Mafia 86: Accidents Happen... - Game Thread

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm good with any of these wagons other than Chaqa. Sweet is probably my next least favorite at this point. I townread Bozo, brain, and Chaqa.

The primary motivation of my food vote was to see what would happen. The reads list pinged me a little but it was definitely not my strongest scumread at that point. The reaction, though, is really irking me.

Ghug, can you explain the different stances? This is you 1h before eod

But after the flip you said you shouldve followed your gut.

Did you really have a gut feeling of sweet being scum, but then you publically announce you dislike his wagon badly?

Yes, I announced the gut read of sweet and it was talked about a lot. I took my foot off the gas a little bit because nothing had corroborated that one moment and bozo pointed out that I'd only actually caught him that way once, but you can also see I still liked the wagon, just less than some others.

The quoted post implies you liked the Bunny wagon more than the Sweet wagon (because you didn't call out a dislike for the Bunny wagon, and your vote was on it for a time).

Why didn't you just stay on Bunny?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I will assume Jamie reads Frogster as NULL until further notice. Ghug, can you do a reads list now?

[Jamiet99uk]

I will assume Jamie reads Frogster as NULL until further notice. Ghug, can you do a reads list now?

Yeah my ??? indicates no firm opinion, null, but I also feel strongly that I SHOULD have an opinion so I want to review him as a priority.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Not everyone is going to give me a reads list before EON, so Im going to abandon that idea. If you want to write a list, please do tho.

[Vecna]

So here are the reads as requested by J-Willy:

BunnyGo: ODDLY NULL: I say “oddly” because clearly Bunny has been active and posted quite a lot, yet has made relatively little impression on me. Obviously for part of D1 he was doing a silly “to the God Thread” act, which tended to make me look at his posts less seriously, and which therefore may have contributed to my current nullread. I will re-read him when time allows.
Just A Guy Whose Name is William: TOWN: Super active, which I’m generally in favour of, and a lot of that activity is probing people, trying to get people to respond and comment but not in an aggressive way. Probably my strongest townread right now.

BrainDaddy: TOWN LEAN: Brainbomb seems quite relaxed apart from the rather silly spat with Chaqa early on. Clearly he has been spending time with his baby and at work, but has still managed to be present quite a lot. Overall he is giving me town vibes; it’s a meta read but that’s all I’ve got. One thing that stands out is that he sat with a useless vote on Frogster at EoD, threatened to vote for Bunny, but didn’t. Not sure what to make of that.

Jamiet99uk: TOWN (obv)

Foodcoats: TOWN LEAN: Seems earnest and sincere, trying to solve.

Vecna: NULL: Not sure yet. I always find Vecna quite hard to read and nothing has yet caused me to form a strong opinion.

Ghug: SCUM LEAN: It seems silly to scumlean him for this, and yet, I am slightly unsettled by the fact that he basically avoided putting any pressure on me at all in D1, which is very unusual for Ghug. While I debated the nuance of the point, I actually find myself agreeing with BunnyGo that it’s suspicious that Ghug said he didn’t like the Sweet wagon, but then jumped on it at the last minute.

Damo666:NULL: As usual not super involved on D1. Unusually posted a reads list on D1 which I don’t think he usually does. Was a key Sweetandcool voter at the crucial time.

Hamilton Brian: NULL: Hamilton Brian has been scum so often in the last couple of years that I am struggling to remember if he is different when he is town.

Chaqa: TOWN LEAN: I was initially getting strong town vibes from Chaqa. His annoyance at Brainbomb early in D1 seemed genuine. However, on a quick re-read, his push on Damo bothers me, for reasons that I will expand on in due course. So he has gone from strong town to a mere townlean.

Bozotheclown: SCUM LEAN: Bozo is being very weird as previously discussed.

Heart/Dargorygel: NULL: I was leaning town very slightly on Heart but Monty Hall has now opened a door and revealed Dargorygel so I am going to wait until he has posted some more.

Frogsterking: ??? – I had Frog as potential scum but Vecna (and others?) appear to be suggesting I’m some kind of moron for having that opinion, I assume because he voted for Sweetandcool. I am not sure I saw him making a clear argument as to why he scumread Sweet. I will re-read him.

You managed to townread me within 2 minutes of me posting and attacking you, yet now im suddenly null?

[Jamiet99uk]

You managed to townread me within 2 minutes of me posting and attacking you, yet now im suddenly null?

That is correct. I now have more data, yet fewer conclusions. Sometimes it do be that way.

[ghug]

If damo were scum, why sheep me twice when he'd already given the idea that I was scum? Why not just push me?

Do you think scum!damo didn't believe the non-voters would go for me?

You'd said you would.

Vecna and Chaqa had indicated they wouldn't.

ghug had given the IMPRESSION he wouldn't, but then he did!

So maybe damo had a good sense of the room?

I'd given the impression I wouldn't?

You were my preferred target when I voted for food, but I thought giving you a commanding lead would be less interesting.

Huh. Fooled me by voting everyone else. And saying things like:

That was M84, but in M83, Just was voting for sweetandcool when sweetandcool was shot D1, and ghug had also suspected sweetandcool. However, Just and ghug seem rather confident in their ability to identify sweetandcool as mafia based on D1 of M83, and that have yet to respond to my request to identify the criteria they are using to identify scum sweetandcool.

I think that slightly undersells my suspicion of sweet in that game. I came out of his shooting looking so good that his teammate shot me later in the day.

But anyway, it's really just vibes. He said something that felt slimy and fake, which is the same thing he did in M83 and the same thing I probably overindexed on when I bussed him in M84. I responded to the post that pinged me this game, though he hasn't done much of anything since.

And

In reviewing the isos I certainly have too many scumleans but I also feel quite
Snip
Vecna - Not enough material here yet. I thought Vecna was anchor posting but they have since returned and made more posts, so for now, null.

I think food is scum.

And

Sorry I've been gone for a while, had an uncharacteristically busy day yesterday. Managed to mostly keep on top of reading but wasn't able to react at all. I am going to spend my morning tea time looking over the game and coming up with some salient posts.

A quick unrefined reaction:

The scumreading of me came out of nowhere and is stupid and bizarre.

ghug has decided he knows my scumvibe after essentially one D1 success. Will is deluding himself yet again that his usual sheeping worked out, rather than any real success at reading me. brainbomb is scum reading me because I wasn't previously scumread this game, which he was right was uncharacteristic.

I wasn't using my normal technique this game, but it looks like there is a decent chance one of the three is Mafia and has decided I'm a soft target for D1 and targeted me randomly.

Why was that reaction impossible yesterday when you were reading?

In fact…within the last 19 hours of the day (until voting me) the only posts you directly interacted with me or mentioned me was regarding Jamie appearing to edit his post, and disagreeing with chaqa that I’d not fake a townslip. (And I guess the modkill joke)


Within the last 12 hours of the day you mostly said how much you sussed food and worried anout a couple others (but not sweet).

So yeah…I guess someone counting votes would have seen you say you liked any wagon available except chaqa and sweet. I was still putting you in the sussing sweet camp from an hour earlier in the day. I like how you used the word slimy or sliminess when we discussing sweets alignment and only when discussing sweets alignment.

Here I said I liked the sweet wagon, I just liked it less than the others:

I'm good with any of these wagons other than Chaqa. Sweet is probably my next least favorite at this point. I townread Bozo, brain, and Chaqa.

The primary motivation of my food vote was to see what would happen. The reads list pinged me a little but it was definitely not my strongest scumread at that point. The reaction, though, is really irking me.

I explained in the same post coming up on EoD that I'd overblown my initial food suspicion but it had grown with his reaction. I voiced my suspicion for you when I accused you of intentionally trying to antagonize me and solidified it in my very detailed read list:

I like to ask new players who seem smart that question. Most mafia players are terrible at diplomacy and have large egos, so it garners interesting responses. Discussion of last game reminded me that I hadn't had that opportunity.

Can you give me a full reads list with explanations by the time I check the thread again?

ghug - Town, role PM
Chaqa - Town, outburst
Sweet - scum, vibes
Bunny - scum, trying to provoke me
everyone else - null, boringness

I'm willing to attribute it to your having played somewhere weird before, but asking people to force reads lists early in the game is bad.

[ghug]

Also, im just going to pre-empt this with my reasoning for my vote on sweet there, since I think you should also not totally exclude me from the potential bussers.....

In my last readslist I did mention my 4 scum candidates, damo being one of them, and sweet as my hardest to read person in the game.

My reasons to still switch to sweetandcool there over damo:
1: wagon composition, bunny+will+frog (all my favorite townreads) were on it, and had made some compelling arguments.
2: I know ive been fooled by sweet and cool in the past before. While reading some of the sweetandcool posts I actually felt he was slightly more on the towny side, but I actively decided to ignore that feeling and not comment on it since it wasnt good enough of a reason since ive been fooled by that exact play in the past.
3: I know I always tend to wrongly scumread Damo D1. He hardly ever is scum when he appears pretty disinterested. Also, it was Chaqa and ghug voting that wagon.
4: I was never gonna vote bunny to begin with, but his wagon composition was filled with potential scum. (I dont feel foodcoats belongs to that group, but plenty of people scumread him and I need to consider I -could- be wrong in my townread).

Anyways, thisll probably sound completely unneeded to most of you. My vote came at the critical moment to swing the vote to sweetandcool anyway. But at least ive given my reasoning now, so that way if i do somehow survive till later days people wont swing back to re-evaluating my vote from a different light (because it can also be explained from some scum pov im sure).

When has sweetandcool had the opportunity to fool you in the past?

I dno when it was, but there was a game where I was townreading him all game and he turned out scum playing a very formidable game.

It stung particularly, because I have fond memories of Sweet's first game on this website, where everyone scumread him all game, but I knew he was town, and I protected him all game from getting killed.

People are clearly more zoned in on his current meta than I am, so I decided to sheep.

Its also a more personal choice on playstyle, as ive decided to be less ego-driven in my reads. My reads have not been as stellar in the last bunch of games ive played, so better to pay more attention to people I feel I can trust.

I don't think that happened.

[Hamilton Brian]

I keep trying to re-read Bozo and each time I do, I'm more confused than the time before.

He is being very weird this game. Does anyone else have any thoughts about the present version of Bozo?

No, I have not finished my read/catchup... but having this tab open distracts me. And THIS made an impression on me.

Re read Bozo's big long list of everyone he is suspicious of. I think he was (rare for him) being FUNNY. These are stretches, some more than others. Ridiculously stated so that he is acting humorous (his TI calculator must be broken) and clever-ish.

Kind of surprising others haven't drawn that conclusion. I have no comment yet on anything else bozo has been 'odd' with... but that wall post was stand-up sarcastic exaggerating humor.

I did mention it yesterday. In my rather forgettable way, but yes.

[ghug]

I have thoughts about Ghug.

-He has extensively talked about how he is perceived as needing to die N1. This would be a bit of a problem as scum. Ergo, a perceived flawed towngame is a nessecity if he rolls scum.
-His positioning around the wagons can be interpreted as rather convenient from a few points of view. He made the claim earlier that sweet was gut-scum. He made good use of that after the flip to excuse his not chasing that wagon down. Everyone feels its a natural progression, and excuses the missed scumvote at a time-critical moment.
-He sheeps damo onto HB (an excellent vote in a world of HB + ghug being the remaining scum, you actually want HB to be the counter to your GF there).
-Then he just jumps on the person that he sheeped a moment before (Damo). Starting a wagon with someone you apparently scumread given your later vote? seems odd, but nothing too painfull.
-Then a jump onto bunny.

All of these actions can be very well explained as working towards the scum victory conditions that Ghug would need in a world where his GF is under real pressure. He took some real shots at saving the GF without getting real scrutiny for it. He is in a very plausible situation where he wont be scrutinized for living long.

Another point that I feel I need to air; I have a very strong gutfeeling that Ghug is doing a lot of micro-things to get on people's good side. He is actively doing things he knows appeal to people he's played with for quite a while. Normally as town he just tends to ignore those people for the most part.

I think this is mostly fair except for the last bit, but I'll clarify a couple things:
- Your first point is also true if I'm town.
- I actually sheeped damo onto HB because I thought damo was being suspicious in trying to push for any new wagon he could find. I wanted to see what would happen, and even noted that I didn't actually agree with him when I made the vote. He very quickly determined that HB wasn't getting traction and tried a new new target, which was the point where I jumped onto him. Scum damo is often willing to blatantly and transparently push an agenda, which is what it felt like there, and the fact that there was scum on the block makes me feel like that's a likely explanation.

[Hamilton Brian]

seems exactly like normal bozo to me....

You think it is normal for Bozo to post a long reads list in which he scumreads everybody?

id say it barely registers as peculiar on the bozo scale of things.

And I hadnt even considered darg's take that it might just be jokes.

It was odd for sure, but Bozo often is. Whether he is scum or town is sorta besides the point im making here.

When bozo responds that far our of character? "It barely registers" doesn't give me confidence that you're reading as closely as you'd like us to think you are.

[ghug]

I have thoughts about Ghug.

-He has extensively talked about how he is perceived as needing to die N1. This would be a bit of a problem as scum. Ergo, a perceived flawed towngame is a nessecity if he rolls scum.
-His positioning around the wagons can be interpreted as rather convenient from a few points of view. He made the claim earlier that sweet was gut-scum. He made good use of that after the flip to excuse his not chasing that wagon down. Everyone feels its a natural progression, and excuses the missed scumvote at a time-critical moment.
-He sheeps damo onto HB (an excellent vote in a world of HB + ghug being the remaining scum, you actually want HB to be the counter to your GF there).
-Then he just jumps on the person that he sheeped a moment before (Damo). Starting a wagon with someone you apparently scumread given your later vote? seems odd, but nothing too painfull.
-Then a jump onto bunny.

All of these actions can be very well explained as working towards the scum victory conditions that Ghug would need in a world where his GF is under real pressure. He took some real shots at saving the GF without getting real scrutiny for it. He is in a very plausible situation where he wont be scrutinized for living long.

Another point that I feel I need to air; I have a very strong gutfeeling that Ghug is doing a lot of micro-things to get on people's good side. He is actively doing things he knows appeal to people he's played with for quite a while. Normally as town he just tends to ignore those people for the most part.

I have just realised that Ghug never voted me or pushed me as a top scumread at any point in D1.

That's very unusual for him. He usually scumreads me regardless of all other variables.

Does that mean you're scum?

[brainbomb]

Will seems very scummy to me. Im rereading him and I see confidence but his posts dont do anything for me. Im not sure why hes confident. Looks like scum happy about gamestate

##vote Justaguynamedwill

My scumread on will is that I remember him differently. Maybe I just ignored him most games, but I just dont remember seeing this side of him. He struck me as a non factor wall flower guy who couldnt find his footing and stumbles around games making gaffes but usually doesnt seem confident. more just, curious, and nonchalant. Some of the gaffes led him into hot water which I suppose I could see making sense as town given the way he has interacted with my ideas.

-And just how would you know my alleged teammates are under no scrutiny? You can’t know unless you think you have found all the mafia

I would assume it means you are scum with either sweet or chaqa who championed how supposedly towny you are (probably not both)

It makes some sense as it being sweet as hardly anyones scumreading him.

But overall if you are scum theres a very large pool of players not under scrutiny.

Im not sure these are bad answers you are giving but they dont seem to be landing as town mindset

The idea that will was confident, and was scum stems from that his confidence is a direct result of how well scum was doing at the time. Sweet was not under pressure at that stage nor was will. Will had just been listed as town by several players a few pages prior to this and sweet had shrugged off ghug and others who had a scent on him at the time. Or at the very least, ghug as an example was scumreading him but not on him. The confidence displayed by will struck me as a scumtell, that this was someone acting unusually to their town meta, this was someone displaying confidence where there would usually be confusion and curiousity. None of wills posts during this span seem to be curious about anyone or questioning of anyone.

This feels like a very townie post from sweet. Both perceptive and critical of brain’s position, and willing to accept criticism and not overly fight back against the scumreading. Nuanced and broad in the way that is more natural to town. I think that makes it worth townleaning sweet.

This probably couldve just been written as “hey sweet nice job on accepting youve been hedging when you didnt realize it; that seems towny to me”

Instead this comes off as an anatomical review of how sweet handles his nuanced position on bunny.

Food do you feel like sweets read on bunny is growing, evolving, expanding - or stagnating or no longer relevant.

or is this take that sweet was hedging but it looks townie because he admitted it
still one of your reasons for townreading sweet.

I never liked this at all. This was too flowery and verbose from food to apply a townread on sweet over. It seems like something you say about a scum buddy to build them up.

I am quite certain that I have accurately pinged at least a mafia or two.

My top scumreads are
Foodcoats
bunnygo
Justaguynamedwill
Chaqa

And then I am no longer sure of Hamilton as he just seems to
Be mafia all the time when I play.

Sweet does not strike me as scum nor does frog but ive had them ping me slightly a few times. Probably would not vote for sweet but id maybe consider frog.

town im still solidly
Ghug
jamie
Bozo

vecna has seemed mostly authentic in his catch ups

i also still think Heart is town. Thats probably the read people want the most detail about but its really gut at this point


Damo is null for me.

Wait, is this just flavor or are you being serious about a 3 way mafia team of Bunny, me and Food????

This is weird
[/quote]

That is my scumteam that id assume to be mostly accurate
[/quote]

These reads are still pretty solidly cemented in my brain. I only ever barely could see sweet as scum and much of it came from trusting ghug and the other voices saying something felt iffy about him. I didnt trust the way food was talking about sweet but at the time I didnt necessarily think w.w. I didnt trust how will was strutting around all giddy in the thread and thought maybe someone like sweet would be a w/w pair with will but it was never deeply explored.

My assessment is that the scumteam comprised of food-bunny-will held a town hall meeting to discuss removing brainbomb - a historical landmark. they concluded that in order to do this it required brainbomb to be replaced with a fully erect building of the same force and magnitude in its place. Lacking popular vote from the town hall they spread away from
Plans to demolish the historical brainbomb parking garage like the destitute scum ridden cockroaches they are- seeking twinkies and other scraps from the sewers.

My pivot here became that I was sure of will and food, and bunny was so gimmicky and so ick the whole day, and kept shading me over and over and always listing my reads as bad or questionable that I started thinking bunny maybe just had a target on me and that the target was a team unanimous concept. All three came for my head. Will, Food and Bunny. Obviously at least 1 was town, and sweet never did join or even really talk about that. So not to get too conf biased here but the peices do still add up that 2 scum did try to blow up the brainbomb parking garage. I just no longer think bunny was one of the two.

I agree; but there is game left to be played today and things can be learned here. Count me in if it comes to that

I dont know what sweet is saying there. Bunny is more likely to lead back to teammates than Will? I am starting to think its really just foodcoats and will and this is a super simple answer.

This point in the game I have no intention of voting sweet. I am more interested in Bunny dying but I also like bunny, and would want to give bunny more than 1 day before I pull such a trigger.

At this point I see the heart wagon.
I start asking heart questions and he doesnt show up.

Bunny vs Sweet gets to a 4 v 5 with sweet leading. Im not all about that, the only reasons I ever had for scumreading sweet was maybe he was scum with Will and that foodcoats my top scumread was sketchy on how he white knighted sweet.

So I ask bunny in that moment 3 minutes to go, "why do I let you live"
But I also that my vote would tie the wagons so Im not about to move off frog and do that anyway.

And then everyone piled on sweet, making it so that any vote I wouldve added to the pile was purely cosmetic at that point, and regardless of flip does nothing to impact the outcome anyway. Adding my name to bunny does nothing either.

I had a moment where my vote couldve impacted end of day, but it was only ever in a negative way, that was riskier for town anyway.

[ghug]

Thoughts on Bozo and darg?

Not really. Bozo is making funnies. NAI.

Heart is busy IRL and the towniest thing he did was not cave to frog asking for immediate responses. But he’s got enough of a will save to do that as scum too.

Perhaps bozo has really changed a lot since I played Mafia more frequently. I find his approach quite off. Making the entire playerbase a scumread list was odd.

He does jokes now.

[ghug]

Also I would like suggestions for what to name my new three-hole punch. It seems like it needs a name.

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

[ghug]

Wasn't there someone that used to duck out of games and get a sub when they drew scum?

Very sus that Chaqa hasn't demanded we swing the subs yet.

[brainbomb]

gonna also say that Bunny being scum with will is a thing, maybe. especially depends on how food flips. I plan to be eliminating food tomorrow as that answers the most questions about a lot of things. It addresses someone who was voting desperately alongside sweet, was hard defending sweet, was hard pushing to kill me, and was very vocal as a whip at end of day to save sweet.

I also think on top of everything else, food is in his scum meta to a T. the glove more than fits.

[Chaqa]

Wasn't there someone that used to duck out of games and get a sub when they drew scum?

Very sus that Chaqa hasn't demanded we swing the subs yet.

I've never had a particular anti-sub stance

[brainbomb]

Wasn't there someone that used to duck out of games and get a sub when they drew scum?

Very sus that Chaqa hasn't demanded we swing the subs yet.

thats DemonRHK

[BunnyGo]

Brainbomb: The Hole Puncher

Actually I suggest you call it "Shitbrain Fucksternuts" because then if you ever speak that name aloud when referring to your hole punch, people will conclude that you are mad.

Some poor soul out there has a hole puncher named Shitbrain Fucksternuts XD

His name is Jamie