M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[Bonatogether]

Who do you think is better in LYLO, me or MadMonarch?

macca tbh

So I have to point out how bad this take is by Bona. MM is basically not playing the game, so it is extremely bad for town if MM ends up in the endgame. MM would not discuss or argue or make valid points and would probably place an ill-considered vote. MM is extremely bad for town, irrespective of actual alignment.

I do not necessarily think Bona’s statement is alignment indicative, but it IS part of the issue. There is a meta here that is extremely permissive of anti-town behaviour. This is part of why towns here lose without investigative roles. I fully admit I have adopted this kind of bad behaviour at times WHEN I HAVE ROLLED TOWN. I am realizing now how terrible that is. It massively undermines town. But I think this is actually a meta issue, where anti-town behaviour is acceptable.

I get it is a social game and we want to have fun and make jokes. I don’t want to take that away - it is part of the joy of the game here. But if we want town to win we need to stop rewarding scummy behaviour.

i think it's simply wrong to believe that i'd rather have a player i townread less rather than a player i townread more

[Bonatogether]

I realize I surely sound holier-than-thou. I am working through my thought process of how to play better next time as I admittedly think we are cooked. Nonetheless I will be playing out the game with this mentality and not trying to make hero calls on people who are playing more townie.

Late game town apathy is a serious condition that BB should write a post on in the discord.

But this game is a long haul and it's been fast. The 24 hour phases honestly are keeping me more engaged since something is happening every day IRL.

im apathetic because i don't ever get the downtime to leave

[Bonatogether]

First, I want to apologize for the Dousing kill. I had little time to process and nobody who came to mind I particularly wanted to vote, so I voted the main counterwagon even though in a more sane state of mind I would have pushed hard for someone better. Dousing generally seemed Town to me this game, he was acting "normal", but I hadn't thought of him much, so when my discipline slipped I allowed myself to make a terrible vote.

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
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Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

sweet asked me to respond to this.

Essentially, I think the whole situation is WIFOM as to whether this makes sweet town or scum. If scum!sweet fakeclaimed, there are reasons for and against the scum team to acknowledge that claim. Maybe they were okay sacrificing sweet. Maybe they did not want to clear it in case sweet later flipped. There's plenty of plays mafia could have made here that stay consistent with sweet fakeclaiming a PR. Not to mention that Vecna's claim made it a situation that scum had to deal with quickly, and would not be able to slowly plot out themselves.

As I stated before, I am backing away from trying to think of people as "scum." I am thinking about who is bad for town. Fake-claiming confuses the game state and is an anti-town behaviour, and sweet did it twice. That is why sweet ended up in my "ANTI-TOWN" block in my wall post earlier.

Perhaps I would change my mind if I wanted to make hero plays, but as I said, I am just going to play money ball now. On balance sweet is negative EV for town and has to go.

I firmly believe fake claiming is absolutely not anti-town unless the real PRs are incompetent. I will restate that belief after the game too when people can see my alignment doesn't influence my opinion.

So please consider me anti-town every game because that is not changing.

fakeclaiming is called fake for a reason

[Bonatogether]

Well, assuming there are 3 mafia prs left and 2 town left, it is statistically likely that food is scum if he is being truthful about his chats with the dead

the different signals proving it's really them speaking don't actually prove food is town or that anything else he relays is accurate

[Bonatogether]

Everyone please be cautious with your votes. As sweet pointed out, a power may come into effect that locks your vote in. If you are town, it is worthwhile to hold your vote and really, really think if you care about winning.

fuck prs

[Bonatogether]

Oh, I forgot Vecna. You are right, I am statistically more likely to be scum.

In a similar vein, Will… do you believe the battlemaster is mafia or town?

probbaly mafia atp

In that case, how statistically likely do you think it is the scum would use the BM power on D2, and Eden/lfischl is scum? Please look at the wagons that day.

could it not set up a fakeclaim? they just need one person to go deep, and with 6 scum members, they have a deep bench. also, the tadpole is after this, so he could be town and then tadpoled.

[Bonatogether]

sweet really has to die for the fakeclaims

like there's simply zero way to have fakeclaims survive

however i think i agree with kak as quoted by food, in that town players need to ask why they're alive. it's simply because they're either wrong or easy targets

[Bonatogether]

The only thing that will “unravel” if you flip me is your farcical self-image as a competent mafia player.

Eden is actually pretty nice. He's willing to resort to insults because he is scum. Because he respects the game and wants to give us the greatest challenge possible when he is Mafia. So he is happy to use emotional trickery.

Town Eden would not insult me here.

town eden has flamed people before, so this is not a point of fact

[Bonatogether]

Look at Eden's votes each day. He's literally never voted Mafia at any point any day. Impressive.

we haven't flipped scum in forever

[sweetandcool]

The only thing that will “unravel” if you flip me is your farcical self-image as a competent mafia player.

Eden is actually pretty nice. He's willing to resort to insults because he is scum. Because he respects the game and wants to give us the greatest challenge possible when he is Mafia. So he is happy to use emotional trickery.

Town Eden would not insult me here.

town eden has flamed people before, so this is not a point of fact

He has flamed people.

He would not flame ME, HERE

[sweetandcool]

sweet really has to die for the fakeclaims

like there's simply zero way to have fakeclaims survive

however i think i agree with kak as quoted by food, in that town players need to ask why they're alive. it's simply because they're either wrong or easy targets

I never thought you would play like a crusty old person.

I am shocked.

[Bonatogether]

bona my son please solve the game now

i'm tired of this game

i also haven't oriented properly.

[Bonatogether]

sweet really has to die for the fakeclaims

like there's simply zero way to have fakeclaims survive

however i think i agree with kak as quoted by food, in that town players need to ask why they're alive. it's simply because they're either wrong or easy targets

I never thought you would play like a crusty old person.

I am shocked.

lmao gtfo. claiming is deeply serious and even if you are town, we need to know that.

[Bonatogether]

Yes...he fake claimed WHEN HE KNEW the following:

food COULD NOT BE TOWN if his PR claim was correct.

Yet he didn't vote food.

sweet is 100% scum. There is no doubt.

That's straight up wrong. We have three PRs plus Food is is probably Town. That leaves one PR unaccounted for.

Bunny is scumslipping by betraying the fact he KNOWS a PR is the tadpole.

I'm ASSUMING the necro is a town!PR too

no way you're assuming the janitor shot someone and didn't claim

[Bonatogether]

partially i'm just not in the mood to get in the flame war that i know i will enter if i make a beefy scum case on the people i scumread

[Bonatogether]

Sweet it’s really hard to vote with you when you think I’m scum

I've stated that I could be wrong about one of aaro and Colby.

But sometimes you gotta work with someone who is scum reading you. That is the game.

I said days ago I think Aaro is signaling helpfulness and not giving really any options but not sure flipping them tells us enough here

i agree that aaro is an all image and no substance player

[Bonatogether]

Is monarch? Is aaro? Am I even? How much do you get from those

Yes. Monarch is least for sure. But everyone has votes. Everyone reacts/reacted to those wagons. Some people were surprised, some weren't etc.
I care a lot about how will reacted to Dousing, for example. Not enough other people seem to though, so we're doing the next best thing: sheeping good players and sheeping the dead, confirmed town.

What is sheeping

sheep dn

[sweetandcool]

sweet really has to die for the fakeclaims

like there's simply zero way to have fakeclaims survive

however i think i agree with kak as quoted by food, in that town players need to ask why they're alive. it's simply because they're either wrong or easy targets

I never thought you would play like a crusty old person.

I am shocked.

lmao gtfo. claiming is deeply serious and even if you are town, we need to know that.

Ugh I'll just let you get on with reading the thread.

But even though you hate mechs, there is a strong possibility today is LYLO. So flipping for info is not a good mindset.

I am either scum or not. There's no such thing as flipping to see if I am town.

[Bonatogether]

Eden is actually pretty nice. He's willing to resort to insults because he is scum. Because he respects the game and wants to give us the greatest challenge possible when he is Mafia. So he is happy to use emotional trickery.

Town Eden would not insult me here.

town eden has flamed people before, so this is not a point of fact

He has flamed people.

He would not flame ME, HERE

unsure your reasoning

[Bonatogether]

I never thought you would play like a crusty old person.

I am shocked.

lmao gtfo. claiming is deeply serious and even if you are town, we need to know that.

Ugh I'll just let you get on with reading the thread.

But even though you hate mechs, there is a strong possibility today is LYLO. So flipping for info is not a good mindset.

I am either scum or not. There's no such thing as flipping to see if I am town.

i mean for me i'm at a point when i lack the single piece of information to orient myself around.

futhermore i don't believe we're at lylo. if that's the worst case scenario, we have to operate on that assumption, but i don't believe it to be the case