter arguments. Even I (Flavius) was hesitant, because Food wasn't even online for 20 hours, despite doing a bunch of scummy stuff. Then, he returned, and did nothing to defend himself besides treating the situation like one big joke. It was ridiculous, and you, Sweet, did nothing to prevent any of that."

Here is the same paragraph translated into Esperanto, in case you speak it:

Jes, Sweetandcool, estas via kulpo ke la nuraj homoj kontraŭ la Manĝa Vagono ne volis fuĝi. Neniu, eĉ ne Manĝo mem, prezentis kontraŭajn argumentojn. Eĉ mi (Flavius) estis hezitema, ĉar Manĝo ne estis eĉ enreta dum 20 horoj, malgraŭ farante multajn malpurajn aferojn. Poste, li revenis, kaj ne faris ion por defendi sin krom trakti la situacion kiel grandan ŝercon. Estis ridinda, kaj vi, Sweet, ne faris ion por malhelpi ion el tio.

Thank you for your admirable work, Jamiet.

What do you think about his statement? Do you think because I was AFK I should shoulder the blame of Food flipping? Or should Flav, who voted for Food?

[DemonRHK]

Hiya folks. been working and drinking. Sometimes at the same time.

Anyway, I am getting a odd ping from bunny at the EoD. I'm not a fan of that super late move to food, I doubt it alone is scum indicative but it was naked as hell.

Balki's point on our lawmen, I think he's overestimating it. I think Day 3 will likely be the day we need to blanket fire. Scum is gonna shoot ats they activate, just to try to thin us out, elim potential lawmen. Day two we have to be on point.

Hypo on flav

[FlaviusAetius]

This is such a scum Bunny post. You gotta restrain yourself when you think you've found an easy target.

You make it so fickint hard to be your teammate. You go OUT OF YOUR WAY to antagonize EVERY TOWN player. As if you can only think of yourself. I’m shooting you if I get a gun.

Fine, I'll explain.

Food was right, I planned to fake claim no matter what this game. But I also didn't want to "harm Town", so I was very responsible by opening with a very obvious fake claim. Its only utility was that Mafia wouldn't believe me, which is beneficial in the event I rolled Sheriff. And since nobody would CC me or DK me, we would have a Sheriff till the end of the game. Or Mafia would believe me enough to RB me, which is also beneficial in the (probability wise) more likely event I rolled VT.

What I didn't anticipate, was the incredibly unhinged response I received. Three players (Bozo, Food, Eden) immediately assumed it was a joke (very good). A few players believed me (very strange and unexpected, I thought maybe one player would at most), and the rest denounced me as a filthy liar, playing anti-town and narcissistic and not working with my team, which is an extreme and unhinged response.

Given that several of these reactions have to be fake, I think overall it produced content that is helpful to Town, so I don't really regret it at all.

But, since I received such a hysterical response, I felt backed into a corner. How could Town threaten to DK an unCC PR claim? Or feel like the claim was worth even treating as possible?

So I decided to make a believable fake claim, Desperado. In hindsight, that was a poor move because Town's inability to think rationally meant the Desperado was likely to shoot me. Luckily, cool-hand Ham rolled Desperado and behaved reasonably.

My plan at that point was to purposefully be AFK at EoD, which would explain why I didn't shoot. I didn't really think Desperado would go along with my charade, but I was happy to provide that opportunity if they wanted to take it. In the end, and happily, I organically was AFK, relieving me of the burden of finding a way to explain it without lying.

I had further moves planned, but Ham shooting and dieing obviously makes those plans moot.

Ultimately, this has exposed precisely the Town behavior I decry. Heuristics are good, but when players rely on them as an excuse to turn off their brain and make bad unthinking decisions then heuristics become bad. It is true, Fake claiming is more often bad, and should be treated with care. But a player fake claiming, whether well or poorly, is not automatically scum. This is similar to the train of thought some players get tempted into where they see play they don't like and consequently scumread others. The reality is Town makes bad moves too, or just moves you don't agree with at the very least.

I think Town's treatment of me has been shameful, and I'm sorry that Food hates playing with me and that you Bunny and others feel like I'm not a Town player.

I thought my play helped Town solve and provided cover for our real PRs and provides amazing cover for me if I am a PR. Of course, I'm relying on Town playing as a Team, which I'm guessing D2 will demonstrate will not be the case.

In conclusion, I am Sheriff, hard claim.

First off I >agree< with you the people who went after you D1 for fakeclaiming/realclaiming were utterly just silly people. THEY were people I actually suspected for being mafia as a result, the person who was >most< scummy was food out of them all
>He< was the one who told us all about your plan and then decided to >vote< you for doing it anyways it made >no sense<

The REASON people called you >anti-town< was because your fake claiming which is got more and more ridiculous didnt stop and it was >all< you could talk about. >Instead< of it being a great cover for others it turned into the content of the entire day you made the day >about you< and you did >nothing< to prevent that from happening

The >one< thing that you could have done was turn the town >away< from food as you so claimed you wanted to do but >instead?< Your plan was to go >purposefully< AFK??? I just man this is RIDICULOUS

Your >initial< plan has SOME merit to it, but >every< subsequent decision you made flew in the FACE of it.

[FlaviusAetius]

Also, I just realized Bunny is roleplaying as Flavius. Did Flavius' penchant for bolding words for emphasis rub off on Bunny in scumchat?

Is this a crazy subtle scumslip? I'll have to look back and see how they look D1.

Or >maybe< just >maybe< bunny realized how important it is to emphasize words in a text chat game like this to get people to >pay< attention the >most important< part of what you are trying to say

[FlaviusAetius]

Working on my case on Jamie-Vecna-Chaqa-Flavius scumteam with bunny also as a possibility if im wrong about one of these.

i was halfway written and lost the post on mobile but the idea centers around Jamie lightly resisting wanting to push chaqa,

It depends on the overall level of activity in any given game.

Lurking is not just low posting, it's low posting whilst also seeming to have an eye on the game.

As to question 2:
Worcej, Lfischl, maybe Eden.

He does encourage me to vote chaqa but does not seem willing to join and uses an out of game reason to give day 1 pass to chaqa.

—-later—/

flavius then misrepping my statements, chaqa showing up and claiming flavius is leading the conversations, and vecna trying to defend flavius and scumreading all the people who he normally accurately reads day 1 but gets them all wrong in a rare fail.

The first quote is:

↑brainbomb: "Okay well there were no survivors. Just an inflatable man.

So this seems to be tilting sideways quite fast. Never was I..."
I dont understand how we can start a conversation on lurkers without even KNOWING whose a lurker yet or not? So far we just have chaqa confirmed lurker because chaqa isnt going to be on much D1 as explained, who else? WHO KNOWS...thats why we dont go after lurkers D1 its just sillly

-flavius prefedending chaqa that his reasons for not being around are true but insta trying to pivot to any other lurker to talk about.

Chaqa on my push on flavius

Weirdly bad take from brain

I quite strongly disagree with you on this one. I think Flavius has been very productive and driving conversation.

If anyone here is all carbs, it's you.

Chaqa replies to demonrhk saying Flavius is leading the conversations and steering the game. Which mostly consists of flav repeating foodcoats is scum, sweet is lying, and brainbomb is inconsistent.

So this looks scummy by chaqa.

SEE @brain chaqa is NO longer a lurker because chaqa is going to start talking! YOU CANT KNOW whose a lurker and whose NOT a lurker until D2

Flavius attempting to remove reasons to look at chaqa

You know this tells us nothing right? There is no SCUM Vecna here to compare too

Flavius attempting to hard push an agenda that any research on vecna habits is void because vecna isnt scum here. Stated seemingly as a fact rather than any reasoning given for why.

Part 2 coming soon

WRONG
I was >not< trying to pivot to other lurkers I was explaining that we should go after >no< lurkers
WRONG
I was >not< misrepping your statements, your statements >could< have been interpretted in many different ways I was >sure< you were advocating for people to use a smaller towncore >I AGREE< thats a smart idea >except< you were doing the exact opposite!
I did >not< realize you were actually saying both approaches work
WRONG
Chaqa turned out to >not< be a lurker, as I said could happen to a lurker D1!
WRONG
If you are going to do all this research on >Vecna< how can you NOT provide scum Vecna for comparisons, you are just >cherrypicking< for god knows why!

[Balki Bartokomous]

Not claiming seems clear enough. I don’t understand holding the shot.

Miskilling = game over basically so if you have a shot >use it< >ONLY< if you are >sure< you are going to kill a mafia shooting for info is >not< an option

I agree, it will be 11-4 D2, so assuming the mafia get their shots in, it will effectively be 7-4. A miss on the DK makes it effectively 5-4 D3. A missed Vig shot D2 means we go into D3 with our only chance being a Vig taking out a mafia who has not received their gun yet.

Jeez, this set-up is ridiculously scum-sided. Seems like we're in a big hole for just having a rough Day 1.

[sweetandcool]

Also, I just realized Bunny is roleplaying as Flavius. Did Flavius' penchant for bolding words for emphasis rub off on Bunny in scumchat?

Is this a crazy subtle scumslip? I'll have to look back and see how they look D1.

Or >maybe< just >maybe< bunny realized how important it is to emphasize words in a text chat game like this to get people to >pay< attention the >most important< part of what you are trying to say

Replying to this to avoid the massive wall if I quoted your previous post:

Yes, I was planning to be AFK in order to convincingly be Desperado. It could have really paid off D2 potentially.

In the end I happened to be AFK anyways, for real reasons, so this line of talk is pretty moot.

Even when I'm in good standing my opinion does little to sway wagons, so I severely doubt me shouting at people to get off Food would have had little affect.

[Balki Bartokomous]

but do I have to be scum for any of your theories to make sense?

Because if it relies on that, your theory is piss and shit.

No
Not at all actually anyone can have an off game

I'm not sure that answers Vecna's question.

[Chaqa]

Time to read N1

[sweetandcool]

Just reviewing the entire day, and I've caught a player blatantly crumbing Sheriff twice.

Care to explain yourself Bunny?

[Chaqa]

Well sweet clearly full of it but doesn't make him scum do it?

My goodness, you are STILL keen to defend this multiple liar??

Damo is correctly defending our last Town PR.

Are there not several Lawmen?

[Chaqa]

This is such a scum Bunny post. You gotta restrain yourself when you think you've found an easy target.

You make it so fickint hard to be your teammate. You go OUT OF YOUR WAY to antagonize EVERY TOWN player. As if you can only think of yourself. I’m shooting you if I get a gun.

Fine, I'll explain.

Food was right, I planned to fake claim no matter what this game. But I also didn't want to "harm Town", so I was very responsible by opening with a very obvious fake claim. Its only utility was that Mafia wouldn't believe me, which is beneficial in the event I rolled Sheriff. And since nobody would CC me or DK me, we would have a Sheriff till the end of the game. Or Mafia would believe me enough to RB me, which is also beneficial in the (probability wise) more likely event I rolled VT.

What I didn't anticipate, was the incredibly unhinged response I received. Three players (Bozo, Food, Eden) immediately assumed it was a joke (very good). A few players believed me (very strange and unexpected, I thought maybe one player would at most), and the rest denounced me as a filthy liar, playing anti-town and narcissistic and not working with my team, which is an extreme and unhinged response.

Given that several of these reactions have to be fake, I think overall it produced content that is helpful to Town, so I don't really regret it at all.

But, since I received such a hysterical response, I felt backed into a corner. How could Town threaten to DK an unCC PR claim? Or feel like the claim was worth even treating as possible?

So I decided to make a believable fake claim, Desperado. In hindsight, that was a poor move because Town's inability to think rationally meant the Desperado was likely to shoot me. Luckily, cool-hand Ham rolled Desperado and behaved reasonably.

My plan at that point was to purposefully be AFK at EoD, which would explain why I didn't shoot. I didn't really think Desperado would go along with my charade, but I was happy to provide that opportunity if they wanted to take it. In the end, and happily, I organically was AFK, relieving me of the burden of finding a way to explain it without lying.

I had further moves planned, but Ham shooting and dieing obviously makes those plans moot.

Ultimately, this has exposed precisely the Town behavior I decry. Heuristics are good, but when players rely on them as an excuse to turn off their brain and make bad unthinking decisions then heuristics become bad. It is true, Fake claiming is more often bad, and should be treated with care. But a player fake claiming, whether well or poorly, is not automatically scum. This is similar to the train of thought some players get tempted into where they see play they don't like and consequently scumread others. The reality is Town makes bad moves too, or just moves you don't agree with at the very least.

I think Town's treatment of me has been shameful, and I'm sorry that Food hates playing with me and that you Bunny and others feel like I'm not a Town player.

I thought my play helped Town solve and provided cover for our real PRs and provides amazing cover for me if I am a PR. Of course, I'm relying on Town playing as a Team, which I'm guessing D2 will demonstrate will not be the case.

In conclusion, I am Sheriff, hard claim.

You can't triple stamp a double stamp, and you can't hardclaim more than once. You really don't understand what a hard claim is if you keep changing it.