M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[Foxcastle]

He honestly left out the most important piece of that - what was Balki’s role when he did it. If he was scum even two of the times fox is citing, that gives him a 1/3 success rate at railroading which is honestly higher than most people can claim.

I noted the one time Balki was scum.

My mistake. 25% accuracy is probably about the same as just randomly guessing so I can see the frustration.

Sure, if you play 4 games with someone, and never town read them, then yes, the accuracy is equal to the proportion of the time they were actually scum.

[Squigs44]

In case my point about Balki v Fox wasn't clear:

I don't care much that Balki has a history of tunneling Fox. I care more about if Balkis case in this game is credible. People are reacting to Fox's defense but not saying much about Balkis original case which worries me

I encourage you go read the previous games. I provided links for several searches of Balki's posts where he mentions me. It is strikingly similar language about appearing to be engaged, trying without trying, etc. He has made very similar arguments against me in previous games and been wrong.

I mean I literally said I'm not convinced by Balki. I'm just trying to get all the people going "ooh Fox made a cool case" to actually give an opinion on the content of Balkis case instead of just glossing over it because you put in some work digging up quotes. I want them to clear you because they believe you've done stuff this game, not because Balki was wrong in previous games. Or maybe they revisit the case and find something to follow up on

[Bonatogether]

Huh so Ezio showed up and whined and left.

We have to kill that slot because it will do nothing and we can’t have that later.

##VOTE Ezio

you really hate ezio huh

[Foxcastle]

In case my point about Balki v Fox wasn't clear:

I don't care much that Balki has a history of tunneling Fox. I care more about if Balkis case in this game is credible. People are reacting to Fox's defense but not saying much about Balkis original case which worries me

I encourage you go read the previous games. I provided links for several searches of Balki's posts where he mentions me. It is strikingly similar language about appearing to be engaged, trying without trying, etc. He has made very similar arguments against me in previous games and been wrong.

I mean I literally said I'm not convinced by Balki. I'm just trying to get all the people going "ooh Fox made a cool case" to actually give an opinion on the content of Balkis case instead of just glossing over it because you put in some work digging up quotes. I want them to clear you because they believe you've done stuff this game, not because Balki was wrong in previous games. Or maybe they revisit the case and find something to follow up on

If you write some code, and it gives the same output regardless of the data you feed it, do you say "we really need to consider that last batch of data on its own," or do you start to wonder if the program is broken?

[Dousing]

If you read what I wrote, I said that you were acting weird 30-60 minutes before eod, not that you were doing it up until eod (which tbh was kind of a blur when I had to reread several hours of posts when I was out of meetings yesterday). And honestly, all I’ve been saying is that I scumlean you.

@dousing this post is an example of what I meant about it feeling like their reactions are performative. But I’ve also never played with them and they wouldn’t be the last person to reaction strongly when accused of being even a bit scummy.

Hm, interesting.

Sorry I wish I could say more but it's late over in Quebec and my brain feels too tired to make an insightful statement (+ I've already ballooned the page count of this thread)

I'll try to have something interesting to say tmr.

[FlaviusAetius]

Huh so Ezio showed up and whined and left.

We have to kill that slot because it will do nothing and we can’t have that later.

##VOTE Ezio

I dont understand why we HAVE to kill a lurker TODAY. Its like taking a shot in the dark, we just need to do a better job pressuring them to talk

[Dousing]

@Dousing
D&W is also a person who throws his vote around so hi calling Ghug a powerwolf 4 seperate times and not actually voting for him is crazy, I still think Ghug tells us a lot more about the team if Ghug flips, then Dip is next and if Dip flips then Flum is next

tbh, I slightly scumread Ghug so D&W's shading of Ghug might be a little warrented. Either way I see your point about D&W.

Don't know why you @'ed me, but I love the attention lol

[Bonatogether]

While Balki is just one vote on me, I'm taking my time to lay this out because Balki has a long history of railroading me. He scumreads me almost every time, he has never actually townread me, and he has been wrong every fucking time except one. So it's disappointing to see that he has learned nothing and is back for yet another round of "scumread Fox no matter what."

NB: I've snipped several quotes from previous games to keep this focused.

M34 - Balki is sure I'm scum (hooker, to be specific). I survive to the end of game to win as town: https://mafia.peterlund.se/m34/game_status.html

Foxy is Hooker. He is. I can feel it in my bones.

I’d order the lynch priority like this: Foxy, Flum, Vashta, rdrivera. Obviously cop scans can change that.

mM36 - Balki reads me as town conditional on another player's alignment.

I wouldn't lynch Foxcastle today, because the read is entirely derivative of RagingIke's alignment. But if it turns out that RagingIke is Town, then Flxcastle is probably scum.

See the whole thing here: http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?user=Balki*&word=Fox*&g=36

M1006 - Balki scumreads me. And I'm scum! But it's the exact same thing he says about me every time.

I mean...what did he even just say? Like, nothing. Nothing!

But he wrote a whole bunch of words, and he wrote about people who voted for other people so...so what?

EFFORT TO BLEND!

More Nothingness! Empty Void!

Kind of like a big, long, empty FOXHOLE!

Foxcastle is not content to be seen as doing nothing. He is putting in effort to be seen as doing something that looks vaguely like scum hunting. He's just not doing a great job at manufacturing a real process.

M46 Balki is scum, and he scum reads me. I flip town. But it's the same shit.

##vote Foxcastle

That's where my head is right now. Though, I am not at all confident. And I have not ISOed Fox, and I need to do that. But here are the impressions in my mind:

Fox has been sitting back, cracking jokes all the time, super chill. He has sprinkled in comments. He's been around. But he has not been taking stands. Most of his reads have been about gathering information or enforcing policies. He has not taken a stand on anything likely to get pushback. He has not made any scumread on an experienced player who would put him in the spotlight.

He's playing to avoid confrontation.

I made a similar read on him for similar reasons the last time we played together, and I was right at that time. I feel like he may be scum again here.

M54 Balki scum reads me. I flip town.

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?user=Balki*&word=Fox*&g=54

BALKI AND I HAVE PLAYED 5 GAMES TOGETHER. HE HAS NEVER TOWN READ ME. HE HAS CORRECTLY SCUMREAD ME ONE TIME.

HE HAS CONSISTENTLY USED THE SAME ARGUMENTS AGAINST ME THAT HE'S USING HERE. AND HE HAS BEEN WRONG EVERY TIME EXCEPT ONCE.

a broken clock is right twice a day, and it sure seems here he's up due

[Bonatogether]

This is a "I read and upvote the GM's posts" slip.

You're really bad at reading.

Yes...and? What does this mean to you?

GM NOTE

A question was raised about how Circle of the Moon would work with there being a God Thread.

So players are aware, this game features an unspoiled environment upon death, regardless of whether there was a circle of the moon or knowledge role in play. This is mostly to spawn unique dialogue which I feel is often tainted by people spectating with an answer sheet.

Reads to me like "no God Thread". Maybe some "unspoiled environment" but no "God Thread".

But if there's Circle of the Moon, then I doubt he'd allow all the ghosts to talk to the one that's sent back...

does a town bungo spend him time arguing over interpretations of rules that cannot possibly matter to any living player? unfortunately, probably yes.

[FlaviusAetius]

Sweet is confusing me, they seem like their throwing. Admittedly, they said they'd do as much in the signup thread. Either way it's kinda tainting their arguments in an undue negative light.

For example, I really like what they said about Bunny (http://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=406327#p406327) but then they start voting for a dead Kak???

To use a terrible analogy: Sweet is kinda like the Kanye West of this game thread.

##VOTE Dousing

Why are you vote flipping so much you voted dousing, foxcastle, then back to dousing all with zero explanation

[Bonatogether]

1) if you were vig, I highly doubt you’d be soft claim like this. So this question is kind of moot
2) I don’t know the meta but it seems bad to vig shot here entirely
3) Flavius gives me weird vibes but I’ve never played with them before. Just generally I felt like they’ve had a lot of exaggerated reactions to things.

I didn't softclaim it. Yoyo told me to shoot Ezio. I'm just running with it.

Hmm...

And who (presumably besides you) would you rather I not shoot?

Joke answer: bona because he talked me into this game and if I have to read this much gameplay, he should have to as well

Real answer: problem Jamiet, I get town vibes from him and he usually is good at keeping people solving later in the game

aaro if i die i won't read anything

[Squigs44]

I encourage you go read the previous games. I provided links for several searches of Balki's posts where he mentions me. It is strikingly similar language about appearing to be engaged, trying without trying, etc. He has made very similar arguments against me in previous games and been wrong.

I mean I literally said I'm not convinced by Balki. I'm just trying to get all the people going "ooh Fox made a cool case" to actually give an opinion on the content of Balkis case instead of just glossing over it because you put in some work digging up quotes. I want them to clear you because they believe you've done stuff this game, not because Balki was wrong in previous games. Or maybe they revisit the case and find something to follow up on

If you write some code, and it gives the same output regardless of the data you feed it, do you say "we really need to consider that last batch of data on its own," or do you start to wonder if the program is broken?

You pointed to the bad code and so I asked people to ignore the code and look at the data itself to draw their own conclusions. Are you advocating we don't give reads on you because Balkis case would contaminate those reads or something?

[Dousing]

As much as I'd want to see Jamie's reaction to me voting him I'm gonna change my vote seeing as EoD will be rather near by the time I wake up.

##vote Ghug

1. It's a reaction to his vote on me
2. I want to bring more attention to Ghug's scumminess.

[aarodactyl]

You're really bad at reading.

Yes...and? What does this mean to you?

GM NOTE

A question was raised about how Circle of the Moon would work with there being a God Thread.

So players are aware, this game features an unspoiled environment upon death, regardless of whether there was a circle of the moon or knowledge role in play. This is mostly to spawn unique dialogue which I feel is often tainted by people spectating with an answer sheet.

Reads to me like "no God Thread". Maybe some "unspoiled environment" but no "God Thread".

But if there's Circle of the Moon, then I doubt he'd allow all the ghosts to talk to the one that's sent back...

does a town bungo spend him time arguing over interpretations of rules that cannot possibly matter to any living player? unfortunately, probably yes.

In the nicest way possible, I think that’s at least half of why he signs up to play mafia.

[Bonatogether]

If he's right about your meta, then you taking a big role D1 makes you an obv mafia. Kak says your meta as a town is to be mysterious and nebluous whereas here you were insistent you were a town and acting as one of the biggest solvers there ever was with Vecna. This makes me think you were a townie, except for that weird wanna buddy up to solve the game, I can look past that, but according to Kak that is not you. Also he pointed out something I completely missed;
"Ghug's intend to 'try not to solve until day 4' is just atrocious and I doubt town ghug would ever feel that way."

So either your a big solver and thats unlike your town meta
Or you are a solver, and you all of a sudden dont want to solve until day 4

Either way super sus, and Im surprised no one else is paying attention to anything Kak is saying. As I explained, Im not sure Kak is right about Dip or Flum, but everything he pointed out would all line right on you guys as a team, if you were all mafia.

Well, first off, I think you took mysterious to mean quiet, which is not the case. I'm always loud. Kak is right that I work harder to be townread when I'm scum, but it's more that I say shit when I'm town that's not designed to look good.

Beyond that, though this isn't logically coherent.

For one, I never said I wanted to solve the game with Vecna. For two, you're acknowledging yourself that I said something that you and Kak both found scummy, which runs against the idea that I'm playing to be townread. For three, the entire basis of his own argument is that I'm openly insisting I'm town, which isn't something that regularly garners townreads.

It feels like you're just trying to jump on a shitty argument that you can wash your hands of by blaming Kak when you're wrong. I do not get the sense that you're applying serious consideration here.

What on earth are you talking about?
"I say stuff not designed to look good" when you are TOWN!?! That defeats the whole purpose of being a townie and is anti-town at best, you are just confusing everyone and inviting townies to suspect you and then be suspected for suspecting you over totally reasonable stuff. No what Kak meant was that you tried to stay NAI as a townie...not that you ACTIVELY tried to do stuff that was anti-town.

You and Vecna were being buddy buddy about solving the game, and I put a stop to that real quick by saying no you guys should try to solve the game independently, that would tell us a lot more than some random team up.

You saying this scummy thing is exactly the contradiction I put forward that you did
"So either your a big solver and thats unlike your town meta
Or you are a solver, and you all of a sudden dont want to solve until day 4"

Either way doesn't look good. His entire basis for town is threefolded, one you fit well into the team, and two you are going against your meta when you are a townie, and three(one that Im putting together) you are acting like a big solver, but then all of a sudden dont want to solve the game, that you havent answered for. I dont like that no one else here is paying attention to what Kak is saying but to the @Dip voters;

Ghug and Flum tell us a lot more about Kak's team than Dip does.

radar check: how many games have you played

[Squigs44]

Huh so Ezio showed up and whined and left.

We have to kill that slot because it will do nothing and we can’t have that later.

##VOTE Ezio

I dont understand why we HAVE to kill a lurker TODAY. Its like taking a shot in the dark, we just need to do a better job pressuring them to talk

What do we gain by leaving a lurker alive?
What do we gain by leaving an active player alive?

[aarodactyl]

I didn't softclaim it. Yoyo told me to shoot Ezio. I'm just running with it.

Hmm...

And who (presumably besides you) would you rather I not shoot?

Joke answer: bona because he talked me into this game and if I have to read this much gameplay, he should have to as well

Real answer: problem Jamiet, I get town vibes from him and he usually is good at keeping people solving later in the game

aaro if i die i won't read anything

I know. That’s why I said I didn’t want him to shoot you.

[Dousing]

Also, thinking about it, I think aaro is right to consider Foxcastle's votes

@Aaro I would like to state for the record that I previously *explicitly* said I'm not town-reading Foxcastle.

[Foxcastle]

@Foxcastle, what would help me the most would be if you would address each of your three votes and explain why you made them. It would also help if you address my suspicion that you have spent the game focused on low hanging fruit.

Well before EOD, this was a policy vote because Demon hadn't shown up.

But for real, ##VOTE DemonRHK. Lurking is shirking.

About 5 hours before EOD, the wagons were:
dam 6
Ham 4
lfi 3
Jam 2
And a bunch of other one-vote wagons (maybe another 2 vote after Jamie, I'm cribbing from the bot).

Of those wagons, lfischl was the one I was most null on, so voted for him to start getting some competitive wagons, because that leads to more useful data later.

It's time to start consolidating wagons.

##vote lfischl

I was on mobile for EOD. I did not think it was Damo, and I didn't have a good sense of Ham, so I voted for the null over my townread.

I don’t think it’s damo.

##vote ham

As for you wanting me to be DARING! BOLD! BRASH! and whatever else, I don't care, that's not how I play day 1, that's basically never how I play.

[Dousing]

Yes...and? What does this mean to you?



Reads to me like "no God Thread". Maybe some "unspoiled environment" but no "God Thread".

But if there's Circle of the Moon, then I doubt he'd allow all the ghosts to talk to the one that's sent back...

does a town bungo spend him time arguing over interpretations of rules that cannot possibly matter to any living player? unfortunately, probably yes.

In the nicest way possible, I think that’s at least half of why he signs up to play mafia.

Unpopular opinion, I like how Bunny plays mafia. It's like they *GASP* are enjoying the game instead of whining.