M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[TheMadMonarch]

Yes, I also recently posted about how Flum talked about the BM before he died and it indicates scum BM to me.

And the necromancer?

Well I had thought they were scum because they did not claim at EON and hence we might’ve lost ghug’s alignment. You told me they might not reveal if they were town and ghug was VT and that convinced me to open up my interpretation. I’m ambivalent on it right now.

I'm still on team Town!Necro. I realise that this is a real issue, but I think the necro could leave a crumb that we would spot upon their death. PR's get killed (generally).

[TheMadMonarch]

Let me guess: cvecna got killed or something

Yup

No he didn’t! I just checked the boy

Checking the Boy

Will, if you keep making silly typos, I have to keep making silly posts! Check your spelling so I can behave!

[TheMadMonarch]

Oh shoot, now I see something to do with number of PR claims that might be swaying the vote incorrectly.

I give up, I was fake claiming, I am VT.

Buddy... Really?


I don't say much, but at least I'm not going around lying.

[TheMadMonarch]

EOD was funny. 3 posts after STOP.

I mean, town dying was bad. But 3 people posting after the stop makes me laugh.

[TheMadMonarch]

So, after that day spinning horribly out of control, I did what I do whenever I fail at something I'd like to do well at: I look at a guide.

The guide's advice put me back on the idea of a POE. POE is something I've sort of "abandoned" because it often does not work to catch all the scum. But as I try the approach, I realize that the advantage of a POE is that it is a process, and that if it is begun early, it can allow you to, if not catch scum, at least winnow out the anti- or bad town - and possibly catch the bad scum, too. This means that, in the late game, you don't have to deal with problematic players like lurkers and shitposters; you can focus on the slippery scum.

I realize this and become both optimistic and pessimistic: on the one hand, the RHK, yoyo, and Dousing elims were actually good eliminations because they were not being helpful to town (RHK had gone full lurk; Dousing was overly defensive and absent; yoyo's approach came off as shitposting and random). On the other hand, when I see that we still have three characters who are anti- or bad town town, I realize we likely have already lost. Nonetheless, I am putting forward this exercise to stretch my muscles and remind myself to do it more systematically and effectively next time.

STRONG TOWN
Foxcastle cannot be voted out at this point because he is demonstrably, factually pro-town. Shooting Flum could be a deep scum play, but it is so generally beneficial to town, in a game where we've had few wins, that it would be madness to consider killing Fox until the very end game. Also, Fox has seemed to want to solve the game.

Ezio, while I clashed with him early on, seems very interested in solving the game. He is acting in a pro-town manner. He has aggressively pushed certain wagons, like mine and Dousing's, which, while wrong, still shows he wants to see flips on people he scumreads. While there are little ticks that make me wonder if he might be scum, and he is not so clear as Fox, he is very pro-town and he is the kind of player we need on our side if we are to win. If Ezio is one of the few players who is thoughtfully solving and is scum, we have lost.

MIDDLING TOWN
Col7by I am surprised to find myself placing this high. However, when I think about the statements that Col7by makes, they do strike me as being thoughtful. They are not formatted or put together in a way that make a super strong impact in the threads, however, and Col7by does not take charge of the reads he has - he more complains that others won't join him. Nonetheless, he is a strong middling town because he does appear to want to contribute to the solve, to read the game, and to vote out his scumreads. Any vote against Col7by would be an attempt to make a "hero call." This is a player who, if the game is further winnowed down, seems like someone who can be relied on to provide accurate, if brief, statements of their beliefs, and vote accordingly to their clearly described reads.

President Eden, while I townread him based on VCA, is acting in a way that to me feels less strongly town than the others above. Eden hyperfocused on the duel VCA and, other than that, has actively solved less than others, focusing on a sheeping strategy at the last EOD. This is a "middling" town because I am not certain how convicted Eden would be in the late game. I have no intention whatsoever of voting for Eden, I merely note this here as an opportunity for Eden to get more in on the solve.

BunnyGo has contributed a lot, but I struggle to recall strong opinions or pushes from Bunny. Bunny appears more to want to appear to be active than to make any significant impact on the game. There is a lot of content that Bunny has provided that can be analyzed, and Bunny at least makes thoughtful votes, so in the end, he is at least doing something and can be part of the middling town. However, Bunny needs to make an effort to be more concise and convincing.

worcej feels close to null for me. Worcej makes statements but does not appear to be solving, from my perspective. Fox may have had it right in saying worcej is playing a bland game. If worcej were to die and flip scum, it would be hard to derive much from his flip, because of the nature of worcej's game. But worcej has a keen mind and has made clear, concise statements. He argues and he makes his position known. Worcej is still very valuable to town.

NULLS
aarodactyl is very null. aaro has said quite a lot that I don't remember. He strikes me as waffling. He spends a great deal of time talking about his schedule. Ultimately, he is not helping contribute to meaningful reads for town. On the other hand, he is not doing anything to truly undermine town, so he is not someone we need to eliminate right now.

Bonatogether, while having pro-town moments, is actually somewhat anti-town. Without trying to make this overly personal, Bona's approach is to shout others down and call them or their arguments names. Bona at least does have decent arguments at times and also makes his positions clear (for example his hard drive on Flavius). But his attitude drives wedges and makes it harder to understand him. He ultimately is divisive when town needs unity. He is a problematic player and is probably the first one we would have to sort if we can successfully flip the three below without losing.

ANTI TOWN
TheMadMonarch is majorly passive anti-town. MM has not offered any meaningful explanations for any of her reads and has not shown any true care or interest in playing or solving the game. MM needs to be eliminated for town to have a chance to win.

JustAGuyNamedWill is aggressively anti-town. Will has said he has not read the game closely and makes provocative statements to no good end. Even if Will is town, his reads will never be beneficial to town; even if they are right, they will be randomly right and he will never be able to communicate them to us (if he even wants to). Will has to be eliminated for town to have a chance to win.

sweetandcool is majorly aggressively anti-town. sweet has, like Will, said he is not reading the game closely or analyzing his reads. In addition, he has fake claimed twice. sweetandcool is actually actively undermining the ability of town to make sense of the game. Sweetandcool must be eliminated for town to have a chance to win.

I like the first half of this, but moreso, I love your use of colours in the titles.

[TheMadMonarch]

i see three people died actually?? (bongo vindicated in not reading past the first line)

well done to whoever on vecna

guys i'm almost to 5000 karma, please +1 me

+1'd you from 5000 to 5001. Rekt

[TheMadMonarch]

There was talk of policy killing me, which I sort of get. With a bit of work, I can probably appear for an important EOD. But not regularly. Apologies.

[TheMadMonarch]

People have asked what I'm doing here, and I will let you know the simple answer.

When I make my posts, and none of you interact with me, I am functionally talking to myself.

I am the only way you all pass the Bechdel test.

[brainbomb]

GM NOTE
TheMadMonarch should be referred to only as TheMadMonarch. Their username is TheMadMonarch. Please discontinue usage of their old username.

[sweetandcool]

i see three people died actually?? (bongo vindicated in not reading past the first line)

well done to whoever on vecna

guys i'm almost to 5000 karma, please +1 me

also why couldn't flum be stephen harper

This might be a scum slip. Flum was saying in the graveyard how he wanted brain to make him Stephen of the Harpers. It’s a pretty obvious joke but Flum SPECIFICALLY said this is what he wanted.

This makes backwards sense.

[TheMadMonarch]

I was getting on the food train, but he has almost double 2nd place's posts. Why?

He was previously mostly in the lower half of the posters for out previous days. When he caught heat, he started saying more, to appear more active.

Look at his posts. I noticed this as I went through. Lots of nothings, lots of call to actions, a number of "oh, dead people told me to do this".

At least I'm not pretending that I'm being super helpful and solve-y.

Think before you speak. Or even, think at all.

[President Eden]

I think you missed the memo MM. Bona should have told you in scumchat that y’all can’t realistically push foodcoats anymore

[sweetandcool]

First, I want to apologize for the Dousing kill. I had little time to process and nobody who came to mind I particularly wanted to vote, so I voted the main counterwagon even though in a more sane state of mind I would have pushed hard for someone better. Dousing generally seemed Town to me this game, he was acting "normal", but I hadn't thought of him much, so when my discipline slipped I allowed myself to make a terrible vote.

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

This is such horse shit.

Sweet is a SOLVER.

Sweet is someone who PRIDES THEMSELF ON BEING GOOD AT MATH AND PUZZLES.

There is 0 chance Sweet hasn't been keeping track of PRs and their alignments for solving if he's town.

Hence Sweet = Scum.

I will be voting Sweet tomorrow. The only reason I won't be ending is that I want the game to slow down a little.

I haven't. Or at least not to the degree you apparently are expecting.

The last two days I've been playing a little in the morning and then otherwise essentially during piss breaks.

Anyways, I expect you to comprehend an easy and practically ironclad argument. Try reading it again (:

[worcej]

Who do you think is better in LYLO, me or MadMonarch?

macca tbh

So I have to point out how bad this take is by Bona. MM is basically not playing the game, so it is extremely bad for town if MM ends up in the endgame. MM would not discuss or argue or make valid points and would probably place an ill-considered vote. MM is extremely bad for town, irrespective of actual alignment.

I do not necessarily think Bona’s statement is alignment indicative, but it IS part of the issue. There is a meta here that is extremely permissive of anti-town behaviour. This is part of why towns here lose without investigative roles. I fully admit I have adopted this kind of bad behaviour at times WHEN I HAVE ROLLED TOWN. I am realizing now how terrible that is. It massively undermines town. But I think this is actually a meta issue, where anti-town behaviour is acceptable.

I get it is a social game and we want to have fun and make jokes. I don’t want to take that away - it is part of the joy of the game here. But if we want town to win we need to stop rewarding scummy behaviour.

I've made posts in the past regarding the need to eliminate non-participants and been ignored for it. I just gave up trying to push that perspective because people took it negatively.

Our best case is Monarch is scum and we're not losing a miskill. The worst case is we're using a miskill, but eliminating someone who isn't able to actively engage anyways.

[worcej]

I realize I surely sound holier-than-thou. I am working through my thought process of how to play better next time as I admittedly think we are cooked. Nonetheless I will be playing out the game with this mentality and not trying to make hero calls on people who are playing more townie.

Late game town apathy is a serious condition that BB should write a post on in the discord.

But this game is a long haul and it's been fast. The 24 hour phases honestly are keeping me more engaged since something is happening every day IRL.

[foodcoats]

macca tbh

So I have to point out how bad this take is by Bona. MM is basically not playing the game, so it is extremely bad for town if MM ends up in the endgame. MM would not discuss or argue or make valid points and would probably place an ill-considered vote. MM is extremely bad for town, irrespective of actual alignment.

I do not necessarily think Bona’s statement is alignment indicative, but it IS part of the issue. There is a meta here that is extremely permissive of anti-town behaviour. This is part of why towns here lose without investigative roles. I fully admit I have adopted this kind of bad behaviour at times WHEN I HAVE ROLLED TOWN. I am realizing now how terrible that is. It massively undermines town. But I think this is actually a meta issue, where anti-town behaviour is acceptable.

I get it is a social game and we want to have fun and make jokes. I don’t want to take that away - it is part of the joy of the game here. But if we want town to win we need to stop rewarding scummy behaviour.

I've made posts in the past regarding the need to eliminate non-participants and been ignored for it. I just gave up trying to push that perspective because people took it negatively.

Our best case is Monarch is scum and we're not losing a miskill. The worst case is we're using a miskill, but eliminating someone who isn't able to actively engage anyways.

Apologies for getting distracted and moving away from this line of thinking previously.

Although I grouped all three of them together, I think that sweet and Just are better eliminations before MM, as if they flip scum there is information to be gleaned from them. MM has played so little that there is less potential value to eliminating her, because she has made fewer associations.

[foodcoats]

I realize I surely sound holier-than-thou. I am working through my thought process of how to play better next time as I admittedly think we are cooked. Nonetheless I will be playing out the game with this mentality and not trying to make hero calls on people who are playing more townie.

Late game town apathy is a serious condition that BB should write a post on in the discord.

But this game is a long haul and it's been fast. The 24 hour phases honestly are keeping me more engaged since something is happening every day IRL.

I think 24/24 is great, personally... even though I am frustrated at the game state. I know most people will probably prefer the traditional 48/24. At the very least, we can say that 24/24 is better than 48/24 with silent nights.

[TheMadMonarch]

So I have to point out how bad this take is by Bona. MM is basically not playing the game, so it is extremely bad for town if MM ends up in the endgame. MM would not discuss or argue or make valid points and would probably place an ill-considered vote. MM is extremely bad for town, irrespective of actual alignment.

I do not necessarily think Bona’s statement is alignment indicative, but it IS part of the issue. There is a meta here that is extremely permissive of anti-town behaviour. This is part of why towns here lose without investigative roles. I fully admit I have adopted this kind of bad behaviour at times WHEN I HAVE ROLLED TOWN. I am realizing now how terrible that is. It massively undermines town. But I think this is actually a meta issue, where anti-town behaviour is acceptable.

I get it is a social game and we want to have fun and make jokes. I don’t want to take that away - it is part of the joy of the game here. But if we want town to win we need to stop rewarding scummy behaviour.

I've made posts in the past regarding the need to eliminate non-participants and been ignored for it. I just gave up trying to push that perspective because people took it negatively.

Our best case is Monarch is scum and we're not losing a miskill. The worst case is we're using a miskill, but eliminating someone who isn't able to actively engage anyways.

I'm sorry you feel that way about me. I'd like to point you to examples where I pulled though with great solving, but even in games where I do it, I'm usually wrong. I admit I do have a clear fault here, and if that's all that matters to you, go for it.

I would like to point out, however, how close we are to loosing. We've got 2(? I think?) kills left to catch someone, do you want to waste one of those shots on me?

Sure, I can't solve, but not everyone solves every game. I know how to sheep, which is what most people are doing anyway.



Team, lets vote for actual scumreads. Please.

[foodcoats]

Screenshot 2024-06-14 at 12.24.04 am.png

I was getting on the food train, but he has almost double 2nd place's posts. Why?

He was previously mostly in the lower half of the posters for out previous days. When he caught heat, he started saying more, to appear more active.

Look at his posts. I noticed this as I went through. Lots of nothings, lots of call to actions, a number of "oh, dead people told me to do this".

At least I'm not pretending that I'm being super helpful and solve-y.

Think before you speak. Or even, think at all.

This is an interesting line of criticism that was also levelled by Ezio at one point: that to become more active as the game goes on is scum-indicative. To me, this is quite ridiculous even completely objectively ignoring my own alignment. As the game goes on, town has more information to dissect and debate. There is more meaningful sources from which to solve. Townspeople's position and ideas will naturally evolve, and they will need to discuss and consider their own changing viewpoint in text form. And the game's stakes increase, demanding more from those who wish to win.

It is clear, MadMonarch, that I am thinking a lot more than you.

[TheMadMonarch]

Screenshot 2024-06-14 at 12.24.04 am.png

I was getting on the food train, but he has almost double 2nd place's posts. Why?

He was previously mostly in the lower half of the posters for out previous days. When he caught heat, he started saying more, to appear more active.

Look at his posts. I noticed this as I went through. Lots of nothings, lots of call to actions, a number of "oh, dead people told me to do this".

At least I'm not pretending that I'm being super helpful and solve-y.

Think before you speak. Or even, think at all.

This is an interesting line of criticism that was also levelled by Ezio at one point: that to become more active as the game goes on is scum-indicative. To me, this is quite ridiculous even completely objectively ignoring my own alignment. As the game goes on, town has more information to dissect and debate. There is more meaningful sources from which to solve. Townspeople's position and ideas will naturally evolve, and they will need to discuss and consider their own changing viewpoint in text form. And the game's stakes increase, demanding more from those who wish to win.

It is clear, MadMonarch, that I am thinking a lot more than you.

Yeah, sorry for that. I got really into it at the end. I shouldn't have said that last bit. My apologies.