M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[TheMadMonarch]

nnnonononoo. You don't have time to *just log on* before EoD and process everything that had happened including the SnC fakeclaim+retraction bullshit and make a meme about it and not have time to vote him.

What do you mean "make a meme". Its a stock format. 5th along when I seached for it. Finding that is 30 seconds tops, and Will already explained how he did it in between phases.

Do we have a real reason for voting him? Cause this aint it.

[sweetandcool]

So I have to point out how bad this take is by Bona. MM is basically not playing the game, so it is extremely bad for town if MM ends up in the endgame. MM would not discuss or argue or make valid points and would probably place an ill-considered vote. MM is extremely bad for town, irrespective of actual alignment.

I do not necessarily think Bona’s statement is alignment indicative, but it IS part of the issue. There is a meta here that is extremely permissive of anti-town behaviour. This is part of why towns here lose without investigative roles. I fully admit I have adopted this kind of bad behaviour at times WHEN I HAVE ROLLED TOWN. I am realizing now how terrible that is. It massively undermines town. But I think this is actually a meta issue, where anti-town behaviour is acceptable.

I get it is a social game and we want to have fun and make jokes. I don’t want to take that away - it is part of the joy of the game here. But if we want town to win we need to stop rewarding scummy behaviour.

I've made posts in the past regarding the need to eliminate non-participants and been ignored for it. I just gave up trying to push that perspective because people took it negatively.

Our best case is Monarch is scum and we're not losing a miskill. The worst case is we're using a miskill, but eliminating someone who isn't able to actively engage anyways.

Apologies for getting distracted and moving away from this line of thinking previously.

Although I grouped all three of them together, I think that sweet and Just are better eliminations before MM, as if they flip scum there is information to be gleaned from them. MM has played so little that there is less potential value to eliminating her, because she has made fewer associations.

Food, can you focus by at least reading/reacting to my long post? Tell me it's horseshit like Bunny did, anything.

[Col7by]

I realize I surely sound holier-than-thou. I am working through my thought process of how to play better next time as I admittedly think we are cooked. Nonetheless I will be playing out the game with this mentality and not trying to make hero calls on people who are playing more townie.

Late game town apathy is a serious condition that BB should write a post on in the discord.

But this game is a long haul and it's been fast. The 24 hour phases honestly are keeping me more engaged since something is happening every day IRL.

So by this logic wouldn’t madmonarch not be benefiting scum chat either and we should go for someone who would be more active and beneficial in it?

[foodcoats]

First, I want to apologize for the Dousing kill. I had little time to process and nobody who came to mind I particularly wanted to vote, so I voted the main counterwagon even though in a more sane state of mind I would have pushed hard for someone better. Dousing generally seemed Town to me this game, he was acting "normal", but I hadn't thought of him much, so when my discipline slipped I allowed myself to make a terrible vote.

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

sweet asked me to respond to this.

Essentially, I think the whole situation is WIFOM as to whether this makes sweet town or scum. If scum!sweet fakeclaimed, there are reasons for and against the scum team to acknowledge that claim. Maybe they were okay sacrificing sweet. Maybe they did not want to clear it in case sweet later flipped. There's plenty of plays mafia could have made here that stay consistent with sweet fakeclaiming a PR. Not to mention that Vecna's claim made it a situation that scum had to deal with quickly, and would not be able to slowly plot out themselves.

As I stated before, I am backing away from trying to think of people as "scum." I am thinking about who is bad for town. Fake-claiming confuses the game state and is an anti-town behaviour, and sweet did it twice. That is why sweet ended up in my "ANTI-TOWN" block in my wall post earlier.

Perhaps I would change my mind if I wanted to make hero plays, but as I said, I am just going to play money ball now. On balance sweet is negative EV for town and has to go.

[sweetandcool]

First, I want to apologize for the Dousing kill. I had little time to process and nobody who came to mind I particularly wanted to vote, so I voted the main counterwagon even though in a more sane state of mind I would have pushed hard for someone better. Dousing generally seemed Town to me this game, he was acting "normal", but I hadn't thought of him much, so when my discipline slipped I allowed myself to make a terrible vote.

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

sweet asked me to respond to this.

Essentially, I think the whole situation is WIFOM as to whether this makes sweet town or scum. If scum!sweet fakeclaimed, there are reasons for and against the scum team to acknowledge that claim. Maybe they were okay sacrificing sweet. Maybe they did not want to clear it in case sweet later flipped. There's plenty of plays mafia could have made here that stay consistent with sweet fakeclaiming a PR. Not to mention that Vecna's claim made it a situation that scum had to deal with quickly, and would not be able to slowly plot out themselves.

As I stated before, I am backing away from trying to think of people as "scum." I am thinking about who is bad for town. Fake-claiming confuses the game state and is an anti-town behaviour, and sweet did it twice. That is why sweet ended up in my "ANTI-TOWN" block in my wall post earlier.

Perhaps I would change my mind if I wanted to make hero plays, but as I said, I am just going to play money ball now. On balance sweet is negative EV for town and has to go.

I firmly believe fake claiming is absolutely not anti-town unless the real PRs are incompetent. I will restate that belief after the game too when people can see my alignment doesn't influence my opinion.

So please consider me anti-town every game because that is not changing.

[foodcoats]

First, I want to apologize for the Dousing kill. I had little time to process and nobody who came to mind I particularly wanted to vote, so I voted the main counterwagon even though in a more sane state of mind I would have pushed hard for someone better. Dousing generally seemed Town to me this game, he was acting "normal", but I hadn't thought of him much, so when my discipline slipped I allowed myself to make a terrible vote.

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

sweet asked me to respond to this.

Essentially, I think the whole situation is WIFOM as to whether this makes sweet town or scum. If scum!sweet fakeclaimed, there are reasons for and against the scum team to acknowledge that claim. Maybe they were okay sacrificing sweet. Maybe they did not want to clear it in case sweet later flipped. There's plenty of plays mafia could have made here that stay consistent with sweet fakeclaiming a PR. Not to mention that Vecna's claim made it a situation that scum had to deal with quickly, and would not be able to slowly plot out themselves.

As I stated before, I am backing away from trying to think of people as "scum." I am thinking about who is bad for town. Fake-claiming confuses the game state and is an anti-town behaviour, and sweet did it twice. That is why sweet ended up in my "ANTI-TOWN" block in my wall post earlier.

Perhaps I would change my mind if I wanted to make hero plays, but as I said, I am just going to play money ball now. On balance sweet is negative EV for town and has to go.

I firmly believe fake claiming is absolutely not anti-town unless the real PRs are incompetent. I will restate that belief after the game too when people can see my alignment doesn't influence my opinion.

So please consider me anti-town every game because that is not changing.

Maybe I’m wrong. What was the pro-town effect of:

-faking a guilty scan?
-faking a PR when you are a VT?

[sweetandcool]

sweet asked me to respond to this.

Essentially, I think the whole situation is WIFOM as to whether this makes sweet town or scum. If scum!sweet fakeclaimed, there are reasons for and against the scum team to acknowledge that claim. Maybe they were okay sacrificing sweet. Maybe they did not want to clear it in case sweet later flipped. There's plenty of plays mafia could have made here that stay consistent with sweet fakeclaiming a PR. Not to mention that Vecna's claim made it a situation that scum had to deal with quickly, and would not be able to slowly plot out themselves.

As I stated before, I am backing away from trying to think of people as "scum." I am thinking about who is bad for town. Fake-claiming confuses the game state and is an anti-town behaviour, and sweet did it twice. That is why sweet ended up in my "ANTI-TOWN" block in my wall post earlier.

Perhaps I would change my mind if I wanted to make hero plays, but as I said, I am just going to play money ball now. On balance sweet is negative EV for town and has to go.

I firmly believe fake claiming is absolutely not anti-town unless the real PRs are incompetent. I will restate that belief after the game too when people can see my alignment doesn't influence my opinion.

So please consider me anti-town every game because that is not changing.

Maybe I’m wrong. What was the pro-town effect of:

-faking a guilty scan?
-faking a PR when you are a VT?

I am prepping an EoN post. An actual one with at least some of the usual trademark sweetandcool effort involved.

This game is nearly solved, if Town resists the urge to follow emotion and MK me.

Your questions should be answered EoN, more or less.

[Ezio]

nnnonononoo. You don't have time to *just log on* before EoD and process everything that had happened including the SnC fakeclaim+retraction bullshit and make a meme about it and not have time to vote him.

What do you mean "make a meme". Its a stock format. 5th along when I seached for it. Finding that is 30 seconds tops, and Will already explained how he did it in between phases.

Do we have a real reason for voting him? Cause this aint it.

Hello! Glad to see you posting and engaging with the game.

Did you read the part where will said he just made it back by EoD, but he seemingly had time to read and process Sweet's claims and retractions?
This screams lurky, cocky scum who lied and slipped.
He's throwing shit on the EoD wagons while not voting for the counterwagon or pushing for any alternative.

[foodcoats]

nnnonononoo. You don't have time to *just log on* before EoD and process everything that had happened including the SnC fakeclaim+retraction bullshit and make a meme about it and not have time to vote him.

What do you mean "make a meme". Its a stock format. 5th along when I seached for it. Finding that is 30 seconds tops, and Will already explained how he did it in between phases.

Do we have a real reason for voting him? Cause this aint it.

Hello! Glad to see you posting and engaging with the game.

Did you read the part where will said he just made it back by EoD, but he seemingly had time to read and process Sweet's claims and retractions?
This screams lurky, cocky scum who lied and slipped.
He's throwing shit on the EoD wagons while not voting for the counterwagon or pushing for any alternative.

I did not see this… will review.

[Ezio]

Guys i literally got on like a few seconds before the timechange

Page 337. Check it out

[sweetandcool]

Also Food, you are planning on posting the graveyard chat, right?

[foodcoats]

Also Food, you are planning on posting the graveyard chat, right?

I was going to make a joke about not actually being the cleric of knowledge, but that would be a dumb sweet play.

[foodcoats]

Also Food, you are planning on posting the graveyard chat, right?

I was going to make a joke about not actually being the cleric of knowledge, but that would be a dumb sweet play.

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

I have asked the dead to streamline their thoughts into appropriate soundbytes.

Currently, yoyo would like darg to provide him oysters and whiskey.

[sweetandcool]

Also Food, you are planning on posting the graveyard chat, right?

I was going to make a joke about not actually being the cleric of knowledge, but that would be a dumb sweet play.

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

I have asked the dead to streamline their thoughts into appropriate soundbytes.

Currently, yoyo would like darg to provide him oysters and whiskey.

Good, thank you. I didn't want it to randomly get dropped, very curious what the dead have to say about Ezio and worcej.

[sweetandcool]

Also Food, you are planning on posting the graveyard chat, right?

I was going to make a joke about not actually being the cleric of knowledge, but that would be a dumb sweet play.

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

I have asked the dead to streamline their thoughts into appropriate soundbytes.

Currently, yoyo would like darg to provide him oysters and whiskey.

You okay IRL? You just seem grumpy compared to normal.

[foodcoats]

Guys i literally got on like a few seconds before the timechange

Page 337. Check it out

In reviewing this, it feels like you are drawing more conclusions than what is actually in Just's iso.

Nonetheless, it doesn't make Just a townread (or you a scumread)! I think this speaks well to your search for solutions, and it shows further the problem with how memey and shitposty Just is playing.

[foodcoats]

I was going to make a joke about not actually being the cleric of knowledge, but that would be a dumb sweet play.

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

I have asked the dead to streamline their thoughts into appropriate soundbytes.

Currently, yoyo would like darg to provide him oysters and whiskey.

You okay IRL? You just seem grumpy compared to normal.

Everything is good, but I probably need to lighten up. Sometimes I take games too seriously!

[foodcoats]

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

I have asked the dead to streamline their thoughts into appropriate soundbytes.

Currently, yoyo would like darg to provide him oysters and whiskey.

You okay IRL? You just seem grumpy compared to normal.

Everything is good, but I probably need to lighten up. Sometimes I take games too seriously!

(Sometimes = 97.5% of the time.)

[foodcoats]

THIS AFTERNOON - ON GRAVECHAT
An early edition... for those born too late*

The Krypt Thing of Kakarroto says:
"Listen to your heart, or
what
your brain
says.

We are currently
not sure,
and
many theories wander 'round,
each at the same time likely and
...
unlikely.

We don't seem close to a solution, so
in this case,
the
living players
should
decide the fate of the game.

One
advice
though;
you should ask yourself
"WHY AM I ALIVE GOD
WHY AM I ALIVE"
This train of thought has often provided me with great insight.
Use it yourself,
and you might
see
more
than
we
...in here.

Remember, you know your own alignment,
and thus
you know more than we in here,
the graveyard (chat).
Use that knowledge
wisely."

The Krypt Thing of Kakarroto also says:

As a special, and personal, request, we, his majesty by God's grace, the emperor of Austria, king of Hungary and Bohemia, of Dalmacia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria, and Illyria, King of Jerusalem (honorary only), Archduke of Austria, Greatduke of Toskana (honorary only) and Krakow, Duke of Lotharingia (honorary only), of Salzburg, of Steyer, Carinthia, Krain and the Bukovina, Greatprince to Transylvania, Margrave of Moravia, Duke of Upper and Lower Silesia (honorary only), of Modena (honorary only), Parma (honorary only), Piacenza (honorary only) and Quastalla (honorary only), of Auschwitz and Zator, of Teschen, Friuli, Ragusa and Zara, princely Earl of Habsburg and Tyrol, Kyburg, Görz and Gradiska, Prince of Trentino and Brixen, Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia and in Istria, Earl of Hohenems, Feldkirch, Bregenz, Sonnenberg etc., Sir of Trieste, of Cattaro and the Windisch Mark, Great Voivode of the Voivodia Serbia etc. , thinks that Ezio and Worcej look quite towny, and if they are mafia, they have pulled the wool over our head.

The ghost of ghuh sends a personal message to aarodactyl: "Tim Lopes, and let him know his premise is valid."

*The editor reserves the right to publish additional editions at full cover price. Subscribers must pay the full cover price for any additional editions published today or at a later date. All forms of townreading accepted as payment.

[Ezio]

Guys i literally got on like a few seconds before the timechange

Page 337. Check it out

In reviewing this, it feels like you are drawing more conclusions than what is actually in Just's iso.

Nonetheless, it doesn't make Just a townread (or you a scumread)! I think this speaks well to your search for solutions, and it shows further the problem with how memey and shitposty Just is playing.

Games aren't played in isoloation. He used him just coming back as a justification for not being on a wagon.

Like, he comes back and his post is this WHAT that's notably *after* Eod. That feels like *such* scum theatre.
I just don't think there's any way he could have possibly *just* come back to the game, and read everything that occured in time. Even if he literally just searched for the meme and got it ready in the 2 minutes or whatever, I don't believe he would have had time to read the whole thing.
I just don't accept for a second that he was actually gone the way he claims he was.