M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[dargorygel]

##GM FURTHER NOTE

Please remember to send notices to both GM and Co-GM if you desire to ensure your action/comment/food order is acted upon.

While netherbrain is VERY reliable and present... if something comes up the the unreliable and oft-absent CoGM has to end a phase, if said CoGM does not have all the info, your chosen action might be missed. And that will be on you.

That is all.

[Yoyoyozo]

##GM FURTHER NOTE

Please remember to send notices to both GM and Co-GM if you desire to ensure your action/comment/food order is acted upon.

While netherbrain is VERY reliable and present... if something comes up the the unreliable and oft-absent CoGM has to end a phase, if said CoGM does not have all the info, your chosen action might be missed. And that will be on you.

That is all.

I miss Kak. Can you bring him back?
Also I’d like to order 2 orders of oysters, extra sauce. Mac and cheese with nuggets for the kid.

[Squigs44]

I disagree with ghug on enough things that I don't think he's scum... probably...

Like what?

Most recently I don't understand your Dousing vote.

But you've purposefully corrected me on things like lfischl being a serial lurker, townslips being worthless, etc, with an attitude that doesn't match the agreeable ghug I remember

[aarodactyl]

Ok thanks for actually responding. You’re being open about not having much of a base to vote flum while at the same time saying you think the damo wagon has merit. However, you’re still sitting on the flum wagon. This seems super sus to me.

I like this post from Aaro. It feels like it’s seeking engagement in the right sort of way, while also making a reasonable point.

I left the Flum wagon like seconds after he made that post

It’s weird to be so confident about something we can check. According to the bot, you didn’t switch until 12 minutes before EOD.

[aarodactyl]

Going to sleep on whether Flav is defensive town or defensive scum. Going to sit on scum for now though. Will hopefully have plenty of time to play tomorrow but no promises. Looks like I’m free (meeting wise) for an hour and a half before eod but we’ll see if that changes

My 2 cents is that it’s frustrated town. Frustrated scum I think fox would just shake it off rather than double down on it.

Did you write the wrong player name here?

[Foxcastle]

Which would actually explain why Fox may have been annoyed at me telling people to ignore Balkis case and engage with the actual things Fox did if it was manufactured theater. That's some deep tinfoil right there

I was annoyed because I thought you were trying to draw a line between what Balki had done previously while still validating his "case" in this game (which I see as a pitch perfect echo of his standard line of attack, which has nothing to do with my actions in game and everything to do with my style of play).

[Foxcastle]

Proof Fox is Mafia:

"What I learned from last game is that your style of play just gets my attention in the wrong way and I need to learn other ways to read you. That's what I meant when I suggested we avoid last game's debacle."

"I mean, it's kind of the same, but I'm the one who has deliberately not scumread you. No offense, something about the way you type in these games makes me think you're scum in my very bones. Thus we had an enormous ongoing battle in the first game we played together. But then I reflected on the experience and learned, and so now I don't use that as the basis for my assessment of you."

How? I'm saying the same thing in both of these posts, which I think validates my claim pretty well that I am deliberately discounting my gut reaction to your posting. The point is that there is something about your tone, diction, style, how you argue, etc that rubs me the wrong way and makes me think you're scum when in reality it's NAI.

[Yoyoyozo]

Also, after last night’s… whatever you call that, I townread Foxcastle more than Balki (sorry buddy)

[Jamiet99uk]

@Jamiet have you ever played with Damo before?

Forgive me, I did not notice this question.

Yes I have.

[Foxcastle]

Proof Fox is Mafia:

"What I learned from last game is that your style of play just gets my attention in the wrong way and I need to learn other ways to read you. That's what I meant when I suggested we avoid last game's debacle."

"I mean, it's kind of the same, but I'm the one who has deliberately not scumread you. No offense, something about the way you type in these games makes me think you're scum in my very bones. Thus we had an enormous ongoing battle in the first game we played together. But then I reflected on the experience and learned, and so now I don't use that as the basis for my assessment of you."

Also Fox willfully pretending I am anything like I was in my first game.

I'm sure your tactics, strategies, and skills have evolved. They fundamental way you construct sentences and engage with others hasn't.

[foodcoats]

Lots of day left but these wagons are all over so I’ll push one of my reads into proper contention:

##VOTE damo

[Yoyoyozo]

Balki called FoxCastle low impact, and attributed that to scumminess. Do people think Fox isn't low impact, or do they think he isn't scummy for that? Or do you agree with Balki?

His votes, in particular.

(I literally have read half the game, plus a Fox ISO )

I don’t think Balki is bullying Fox persay but it reads to me that he wants to get rid of Fox because he’s had GREAT reads on people. It’s one of his quirks. Balki is great at convincing people (I’m not sure if this is confidential information but he is a lawyer)

The way I’ve read Fox this game is that he’s good at seeing the big picture, which spells trouble for someone trying to deceptively drive bandwagons. Of course, that entire argument could be contrived and they’re both mafia, and if they’re both mafia, Balki could be saccing Fox for town points. Those are the vibes I getting so far.

[Squigs44]

If you write some code, and it gives the same output regardless of the data you feed it, do you say "we really need to consider that last batch of data on its own," or do you start to wonder if the program is broken?

You pointed to the bad code and so I asked people to ignore the code and look at the data itself to draw their own conclusions. Are you advocating we don't give reads on you because Balkis case would contaminate those reads or something?

OK squigs: how do you feel about their abilities to argue terribly like this? Does Balki keep up this weird push as town? As scum? Based on Fox's claims that he wouldn't join at all until Balki dropped, does that make this frustration more towny? more scummy? more NAI?

@Vecna: same questions. You were talking about Balki before he even showed up and have disappeared since. Did he sub in for you?

I only really remember one game with Balki, where he was scum and did some fake theater stuff. I think the Balki/Fox scum team theory is too much tin foil to follow for now, but I also wouldn't rule out either of them individually being scum.

I once townread Fox because he put a lot of work into making a spreadsheet and I thought there was no way scum would do that, and yet Fox was scum. So I think scum Fox is very capable of putting that case together and being frustrated. I also think the frustration could be real even if Fox is scum. Like it's arguably more annoying if you get caught as scum due to a railroading player instead of getting caught doing something scummy.

Tl;dr - I don't think the Balki/Fox dramatics give us the best info on their alignments, and we should consider the rest of their games collectively. Fox is probably null for me now. As Balki pointed out, he's kinda lived on the fringes and has played pretty standard. Balki I'm leaning slight scum recently, mostly based on feel.

Either way I think there are better options today.
Lfischl is both lurking and giving contradictory posts.
I voted Jamie early for a reason, and recently they have latched onto this Damo tunnel in a weird way. I would have expected Jamie to give more comprehensive thoughts at this point.
I feel less good about a damo vote because I think it's a 50/50 on his alignment and if we wagon him again and he flips town we have very little information (basically spread the wagons).
I don't hate Ezio or Flum wagons either.

[Foxcastle]

1) Respect the dead. Kak wanted D&W.
2) It kinda doesn't. But D&W's hard on for kak into claiming he knew he was town all along on D2 is a textbook distance attempt, esp. when I've gone full rabid dog and there was a call for him.
3) D&W played no small part in HB flipping instead of damo, then immediately hedged the defense post flip.
4) Respect the dead.

Can you elaborate on what you mean at point 2 here? What is “textbook distancing” to you?

See the quote wall. Pushed on kak almost every moment of D1 that wasn't a HB push. Then in the opening post of D2 tried to play it off that they were town on kak.

He pushed on Kak in the first few hours, then disappeared until about 7 hours before EOD. Then he said he thought Kak's line of inquiry on who would take a tadpole was scummy, but voted Ham because he thought Ham tried to fake a townslip, then joined the Flav wagon without a reason, before retreating back to Ham because the Flav wagon wasn't going anywhere...

I am not actually bothered about him shifting his view Kak after Kak flipped, I think that's a thing that happens when people suddenly get access to 20/20 hindsight.

To me, Dip's Flav vote is pretty towny, I think scum would have wanted to have a reason so they weren't open to questioning later. If Damo is scum, I think it's even more likely that Dip is town.

[foodcoats]

You pointed to the bad code and so I asked people to ignore the code and look at the data itself to draw their own conclusions. Are you advocating we don't give reads on you because Balkis case would contaminate those reads or something?

OK squigs: how do you feel about their abilities to argue terribly like this? Does Balki keep up this weird push as town? As scum? Based on Fox's claims that he wouldn't join at all until Balki dropped, does that make this frustration more towny? more scummy? more NAI?

@Vecna: same questions. You were talking about Balki before he even showed up and have disappeared since. Did he sub in for you?

I only really remember one game with Balki, where he was scum and did some fake theater stuff. I think the Balki/Fox scum team theory is too much tin foil to follow for now, but I also wouldn't rule out either of them individually being scum.

I once townread Fox because he put a lot of work into making a spreadsheet and I thought there was no way scum would do that, and yet Fox was scum. So I think scum Fox is very capable of putting that case together and being frustrated. I also think the frustration could be real even if Fox is scum. Like it's arguably more annoying if you get caught as scum due to a railroading player instead of getting caught doing something scummy.

Tl;dr - I don't think the Balki/Fox dramatics give us the best info on their alignments, and we should consider the rest of their games collectively. Fox is probably null for me now. As Balki pointed out, he's kinda lived on the fringes and has played pretty standard. Balki I'm leaning slight scum recently, mostly based on feel.

Either way I think there are better options today.
Lfischl is both lurking and giving contradictory posts.
I voted Jamie early for a reason, and recently they have latched onto this Damo tunnel in a weird way. I would have expected Jamie to give more comprehensive thoughts at this point.
I feel less good about a damo vote because I think it's a 50/50 on his alignment and if we wagon him again and he flips town we have very little information (basically spread the wagons).
I don't hate Ezio or Flum wagons either.

I agree with someone important in here which is that acting solvy is not town indicative. Personally I am a better “solver” as scum. Lol

[Yoyoyozo]

You pointed to the bad code and so I asked people to ignore the code and look at the data itself to draw their own conclusions. Are you advocating we don't give reads on you because Balkis case would contaminate those reads or something?

OK squigs: how do you feel about their abilities to argue terribly like this? Does Balki keep up this weird push as town? As scum? Based on Fox's claims that he wouldn't join at all until Balki dropped, does that make this frustration more towny? more scummy? more NAI?

@Vecna: same questions. You were talking about Balki before he even showed up and have disappeared since. Did he sub in for you?

I only really remember one game with Balki, where he was scum and did some fake theater stuff. I think the Balki/Fox scum team theory is too much tin foil to follow for now, but I also wouldn't rule out either of them individually being scum.

I once townread Fox because he put a lot of work into making a spreadsheet and I thought there was no way scum would do that, and yet Fox was scum. So I think scum Fox is very capable of putting that case together and being frustrated. I also think the frustration could be real even if Fox is scum. Like it's arguably more annoying if you get caught as scum due to a railroading player instead of getting caught doing something scummy.

Tl;dr - I don't think the Balki/Fox dramatics give us the best info on their alignments, and we should consider the rest of their games collectively. Fox is probably null for me now. As Balki pointed out, he's kinda lived on the fringes and has played pretty standard. Balki I'm leaning slight scum recently, mostly based on feel.

Either way I think there are better options today.
Lfischl is both lurking and giving contradictory posts.
I voted Jamie early for a reason, and recently they have latched onto this Damo tunnel in a weird way. I would have expected Jamie to give more comprehensive thoughts at this point.
I feel less good about a damo vote because I think it's a 50/50 on his alignment and if we wagon him again and he flips town we have very little information (basically spread the wagons).
I don't hate Ezio or Flum wagons either.

I’m inclined to agree, but I’ve played diplomacy with Balki. He’s galaxy brained like that. I’m watching you, Balki but also love you <3

[worcej]

While Balki is just one vote on me, I'm taking my time to lay this out because Balki has a long history of railroading me. He scumreads me almost every time, he has never actually townread me, and he has been wrong every fucking time except one. So it's disappointing to see that he has learned nothing and is back for yet another round of "scumread Fox no matter what."

NB: I've snipped several quotes from previous games to keep this focused.

M34 - Balki is sure I'm scum (hooker, to be specific). I survive to the end of game to win as town: https://mafia.peterlund.se/m34/game_status.html





mM36 - Balki reads me as town conditional on another player's alignment.



See the whole thing here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?user=Balki*&word=Fox*&g=36

M1006 - Balki scumreads me. And I'm scum! But it's the exact same thing he says about me every time.



M46 Balki is scum, and he scum reads me. I flip town. But it's the same shit.



M54 Balki scum reads me. I flip town.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?user=Balki*&word=Fox*&g=54

BALKI AND I HAVE PLAYED 5 GAMES TOGETHER. HE HAS NEVER TOWN READ ME. HE HAS CORRECTLY SCUMREAD ME ONE TIME.

HE HAS CONSISTENTLY USED THE SAME ARGUMENTS AGAINST ME THAT HE'S USING HERE. AND HE HAS BEEN WRONG EVERY TIME EXCEPT ONCE.

I townlean you.

That being said, there are two wrong things with this.

1. This is old history.
2. At best it shows Balki has a tunnel on you, it tells us nothing of his alignment this game.

1. This is the complete history.
2. It shows you that his read on me can't be taken seriously, and if you want to properly read me, you should know that.

This exchange brings back memories of Scum!Fox doing something similar to me and I OMGUS’ed him into being flipped lol…

[Yoyoyozo]

Okay back to work I go! Seriously this time so it’ll be a few hours before I’m back. If you guys see me online, yell at me lol.

[worcej]

In case my point about Balki v Fox wasn't clear:

I don't care much that Balki has a history of tunneling Fox. I care more about if Balkis case in this game is credible. People are reacting to Fox's defense but not saying much about Balkis original case which worries me

Squigs is town.

[Foxcastle]

@Foxcastle, what would help me the most would be if you would address each of your three votes and explain why you made them. It would also help if you address my suspicion that you have spent the game focused on low hanging fruit.

Well before EOD, this was a policy vote because Demon hadn't shown up.

But for real, ##VOTE DemonRHK. Lurking is shirking.

About 5 hours before EOD, the wagons were:
dam 6
Ham 4
lfi 3
Jam 2
And a bunch of other one-vote wagons (maybe another 2 vote after Jamie, I'm cribbing from the bot).

Of those wagons, lfischl was the one I was most null on, so voted for him to start getting some competitive wagons, because that leads to more useful data later.

It's time to start consolidating wagons.

##vote lfischl

I was on mobile for EOD. I did not think it was Damo, and I didn't have a good sense of Ham, so I voted for the null over my townread.

I don’t think it’s damo.

##vote ham

As for you wanting me to be DARING! BOLD! BRASH! and whatever else, I don't care, that's not how I play day 1, that's basically never how I play.

Can you explain the fischl wagon and why you chose to consolidate on him specifically? I never understood this wagon and still dont what did I miss?

Lfischl is consistently lurky, which is a point against him, but mostly he was the best option to push another wagon into contention to see what happened. I think days with more activity and more wagons provide more information that a head-to-head.