M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[Bonatogether]

Displeased I don’t have something to read from Bona…

soon

[foodcoats]

Well on D1, you actually questioned Dip and Jamie’s take about HB’s reads.
You never said yourself on D1 that you agreed this was scummy.
You also voted HB before you questioned Dip and Jamie.

For example here is your interaction with Jamie. Again this came after your naked HB vote. It seems like you were questioning the logic or questioning Jamie, not affirming a basis on which you had scumread HB which you never actually did before making a vote

I’m going to spam this because Ezio left the chat after trying to get everyone to keep bantering pointlessly about the BM instead of answering me.

Ezio specifically claimed that he scumread HB for reasons that, actually, Dip and War and Jamie scumread HB, and which he only quoted AFTER voting HB - and in which quotes he didn’t seem to agree that the conclusion was HB was scum. It feels like Ezio was open to a different vote, for one reason or another.

(Obviously in my conclusion, because he is scum and the HB vote was inauthentic - which also explains why his memory of it is wrong. Perhaps he and Jamie are scum together, and the HB thing is something they discussed in daychat, but Ezio is forgetting he didn’t actually write it up in the game thread.)

What are you talking about? I did not "explicitly state I scumread HB for the same reasons as Jamie and others". The only person who posted about this specific oddity was Flum who noticed it and called it out immediately.
I questioned Jamiet because if he was scum reading HB for putting someone in both townreads and scumreads I was going to have a fit, as that's just poor play, not scum play.
I was searching for inauthentic/shitty reasons to vote HB because I agree that's a good place to look for scum.

You're saying you read my iso. You saw me explain my justification for the vote later. I think it was D2.

Correct sir, you explained your D1 vote on D2.

[Bonatogether]

##vote ghug

the opp

Bona why did you vote ghug D1? What does “the opp” mean?

opp is youth slang for opposition

i voted him because i can't read him and decided i'd rather not

[Ezio]

What are you talking about? I did not "explicitly state I scumread HB for the same reasons as Jamie and others". The only person who posted about this specific oddity was Flum who noticed it and called it out immediately.
I questioned Jamiet because if he was scum reading HB for putting someone in both townreads and scumreads I was going to have a fit, as that's just poor play, not scum play.
I was searching for inauthentic/shitty reasons to vote HB because I agree that's a good place to look for scum.

You're saying you read my iso. You saw me explain my justification for the vote later. I think it was D2.
[/quote]

Correct sir, you explained your D1 vote on D2.
[/quote]

Yes. I want to confirm that your case on me boils down to:
You think there was a scum on some of the major wagons EoD1. (given that there were 18 people on the top 3 wagons at EoD, my guess is there's more than 1).
Ezio didn't post his reason for voting HB when he made the vote on D1, and therefore is likely scum for looking to coast onto a wagon.
Is that right?

Oh and on your full read post you complain that there are tons of players I've made "no mention of".

[worcej]

I would add Worcej to my list of scumreads. His game is a little too tidily town for me to think it's natural.

What is tidily?

I accept all criticism for anything post Friday morning, but will venomously OMGUS you for coming at me for the first phases

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I feel like there is 1 major factor that has town divided right now: half of us think the battlemaster was scum, and therefore D2 analysis is invalid (or outright flipped) after the duel.
The other half of us think the battlemaster was town, and therefore VCA after duel is a the most valuable information.
It's a tough one to solve, because even if the battlemaster claims we can't know if they're town or not.

You know, I just realized, even if Mafia had BM, they would still have to fake reactions to the whole thing. VCA might not be too helpful in that event, but certainly an ISO of the duel would.

Ive been wavering on sweet but he is lock town if the duel is mafia started

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

##vote ghug

the opp

Bona why did you vote ghug D1? What does “the opp” mean?

How many opps you really got i mean its too many options
I finna pass on this body im John Stockton
Beat yo ass and hide the bible if god watchin

[worcej]

I feel like there is 1 major factor that has town divided right now: half of us think the battlemaster was scum, and therefore D2 analysis is invalid (or outright flipped) after the duel.
The other half of us think the battlemaster was town, and therefore VCA after duel is a the most valuable information.
It's a tough one to solve, because even if the battlemaster claims we can't know if they're town or not.

Don’t you think the lack of any claims at this point almost exclusively make the actions from scum at this point?

[worcej]

Displeased I don’t have something to read from Bona…

i was asleep

Being a father sucks in that I rarely wake up when I want to…

[worcej]

The fish is slowing down.

How bout a ##Vote flum to spice some stuff up? I like 3 D1 wagons.

I like the flum one as well ##vote flum, will flip to damo if there's a tie, but I don't like the brian wagon here

Lfischl not here anymore to question but here is how he votes Flum D1.
Honestly in my books for D1 not awful.

It isn’t awful but it also isn’t anything to feel good about, so I am just wondering what’s your point here?

[foodcoats]

Well on D1, you actually questioned Dip and Jamie’s take about HB’s reads.
You never said yourself on D1 that you agreed this was scummy.
You also voted HB before you questioned Dip and Jamie.

For example here is your interaction with Jamie. Again this came after your naked HB vote. It seems like you were questioning the logic or questioning Jamie, not affirming a basis on which you had scumread HB which you never actually did before making a vote

I’m going to spam this because Ezio left the chat after trying to get everyone to keep bantering pointlessly about the BM instead of answering me.

Ezio specifically claimed that he scumread HB for reasons that, actually, Dip and War and Jamie scumread HB, and which he only quoted AFTER voting HB - and in which quotes he didn’t seem to agree that the conclusion was HB was scum. It feels like Ezio was open to a different vote, for one reason or another.

(Obviously in my conclusion, because he is scum and the HB vote was inauthentic - which also explains why his memory of it is wrong. Perhaps he and Jamie are scum together, and the HB thing is something they discussed in daychat, but Ezio is forgetting he didn’t actually write it up in the game thread.)

What are you talking about? I did not "explicitly state I scumread HB for the same reasons as Jamie and others". The only person who posted about this specific oddity was Flum who noticed it and called it out immediately.
I questioned Jamiet because if he was scum reading HB for putting someone in both townreads and scumreads I was going to have a fit, as that's just poor play, not scum play.
I was searching for inauthentic/shitty reasons to vote HB because I agree that's a good place to look for scum.

You're saying you read my iso. You saw me explain my justification for the vote later. I think it was D2.

Sorry Ezio I now do see the difference between your and Jamie’s reads - I only grabbed one of the quotes and I realized it is Dip whose argument you seem to be against even though it is similar to why you scumread HB:

HB wagon is largely based off his weird readlists, which seem to be heavily reactionary.
Damo wagon is based on the way he reacted to some criticism or other of Jamiet's
lfischl wagon is based off whatever lfischl wagon is based off
Out of these three (and the 4th place, the Fluminator wagon, to which I say Fluminator), the HB wagon is just the strongest.

Either way Ham is really not doing anything good. His play so far is basically just scumreading everyone who scumreads him and then making up reasons for scumreading us.

Are read lists not supposed to be reactionary? What else are they supposed to be?

SnC is town this game.
D&W is probably also town this game.

I think Flum is probably town.
I think Ghug is probably town.

I think Damo is bad, but I can't tell if he's scummy.

I wish I had voted nokill day 1.

I wish you were actually active D1, and didnt end up voting for someone so critical in the end game; do you have an actual reason why you lurked D1, or were you just content watching us tear each other up

Work was busy so I wasn't going to be able to defend the nokill vote like I normally do.
I think HB was the best vote on d1. He made an argument that he was a wagon to save Damo, and didn't push Damo. Making an argument that someone is scum but not acting upon the belief that person is scum is in line with how I view scumplay: making posts for the sake of posts but not actually saying anything.
Sadly I suppose it also lines up with illogical play, which looks like what was the case here.

Overall it is a weird progression for you to vote HB, debate other scumreads of HB, and explain your vote on HB after the flip in a way that is similar to one you debated. No, these reasons are not exactly parroted, but it is strange that you seemed to undermine the wagon you were on and not explain your own vote until the following day and your logic is not REALLY so different from the logics you criticize.

You might just be a very different town player than I am! I always aim to explain give even a CRAPPY reason why I am scumming/voting someone. I also don’t tend to undermine other people who seem to suspect the same scum as me.

Did you scumread Dip and Jamie D1? Would that explain your progression there of undermining other people with the same scum read as you?

[aarodactyl]

Okay, Flum should not be a wagon.

If we find out Mafia has Battle Master then Flum is almost certainly scum.

So it's a waste to flip him when he can be caught in this way.

If we find out BM was Town then we can assess Flum from there.

There are some holes in this argument. If we go with this, worse case is Flum is scum and also BM and then we never flip him. It's possible that I can be convinced to delay the Flum wagon for a day (maybe two), but long term this is a bad approach.

[foodcoats]

What are you talking about? I did not "explicitly state I scumread HB for the same reasons as Jamie and others". The only person who posted about this specific oddity was Flum who noticed it and called it out immediately.
I questioned Jamiet because if he was scum reading HB for putting someone in both townreads and scumreads I was going to have a fit, as that's just poor play, not scum play.
I was searching for inauthentic/shitty reasons to vote HB because I agree that's a good place to look for scum.

You're saying you read my iso. You saw me explain my justification for the vote later. I think it was D2.

Correct sir, you explained your D1 vote on D2.
[/quote]

Yes. I want to confirm that your case on me boils down to:
You think there was a scum on some of the major wagons EoD1. (given that there were 18 people on the top 3 wagons at EoD, my guess is there's more than 1).
Ezio didn't post his reason for voting HB when he made the vote on D1, and therefore is likely scum for looking to coast onto a wagon.
Is that right?

Oh and on your full read post you complain that there are tons of players I've made "no mention of".
[/quote]

Yes, those are some reasons I scumread you. I’m not a cop.

[foodcoats]

I like the flum one as well ##vote flum, will flip to damo if there's a tie, but I don't like the brian wagon here

Lfischl not here anymore to question but here is how he votes Flum D1.
Honestly in my books for D1 not awful.

It isn’t awful but it also isn’t anything to feel good about, so I am just wondering what’s your point here?

Completeness.

[Jamiet99uk]

Your “counter” here is weak when you have to reference a D1 position from over ~200 pages ago and rebutting Monarch’s random opinion last phase…

Why is it weak?

It is a matter of record that I loudly pushed back against suggestions that Flavius was scum, on two occasions.

Facts are facts.

Based on squigs’ research above, I’d say “loudly” and “pushed back” require a different meaning then the ones I’m familiar with

Well, then. I can say no more about this. I townread Flav. As I see it, I indicated that I townread him. Very clearly we can all agree I did not scumread him. I'm genuinely annoyed he was killed as he seemed very towny.

If you think any of the above statement is a lie: Vote me.

[Ezio]

I feel like there is 1 major factor that has town divided right now: half of us think the battlemaster was scum, and therefore D2 analysis is invalid (or outright flipped) after the duel.
The other half of us think the battlemaster was town, and therefore VCA after duel is a the most valuable information.
It's a tough one to solve, because even if the battlemaster claims we can't know if they're town or not.

Don’t you think the lack of any claims at this point almost exclusively make the actions from scum at this point?

I didn't previously. I think it's generally bad to claim as town PR, as the evidence will come clear when they flip. Furthermore, since many people are scumreading the slot, *I* would have been reluctant to claim it.
I'm more on the fence now. I think if BM claimed, I don't think Flavius ever get miskilled d3.

At this point, I do think the battlemaster should claim, and we can get our reads from whomever claims.

I take it you *do* think BM is scum because they haven't claimed yet?

[Col7by]

My view on the game is it’s been very hard to decipher what has happened because of the battle master and other power roles used that haven’t given us as much info as normal kills would have. I think the flav vote is the best actual vote we can gather the most information from. Everyone seems to be collapsing in each other and nitpicking because of the lack of information we have gained. I think the key things to look at are balki supporters/dip haters D2 before battle master and the chaos during the flav vote

Ok. What did you learn from the Flav vote?

I need to do a deeper dive but I think that bona was for sure tunneling at least. Don’t love the last minute flipping from you, will and I think someone else but need to read the votes again. I think it was good to get another wagon in play but it got SO much traction SO quick that I think some scum had to have hopped on and to look there first. Some could be hiding on Fox but I think it’s start with the flav ones

[Foxcastle]

I would add Worcej to my list of scumreads. His game is a little too tidily town for me to think it's natural.

What is tidily?

I accept all criticism for anything post Friday morning, but will venomously OMGUS you for coming at me for the first phases

It all just looks too neat. I think townies are occasionally messy and make mistakes and sometimes throw out ill-advised ideas. And I recall you being pretty together in general (i.e., your meta), but this seems too together. Very middle of the herd, very "safe" votes that are going to be hard to pick apart or incorporate into a larger theory of the scum team. I also recall a game where we were down to the last few (maybe the endgame?) and you and Damo both looked so pristine, and IIRC, you were scum. Really, the best thing you've done, as far as I'm concerned, is to look opportunistic voting for me.

[Jamiet99uk]

I feel like there is 1 major factor that has town divided right now: half of us think the battlemaster was scum, and therefore D2 analysis is invalid (or outright flipped) after the duel.
The other half of us think the battlemaster was town, and therefore VCA after duel is a the most valuable information.
It's a tough one to solve, because even if the battlemaster claims we can't know if they're town or not.

You know, I just realized, even if Mafia had BM, they would still have to fake reactions to the whole thing. VCA might not be too helpful in that event, but certainly an ISO of the duel would.

Ive been wavering on sweet but he is lock town if the duel is mafia started

We know that isn't the case.

D&W triggered the duel. This is known fact.

[aarodactyl]

@Food: I'm reading up on the thread and I just saw your post here: https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=410353#p410353
(not quoting because it's super long)

I think you're misunderstanding my case on Flum. It has nothing to do with VCA from D3. It's all about the VCA from D1. To rehash my argument (which I've made several times in this thread so far), 30 minutes out from EOD1, the wagons were HB v Flum v Damo v Flav. At this point, I'm pretty sure that BM is scum since they would have claimed by now. Additionally, I have no idea why scum BM wouldn't use their power on a TvTvTvT D1. As a result, flav flipping town makes flum look incredibly scummy to me.