M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[aarodactyl]

Standard doc save parameters apply unless the role states otherwise
Assume the saved person learns and the doctor also learns.
Ect ect
Legal stuff

Oh I had no idea this was standard doc stuff. Ok I’ll add on I wasn’t saved then

Who are you?

I thought you were some sort of veteran player. But you don't know how standard Doctor works?

I have this ongoing bit where people (mainly bona and bunny) ask me to play mafia and I usually refuse. And then about once a year, I say yes to remind myself why I don’t play much.

On a more direct note, I’ve played like 3 or 4 games and I don’t think it came up. At least one game had a doctor (shout out to celaph) but I’m pretty sure he missed every save attempt. There was a cop that take that destroyed the scum team all by himself though.

[aarodactyl]

tadpole mass claim is stupid because everyone is going to say they didn't get it. perhaps someone would say they rejected it, but then what? that is not confirmable or useable information. cops and docs can produce results that are observable. tadpole can't. would be a waste of time

Nah there’s a reason for it. Please do the claim thing bunny asked for

there is nothing i can say that would add information to the town

Trust me on this. Just say if you were tp’ed last night or not. Bunny has a play here that I think you’re just missing

[Bonatogether]

Nah there’s a reason for it. Please do the claim thing bunny asked for

there is nothing i can say that would add information to the town

Trust me on this. Just say if you were tp’ed last night or not. Bunny has a play here that I think you’re just missing

i hate mechs plays

[Squigs44]

yes

I mean, I think that still boils down to a bad assumption from Flav. He clearly thinks that Fox has a spreadsheet and that his posts/reads were influenced by the spreadsheet. So to him, asking for a spreadsheet was akin to asking someone for reasons after they place a naked vote or some similar situation.
Fox has since said he has no spreadsheet, so Flavs obviously in the wrong here. But the question is what's the scum motivation for Flav to demand a spreadsheet vs what's the town motivation? I see you've said it's anti-town, which I understand, but what does scum!Flav gain by insisting for more info from Fox before giving a final read on Fox? And is it inconsistent for a town!Flav to act this way?

framing this a different way: what is the possible town motivation for attempting to shutting down any pushes on fox? i haven't played with flav before, so idk meta, but this just doesn't seem like baseline thinking townplay

I didn't see Flav shutting down pushes on Fox. He says he wants to see Fox's spreadsheet results before laying suspicions and @s Fox with a request.

Unless I missed some Fox wagon that Flav was targeting?

[Yoyoyozo]

Nah there’s a reason for it. Please do the claim thing bunny asked for

there is nothing i can say that would add information to the town

Trust me on this. Just say if you were tp’ed last night or not. Bunny has a play here that I think you’re just missing

I don't know if I've said this yet, but I wasn't tadpoled

[Bonatogether]

I mean, I think that still boils down to a bad assumption from Flav. He clearly thinks that Fox has a spreadsheet and that his posts/reads were influenced by the spreadsheet. So to him, asking for a spreadsheet was akin to asking someone for reasons after they place a naked vote or some similar situation.
Fox has since said he has no spreadsheet, so Flavs obviously in the wrong here. But the question is what's the scum motivation for Flav to demand a spreadsheet vs what's the town motivation? I see you've said it's anti-town, which I understand, but what does scum!Flav gain by insisting for more info from Fox before giving a final read on Fox? And is it inconsistent for a town!Flav to act this way?

framing this a different way: what is the possible town motivation for attempting to shutting down any pushes on fox? i haven't played with flav before, so idk meta, but this just doesn't seem like baseline thinking townplay

I didn't see Flav shutting down pushes on Fox. He says he wants to see Fox's spreadsheet results before laying suspicions and @s Fox with a request.

Unless I missed some Fox wagon that Flav was targeting?

dude he posted a big thing about how no possible read should justify an action until we see the damn spreadsheet, which apparently doesn't even exist.

It took Fox 33 minutes to make his meta case discrediting Balki.

Not impossible, but impressively speedy.

This supports the notion that Fox had it in his grudge folder. That is, this stuff from years ago was so seared in his mind he was able to find it relatively quickly, or he literally had some of this stuff saved or something.

Alternatively, it could be part of a coordinated plan with Balki.

Here I would post a detailed case, but not doing that this game probably.

I'm not impressed with Fox's day, and his love for voting Dip is

I think he is Mafia, but of course it's possible I'm wrong.

Then again, I'm 100% so far so maybe y'all will listen.

I said this before and I'll say it again I wont vote Fox until I see his spreadsheet. The longer he delays his spreadsheet giving the more I think he is a mafia. But we should still see the thing, EVERYONE should want to see it.
1. if you think he is mafia, then seeing this spreadsheet that is likely being workshopped by the mafia gives us keen insight into what their thinking
2. if you think he is town, then reading his reads are an important part of what would make the case for that
3. if you think he is NAI right now, then this is whats going to move you over the edge one way or the other
4. if you are fox then you talk about your spreadsheet so much, share us the results!

this says 'sure, we can talk - but only after some indefinite point in time'.

[aarodactyl]

Anyways. From this read up:

-bunny has town vibes
-flum thinking bunny has scum vibes makes me think flum has town vibes
-Jamie’s shitposting is 54% funnier with the chaqa pfp
-flav has town vibes. I’ve settled on their posting being an anti-town town rather than scum
-I really enjoy bona’s comments. That just aesthetics though and I think him pushing on flav so much feels scummy
-this “spreadsheets full of takes” feels 2012 election to me. Also I enjoy a good Poe as much as anyone else but the process of actually doing it always feels pretty arbitrary and I doubt it works
-still stand by fox being town now that Balki flipped scum
-I think it’s funny that someone (I think jamiet but I could be misremembering and I can’t be bothered to check) is upset people didn’t consider the possibility of a doc save. I think it’s ironic considering no one (including them) has considered that scum just passed to mess with us and distract with mechanics. (This take is just a joke tbh)
-I’m on the fence on if the “top 2 die” role was scum or town. It seems there were a lot of arguments for both. I’m hoping it’s scum and we happen to flip them and we get to remove the uncertainty (or we flip enough scum pr to rule out that as an option).

[aarodactyl]

Forgot to add a vote to that. ##vote flum. Seems weirdly attached to bunny who is very town-ish this game

[aarodactyl]

As a last point, flav’s case of “I won’t vote fox until fox shows me his spreadsheet” is the funniest thing I’ve read all game.

[Squigs44]

framing this a different way: what is the possible town motivation for attempting to shutting down any pushes on fox? i haven't played with flav before, so idk meta, but this just doesn't seem like baseline thinking townplay

I didn't see Flav shutting down pushes on Fox. He says he wants to see Fox's spreadsheet results before laying suspicions and @s Fox with a request.

Unless I missed some Fox wagon that Flav was targeting?

dude he posted a big thing about how no possible read should justify an action until we see the damn spreadsheet, which apparently doesn't even exist.

It took Fox 33 minutes to make his meta case discrediting Balki.

Not impossible, but impressively speedy.

This supports the notion that Fox had it in his grudge folder. That is, this stuff from years ago was so seared in his mind he was able to find it relatively quickly, or he literally had some of this stuff saved or something.

Alternatively, it could be part of a coordinated plan with Balki.

Here I would post a detailed case, but not doing that this game probably.

I'm not impressed with Fox's day, and his love for voting Dip is

I think he is Mafia, but of course it's possible I'm wrong.

Then again, I'm 100% so far so maybe y'all will listen.

I said this before and I'll say it again I wont vote Fox until I see his spreadsheet. The longer he delays his spreadsheet giving the more I think he is a mafia. But we should still see the thing, EVERYONE should want to see it.
1. if you think he is mafia, then seeing this spreadsheet that is likely being workshopped by the mafia gives us keen insight into what their thinking
2. if you think he is town, then reading his reads are an important part of what would make the case for that
3. if you think he is NAI right now, then this is whats going to move you over the edge one way or the other
4. if you are fox then you talk about your spreadsheet so much, share us the results!

this says 'sure, we can talk - but only after some indefinite point in time'.

He says he himself won't vote Fox until then. But like... what does scum Flav earn with this?

My point is that all I'm hearing from you is criticism of the play being anti-town, but nowhere do I hear why this benefits scum Flav OR why it can't be dumb town Flav

[Bonatogether]

I didn't see Flav shutting down pushes on Fox. He says he wants to see Fox's spreadsheet results before laying suspicions and @s Fox with a request.

Unless I missed some Fox wagon that Flav was targeting?

dude he posted a big thing about how no possible read should justify an action until we see the damn spreadsheet, which apparently doesn't even exist.

I said this before and I'll say it again I wont vote Fox until I see his spreadsheet. The longer he delays his spreadsheet giving the more I think he is a mafia. But we should still see the thing, EVERYONE should want to see it.
1. if you think he is mafia, then seeing this spreadsheet that is likely being workshopped by the mafia gives us keen insight into what their thinking
2. if you think he is town, then reading his reads are an important part of what would make the case for that
3. if you think he is NAI right now, then this is whats going to move you over the edge one way or the other
4. if you are fox then you talk about your spreadsheet so much, share us the results!

this says 'sure, we can talk - but only after some indefinite point in time'.

He says he himself won't vote Fox until then. But like... what does scum Flav earn with this?

My point is that all I'm hearing from you is criticism of the play being anti-town, but nowhere do I hear why this benefits scum Flav OR why it can't be dumb town Flav

i suppose if you are a strict literalist, that could be the reading you get from what i said, but like i said before - why would town do this? town being stupid of course is possible, but is not an excuse. to spell it out for you, the question 'why would scum do this?' is easily answered with: it kicks up dust around someone people have questions about in a way that prolongs their survival, and if fox is scum (as you repeatedly proposed d2), then that directly is helping a scumbuddy.

[ghug]

I mean… I really really don’t like the food voters…

We don't like you either if it helps.

[ghug]

I haven't thought very hard about the tadpole. But Balki is a very good player that they just lost. Maybe that's enough reason to recruit a strong veteran who might think about how town is already down an additional 2 losses (Damo and Dip), with a potential 3rd easy loss from the second vig shot.

What do you mean by additional?

Are you assuming that scum is the vig or that town vig will be wrong again?

[ghug]

##VOTE foosier coats, MD

I’m listening.

Are you, though?

[ghug]

##Vote Sweet

You've been flirting with evil too long. You're most likely tadpoled

Wild that your belief in:
Scum choosing to tadpole
Scum targeting S&C with it
S&C saying yes

Is higher than any other scum read you have

Indeed, Flum’s scum stock is rising.

Jesus Christ why are there fourteen new pages?

Time to create two more pages responding to everyone.

[ghug]

Basically, he said he saw Balki's death in the bot, and not Damo and Dip's, even though they're literally in the same place one line lower

You scumread Bunny because he didn’t see a webpage the same way you did?

Go to this post.
https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=408356#p408356

Bunny confirmed he saw the Balki death in this location. He also said he didn't know damo or dip died. It is basically impossible to see this area and not see the damo/dip deaths listed right next to Balki's death below.


Which makes it pretty clear Bunny is trying to pretend to be more clueless than he actually is.

Maybe we should kill Fluminator.

[ghug]

Flum sat on Ham all day D1 and pushed Balki into a 9-9 tie with 9 minutes to go on D2.

Rather less D1 shitposting than I would have thought! Says, "I was one of the leaders of the Hamilton wagon and was wrong rip," which is odd given that he never actually pushed Ham and 5 minutes before D1 EOD he said, "I'm probably willing to flashwagon lfischl but other than that I'm reasonably confident I'll be staying on Hamilton over Flavius, Damo, or Dip".

And then there's a bunch more that seems pretty innocuous.

##VOTE FLUM

I'm going to go see how D1 votes look assuming Flum is scum.

##VOTE Flum

[Squigs44]

dude he posted a big thing about how no possible read should justify an action until we see the damn spreadsheet, which apparently doesn't even exist.


this says 'sure, we can talk - but only after some indefinite point in time'.

He says he himself won't vote Fox until then. But like... what does scum Flav earn with this?

My point is that all I'm hearing from you is criticism of the play being anti-town, but nowhere do I hear why this benefits scum Flav OR why it can't be dumb town Flav

i suppose if you are a strict literalist, that could be the reading you get from what i said, but like i said before - why would town do this? town being stupid of course is possible, but is not an excuse. to spell it out for you, the question 'why would scum do this?' is easily answered with: it kicks up dust around someone people have questions about in a way that prolongs their survival, and if fox is scum (as you repeatedly proposed d2), then that directly is helping a scumbuddy.

So is your scumread of Flav dependant on Fox being scum, given that the scum reasons you listed were for prolonging or protecting Fox?

[ghug]

its worth noting that if the battlemaster is scum, the votes after D&Ws dual was engaged wont tell us anything. In that case they wouldve known that a vote for D&W is better to look more towny on the flip.

Would they have had much time to discuss this in day chat?

Benefit to scum: they know votes are meaningless and can behave accordingly.

Benefit to town: they clear up D&W for us without using a NK.

Benefit to scum: they get an extra townkilled guaranteed with the power.

But if that’s what they wanted they could have used it D1 to get two town then. Maybe?

The most confusing thing to me about this game is that a large contingent of people think that scum decided they wanted to give town the opportunity to kill two wagons day 2.

[Bonatogether]

He says he himself won't vote Fox until then. But like... what does scum Flav earn with this?

My point is that all I'm hearing from you is criticism of the play being anti-town, but nowhere do I hear why this benefits scum Flav OR why it can't be dumb town Flav

i suppose if you are a strict literalist, that could be the reading you get from what i said, but like i said before - why would town do this? town being stupid of course is possible, but is not an excuse. to spell it out for you, the question 'why would scum do this?' is easily answered with: it kicks up dust around someone people have questions about in a way that prolongs their survival, and if fox is scum (as you repeatedly proposed d2), then that directly is helping a scumbuddy.

So is your scumread of Flav dependant on Fox being scum, given that the scum reasons you listed were for prolonging or protecting Fox?

no. fox is a player with a large question mark, which town would benefit from having resolved, either through case for town or scum, or through flipping. flav is directly pushing against any attempt to resolve fox's alignment.

can i make it clearer? big letters, perhaps?