Mafia XL - A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

[bozotheclown]

I forgot about that, I think that is a good argument against the box holder claiming. How about claiming the next day?

Possibly at the very end of N2. Otherwise Mafia will know who can't be protected by the box that night.

Looking at the setup, the order of operations says that box delivery occurs before the NK, so it seems like it may be the receiver who is protected by the box.

Sorry, I just realized that is what you said, I misinterpreted it the first time.

[Foxcastle]

#Ask GM - The holder of the box or the next holder is protected from the night kill?

##GM NOTE: During the Night Phase, the recipient of the Box is protected from the Mafia Night Kill. The player delivering the Box is not protected.

[RagingIke297]

FYI - Box Person, don't claim!!!

Claiming will result in your death. I call scum on bozo and Ike - because Mafia will know who to target (the guy who claims the box) right away to get rid of a town friendly item.

This is assuming that the person holding the box isn't scum and scum actually want to target whoever is holding the box. However it's something we need to look into more, who benefits more from knowing? Scum could try to target box holders, but then box holders get to direct kills.... hmmm

"Direct kills".... How?

Well, if a box holder claims and says who they are passing the box to, if scum act like worcej says they will, they would want to continue to kill whoever the box got passed to, thus the person holding the box would be able to "direct" the next kill based on who they pass the box to.

[bozotheclown]

FYI - Box Person, don't claim!!!

If the recipient of the Box has been targeted for the Mafia Night Kill, the Box will block the Night Kill. The target of the Night Kill will not be informed that they were saved.

Claiming will result in your death. I call scum on bozo and Ike - because Mafia will know who to target (the guy who claims the box) right away to get rid of a town friendly item.

I agree the box holder should not claim unless there is a consensus that claiming is a good idea. I considered what you are saying, but I thought the doc could protect the box holder, then xorxes pointed out that the current box holder can't be NKed, so that mafia would have to NK at least one day behind. However, this is part of the trade off, since some items are good to hold onto more than a day.

Sorry, I was thinking the current box holder was protected. This is a good argument against box claiming.

[worcej]

This is assuming that the person holding the box isn't scum and scum actually want to target whoever is holding the box. However it's something we need to look into more, who benefits more from knowing? Scum could try to target box holders, but then box holders get to direct kills.... hmmm

"Direct kills".... How?

Well, if a box holder claims and says who they are passing the box to, if scum act like worcej says they will, they would want to continue to kill whoever the box got passed to, thus the person holding the box would be able to "direct" the next kill based on who they pass the box to.

I don't see how your idea would benefit the town at all - assuming the box is in the mafia hands, which they wouldn't know yet because no QT discussion, by claiming it they would benefit more from the claim.

If the item is in a townies hand, then they would be getting a free elimination of the item unless doctor saves, which forces the doctor's save immediately instead of possibly protecting a PR - unless the box holder is also a PR... but that would still make the holder an obvious target down the road.

[thdfrance]

Correct me if I'm wrong but whoever gets the box doesn't have to use the item they get right away? So if scum know who has had the box then they would be able to target people with those items that can be important to the town. I can possibly see how claiming that you've had the box in the past and then identifying who you gave it to could be useful in us rooting out scum in the mid to end game. But for now I think it's best that we do what we can to keep the box in townie hands and get the items for ourselves. That means keeping whoever has or has had the box a secret.

[brainbomb]

My bride...
My bride!
My bride!
I've come to claim my bride,
Come tenderly to crush her against my side.
Let haste be made!
I cannot be delayed:
There are lands to conquer, cities to loot and peoples to degrade.
[SOLDIERS]
Look at those arms!
Look at that chest!
Look at them!
[MILES]
Not to mention the rest.
Even I am impressed!
My bride!
My bride!
Come, bring to me my bride.!

VOTE COUNT 1.0

ND (3) RagingIke297 Jamiet99uk DrCJG
Jamiet99uk (2) ND Balki Bartokomous
rdrivera2005 (1) peterlund
bo_sox48 (1) Durga
thdfrance (1) xorxes
peterlund (1) Tom Bombadil
xorxes (1) thdfrance

Non-votes:
bozotheclown, bo_sox48, damo666, DemonRHK, ghug, rdrivera2005
Squigs44, Szpoti, Vecna, worcej, yavuzovic

Currently ND is scheduled to be my BRIDE
MY BRIDE
Hes scheduled to be my bride

[RagingIke297]

"Direct kills".... How?

Well, if a box holder claims and says who they are passing the box to, if scum act like worcej says they will, they would want to continue to kill whoever the box got passed to, thus the person holding the box would be able to "direct" the next kill based on who they pass the box to.

I don't see how your idea would benefit the town at all - assuming the box is in the mafia hands, which they wouldn't know yet because no QT discussion, by claiming it they would benefit more from the claim.

If the item is in a townies hand, then they would be getting a free elimination of the item unless doctor saves, which forces the doctor's save immediately instead of possibly protecting a PR - unless the box holder is also a PR... but that would still make the holder an obvious target down the road.

Just hold off on claiming the box for a while, and wait to say who you passed the box to until they have passed the box. If scum got the box to start, they would love to not say who they are passing it to and just pass it between themselves until the last item. IMO we need to have claims at some point to have a verifiable trail for going into late game

[worcej]

Just hold off on claiming the box for a while, and wait to say who you passed the box to until they have passed the box. If scum got the box to start, they would love to not say who they are passing it to and just pass it between themselves until the last item. IMO we need to have claims at some point to have a verifiable trail for going into late game

This logic you explained is why I believe that the box HAD to start in a town players hands because it would make scum so OP and almost impossible to stop.

[RagingIke297]

Just hold off on claiming the box for a while, and wait to say who you passed the box to until they have passed the box. If scum got the box to start, they would love to not say who they are passing it to and just pass it between themselves until the last item. IMO we need to have claims at some point to have a verifiable trail for going into late game

This logic you explained is why I believe that the box HAD to start in a town players hands because it would make scum so OP and almost impossible to stop.

I agree that it would be very difficult to overcome, but this is also why we need to claim at some point, in case the box does start with scum.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Let's stop talking about the box. Don't claim anything about the box today. That's final.

Let's figure out who is scum.

Go -- figure it out.

[thdfrance]

Let's stop talking about the box. Don't claim anything about the box today. That's final.

Let's figure out who is scum.

Go -- figure it out.

I a free with you 100%....but the abruptness of shutting down discussion in this manner? Perhaps you're a scum lord trying to cover up the possibility that one of your teammates has the box???

[Balki Bartokomous]

I a free with you 100%....but the abruptness of shutting down discussion in this manner? Perhaps you're a scum lord trying to cover up the possibility that one of your teammates has the box???

Perhaps. Let's talk about that. Do you find that likely? Explain.

[Jamiet99uk]

Just hold off on claiming the box for a while, and wait to say who you passed the box to until they have passed the box. If scum got the box to start, they would love to not say who they are passing it to and just pass it between themselves until the last item. IMO we need to have claims at some point to have a verifiable trail for going into late game

This logic you explained is why I believe that the box HAD to start in a town players hands because it would make scum so OP and almost impossible to stop.

Jeez, can we have one game in which people just don't assume the GMs are liars, pleeeease? The GM has said that the box begins with a RANDOM player. You are accusing the GM of lying. Just don't. Stop it. Seriously.

[bozotheclown]

"Direct kills".... How?

Well, if a box holder claims and says who they are passing the box to, if scum act like worcej says they will, they would want to continue to kill whoever the box got passed to, thus the person holding the box would be able to "direct" the next kill based on who they pass the box to.

I don't see how your idea would benefit the town at all - assuming the box is in the mafia hands, which they wouldn't know yet because no QT discussion, by claiming it they would benefit more from the claim.

If the item is in a townies hand, then they would be getting a free elimination of the item unless doctor saves, which forces the doctor's save immediately instead of possibly protecting a PR - unless the box holder is also a PR... but that would still make the holder an obvious target down the road.

The benefit of claiming is that it limits the power of the box if it gets in mafia hands by forcing the mafia to give away its location. While it is more likely in town hands now, every night it gets moved gives the mafia another chance to obtain it, if they did not get lucky and have it already. Without claims, once the mafia get the box, they can perform a list, NK the player who gave them the box, then pass the box among themselves.

[Jamiet99uk]

I am quoting this for the benefit of Worcej:

Pandora’s Box

Pandora’s Box is an item that is passed around between players and grants various items and effects. It begins with a random player at the start of Day 1. It contains 4-6 items. The number of items is randomly determined, and the items in the box are randomly drawn from the following list.

Ok, Worcej?

[Balki Bartokomous]

Jeez, can we have one game in which people just don't assume the GMs are liars, pleeeease? The GM has said that the box begins with a RANDOM player. You are accusing the GM of lying. Just don't. Stop it. Seriously.

You seem mad. Are you mad?

[bozotheclown]

Let's stop talking about the box. Don't claim anything about the box today. That's final.

Let's figure out who is scum.

Go -- figure it out.

I think it is worth discussing the pros and cons of forcing the box holder to claim. If the box is already in mafia control, the mafia would definitely benefit from not talking about the box.

[Jamiet99uk]

Jeez, can we have one game in which people just don't assume the GMs are liars, pleeeease? The GM has said that the box begins with a RANDOM player. You are accusing the GM of lying. Just don't. Stop it. Seriously.

You seem mad. Are you mad?

As a fairly regular GM it really, really annoys me when someone says the GM is outright lying about the setup. Any GM who would do that isn't fit to GM - and to accuse Foxcastle of this, as Worcej has done, is totally insulting and he should apologise.

[Balki Bartokomous]

As a fairly regular GM it really, really annoys me when someone says the GM is outright lying about the setup. Any GM who would do that isn't fit to GM - and to accuse Foxcastle of this, as Worcej has done, is totally insulting and he should apologise.

This sounds like it's really important to you. I suggest that you write a strongly worded letter after this game is over to secure that apology for Foxcastle.

For now, please tell us who is scum and why.