Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[foodcoats]

Alright.

I nominate Chaqa.

So chaqa now decides if we count up 4 or down 4, right? Basically decides between the two lists I posted (if I didn't make a mistake that is)?

Correct

Do it live Chaqa.

[Jamiet99uk]

Alright.

I nominate Chaqa.

Nah.

I plan to use my night action on brainbomb.

If Chaqa does not want to choose "up or down" I think Jamie needs to pick someone else so we can finalize damo's plan to get a list in time for everyone to see it.

Okay, I choose Damo.

[brainbomb]

Sorry if I misrepresented you, Kak. The thing is that there is a narrative throughout the thread right now where some people are saying they want to control their own PR action choice. My point is that everyone needs to realize that is a meaningless choice for town, or an illusion of freedom. Our best chance of getting to a place where townfolk can make meaningful, impactful choices with their targets is by collaborating on N1 to get the maximum information and figure out our roles.

We need to fight back against the “muh freedums!” argument, because ultimately not collaborating with town as soon as possible reduces ALL of town’s ability to make meaningful, powerful effects with their actions. Some people may not yet understand just how pointless choosing a target is tonight (for town, anyway; scum have much more info and can make decent directed moves tonight).

I agree that we need as much participation as possible in targeting players is a assigned order, so I think we should go ahead with selecting a list and encourage everyone to follow it, and those who do not can explain why they think their choice was more beneficial than their target from the list.

The attempt to do damo's selection method failed. Can we quickly agree on a method?

I will say again that doing alphabetical and targeting next in line is basically as random as we can get and is very simple so we have better chances of getting people to understand and follow. We can mix it up tomorrow night (hopefully by then people will better appreciate the power of this strategy).

yes I agree with just targeting person next to you, above or below really doesnt matter which.

[brainbomb]

Jamie, I assume you came to the conclusion that by me saying multiple, that a minimum of at least 2 mafia comes more or less as the derivation of the word multiple. I think I understand your answer now and you dont need to answer it.

basically you think only a max of one person on Justaguy wagon was mafia, and that it isnt hamilton because that would be really wild for him to be mafia yet again, and then you think the scummiest person on that wagon was babyspice for maybe trying to tie it?

If lfischl was your top scumread end of day 1, moreso than even justaguynamed will, I am a bit surprised to now hear that lfischl has actually IMPROVED in your reads AFTER KILLING A TOWN.

Can you maybe elaborate on your progression on lfischl here?

[brainbomb]

So if I am scum you theorise that at least 2 of my team mates are in the pool of:

Diplomacy&Warfare
foodcoats
bozotheclown
Hamilton Brian
brainbomb
babyspice666

That's interesting because I am inclined to scumread like one of those people max.

I am happy to do that:

Diplomacy&Warfare - Null
foodcoats - Town
bozotheclown - Town
Hamilton Brian - Oh Jeebus he can't have drawn scum again, can he?
brainbomb - Lean town
babyspice666 - Yikes, why did you tie it??

I notice that you forgot lfischl was on this wagon in both posts. lfischl is someone you scumread at EOD 1, so it surprises me to see you forgot lfischl also killed a town here and was part of this death.

[bozotheclown]

Nah.

I plan to use my night action on brainbomb.

If Chaqa does not want to choose "up or down" I think Jamie needs to pick someone else so we can finalize damo's plan to get a list in time for everyone to see it.

Okay or we do this. But again if we just say "go alpha" it's very easy and unambiguous for everyone.

Kakarroto already made the lists for "up by 4" and "down by 4", we just need someone to select up or down.

[brainbomb]

maybe let me just step back a second and rephrase.

does the fact lfischl killed justaguy reinforce your scumread on him?

Or during this discussion were you not consciously aware that the person you preferred killing over will actively ensured wills death and the breaking of the tie.

Either way I think this looks bad on you for not paying attention to what happened there, or what someone you profess to be worthy of eliminating had done. It is almost like you didnt even realize it happened, which seems like something youd do as mafia, forgetting your own targets behaviors eod.

[bozotheclown]

Nah.

I plan to use my night action on brainbomb.

If Chaqa does not want to choose "up or down" I think Jamie needs to pick someone else so we can finalize damo's plan to get a list in time for everyone to see it.

Okay, I choose Damo.

Is damo still here?

[brainbomb]

Wait a minute:

Why did there happen to be a discrep with the bot and our final numbers?

Looking at the final vote count that Monarch posted, lfischl is on Just but the bot shows their vote on BK3K. What's up with that?

JustAGuyNamedWill (7) Diplomacy&Warfare, foodcoats, bozotheclown, Hamilton Brian, brainbomb, babyspice666, lfischl
BK3K (5) Frogsterking, BobMcBob, Kakarroto, JustAGuyNamedWill
sweetandcool (2) damo666, BunnyGo
lfischl (3) Chaqa, heartthrob24909, Jamiet99uk
Kakarroto (1) Nephthys
Diplomacy&Warfare (1) BK3K
Frogsterking (1) sweetandcool
Chaqa (1) worcej

Because the GM posted the "PLEASE HOLD" message about 30 seconds after the timer the bot uses decided the phase had ended.

The GM chose to accept all votes up to "PLEASE HOLD" including my vote for Lfischl, and Lfischl's vote for Will. Speaking as a regular GM, this is the correct adjudication.

you acknowledged it happened here and noted it in the vote tally, and agreed with the ruling.

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie, I assume you came to the conclusion that by me saying multiple, that a minimum of at least 2 mafia comes more or less as the derivation of the word multiple. I think I understand your answer now and you dont need to answer it.

basically you think only a max of one person on Justaguy wagon was mafia, and that it isnt hamilton because that would be really wild for him to be mafia yet again, and then you think the scummiest person on that wagon was babyspice for maybe trying to tie it?

If lfischl was your top scumread end of day 1, moreso than even justaguynamed will, I am a bit surprised to now hear that lfischl has actually IMPROVED in your reads AFTER KILLING A TOWN.

Can you maybe elaborate on your progression on lfischl here?

Almost, but let me clarify:

Firstly, yes, I assume by "multiple" you mean more than one, because that is the normal meaning of that word.

I think it could be Hamilton or Lfischl or Babyspice, but I doubt they are all scum.

My comment on Hamilton means a slightly different thing than you have understood. What I mean is, at that time I found Hamilton slightly scummy (and still do, tbh), but my comment reflected the fact that it would be amusing for him to roll scum so often. I did not mean I don't think he's scummy. He is. He's potential scum.

Babyspice I simply know nothing about. Her vote was a "yikes" moment, and I'm not sure how to read it.

Lfischl remains a potential suspect. I don't townread Lfischl yet. But he looks slightly less scummy because he was keen to break a tie, bearing in mind a D1 tie is bad for town's thought process.

You might say "oh but what if Lfischl was trying to save BK3K?" But if Lfischl and BK3K are partners, then would Lfischl really be a bold enough busser to jump onto a late flashwagon on BK3K and contribute to nearly getting his team-mate killed?

I am not sure Lfischl is that bold.

Now having responded to this in some detail, another question occurs to me. BK3K has barely posted tonight and has not really reacted to the fact that he was within a whisker of being day-killed at EOD.

@BK3K: Please could we have your reflections on the End-Of-Day voting which nearly saw you yeeted into the dead pile?

[brainbomb]

You will be pleased to know that my actual scumreads are:

BK3K
BobMcBob
Chaqa
JustAGuyNamedWill
Lfischl
Sweetandcool
... and somewhat of a scumlean on Hamilton Brian.

I townread Frogster, Foodcoats, and Brainbomb. Maybe Kak also.

Here you have Justaguy named will as a stronger scumread than lfischl. on P48

[Jamiet99uk]

maybe let me just step back a second and rephrase.

does the fact lfischl killed justaguy reinforce your scumread on him?

Or during this discussion were you not consciously aware that the person you preferred killing over will actively ensured wills death and the breaking of the tie.

Either way I think this looks bad on you for not paying attention to what happened there, or what someone you profess to be worthy of eliminating had done. It is almost like you didnt even realize it happened, which seems like something youd do as mafia, forgetting your own targets behaviors eod.

Well, I have addressed this in quite a lot of detail now.

To add, in the heat of the moment, I did not see Lfischl's vote, it crossed over with mine, as I saw it, I was the one breaking the tie.

But also on my current view of Lfischl I refer to my last post. Thank you for asking a sensible question which helped me collect my thoughts.

[Jamiet99uk]

You will be pleased to know that my actual scumreads are:

BK3K
BobMcBob
Chaqa
JustAGuyNamedWill
Lfischl
Sweetandcool
... and somewhat of a scumlean on Hamilton Brian.

I townread Frogster, Foodcoats, and Brainbomb. Maybe Kak also.

Here you have Justaguy named will as a stronger scumread than lfischl. on P48

That list is in alphabetical order, Brainbomb, not order of strength of reads.

[damo666]

If Chaqa does not want to choose "up or down" I think Jamie needs to pick someone else so we can finalize damo's plan to get a list in time for everyone to see it.

Okay, I choose Damo.

Is damo still here?

Yes, I choose up.

Will find and repost the list Kak prepared.

The more that follow the better but clearly we are going to have dissenters.

[Jamiet99uk]

Im not sure babyspice is experienced enough at forum mafia to consciously know that tying the vote is better for scum there.

Hi everyone!! Sorry for the late post, just getting caught up on everything now. going to take me a bit to read it all but ill post my thoughts once I've gone through the pages

hi still here and reading, promise i will vote before the day ends

okay popping back in, ive read most of the thread and I'm going to ##vote Just

However I have a hard time fully believing that they read most of the thread, and they never posted any thoughts after saying they would do so.

Who is friends with this person and how do they usually play mafia?

hi okay i have never played mafia before on a forum like this so please keep that in mind lol

yesterday i spent like 2 hours reading but couldnt get through it all, saw that most people had voted for just and i didn't want to cause a tie by voting for someone else

i genuinely did not realize that i had tied it , i had to leave right after i voted for a work staff party so literally put in my vote then had to go and realizing now that is not the move lol

i will explain why i did eventually vote just , I thought his argument against bozo made it seem like he was lying and trying to pin blame on someone ( the whole saying he was online when bozo said he hides his status), im not familiar with his gameplay but I thought some of his posts were a little sketchy, but then Kakarroto said that was somewhat common so I questioned it a little. But then at the end it seemed like if I voted for someone else it would have the chance of creating a tie

my thoughts on everyone else (honestly based on the first 30 pages, ill read more today so this is probs somewhat outdated) were that i initially thought sweetandcool was maybe scum bc he entered saying he was town and jumped on Kak to vote him out immediately after he said something (but also maybe this was a joke bc it was still D1)

brainbomb was being very silly so i thought that he was just goofing around and not scum, but then i thought maybe it was sus that he was wanting to pair w sweet and others bc i thought sweet was scum?

then jamie came in really hot and so i thought maybe he was being defensive and wanted to participate so people wouldnt think he was scum

frogster was very active in the forum which i thought was interesting bc he was a new player but then realized he had played before. i felt like he was town just trying aggressively to figure things out, the only thing i thought was kinda weird was when someone asked how he plays as scum and he says he ghosts the forum... like why would you admit exactly what you do as scum. that made me not trust his answer and then not trust him a little.

lfischl im very curious about. its interesting that everyone here has played so much together that they know how certain people tend to play, and they thought lfischl was being suspicious.

This answer appears to come from an honest place.

I am willing to townlean Babyspice at the moment.

[damo666]

babyspice666 → lfischl
BK3K → Nephthys
BobMcBob → sweetandcool
bozotheclown → worcej
Brainbomb → babyspice666
BunnyGo → BK3K
Chaqa → BobMcBob
Damo666 → bozotheclown
Diplomacy&Warfare → brainbomb
foodcoats → BunnyGo
Frogsterking → Chaqa
Hamilton Brian → damo666
heartthrob24909 → Diplomacy&Warfare
Jamiet99uk → foodcoats
Kakarroto → Frogsterking
lfischl → Hamilton Brian
Nephthys → heartthrob24909
sweetandcool → Jamiet99uk
Worcej → Kakarroto

This is the definitive list. E.g. I target bozo.

Follow it or not, the choice is yours.

[brainbomb]

Reading this progression of posts about Will leading up to the end of the day you seem to be reinforcing bozo who has a reason to scumread will.

Last game bozo got right into mechs. This game he didn’t.

Frogster is still my #1 mafia candidate, but…

##VOTE BOZO

Suspicious man

Does Will making sense make him scum?

This game has been weird.

I think Frog and Jamiet are good votes, but Jamiet hasn't taken off. I privately have been suspicious of Bozo and am happy with this vote.

##VOTE Bozo

Do you agree with JustWill's reason for voting Bozo?

Furthermore, bozo was more involved in non-mech talk last game, and he is absent without a good reason (or at least one I’ve seen). He seems to be doing this intentionally.

So...

Bozo is scum in your eyes for not getting into mech talk early on.
(He posted about mechs in his first post)

Bozo is scum in your eyes for not talking enough about non-mech things.
(This contradicts your first argument, even though your first argument was wrong).

I have seen bozo online on this forum multiple times, and it seems like after most of them, he posts nothing

This seems like a fabrication, I have always had my status hidden for non-mafia game reasons.

Wow, Bozo is right. I was reading the forum and refreshing repeatedly just as Bozo posted this, and his name does not show up as currently online.

What the goose, Will?

So...

Bozo is scum in your eyes for not getting into mech talk early on.
(He posted about mechs in his first post)

Bozo is scum in your eyes for not talking enough about non-mech things.
(This contradicts your first argument, even though your first argument was wrong).

Both of these points I made constitute an argument: I don’t like that he is absent and not talking in general

But your first argument is factually incorrect. This has been pointed out to you.

Why did you think it? Did you post about it at the time?

No, because when I thought I saw it, I thought nothing of it. But once I started thinking about why bozo is scummy, I “remembered” that and thought it was suspicious

What about the other part of your argument that I have repeatedly told you is factually incorrect?

The part where you said Bozo did not talk mechs early in the game - when, in fact, he talks mechs in his first post.

I keep asking you to answer this and your unwillingness to do so is bothersome.

##VOTE FROGSTER

Only decent read I have

Can you remind us?

Every time i post, it jumps me to the end, and I saw someone call out frog for not having scum reads. this conflicts with that.

Also, I saw frog trying to tell me what to do, and I don't even know them yet. I'd prefer a hello first, and an understanding that I have a life outside this.

##Vote Frog

I am still only on page 4, this may change

I mean we're more than a day into the game it's reasonable to expect some level of participation

This post really still pings me badly, despite Lfishl being more active.

##Vote Lfischl

You still want this, Brainbomb?

Is Will even here to place the order for his last meal?

An elegant summary, thank you Jamie.

This is Jamie's favourite miskill hill to die on. Town people say false things too.

I am not voting for JustWill, I am voting for Lfischl.

You are voting for Damo alongside nobody else. Why do you think that is useful?

I preferred Lfischl over JustWill, that's all.

I struggle to see how you preferred lfischl over will based on the direction the dialogue was going. you were encouraging bozo that will was changing his visibility status intentionally?

[bozotheclown]

babyspice666 → lfischl
BK3K → Nephthys
BobMcBob → sweetandcool
bozotheclown → worcej
Brainbomb → babyspice666
BunnyGo → BK3K
Chaqa → BobMcBob
Damo666 → bozotheclown
Diplomacy&Warfare → brainbomb
foodcoats → BunnyGo
Frogsterking → Chaqa
Hamilton Brian → damo666
heartthrob24909 → Diplomacy&Warfare
Jamiet99uk → foodcoats
Kakarroto → Frogsterking
lfischl → Hamilton Brian
Nephthys → heartthrob24909
sweetandcool → Jamiet99uk
Worcej → Kakarroto

This is the definitive list. E.g. I target bozo.

Follow it or not, the choice is yours.

OK, thanks.

[foodcoats]

babyspice666 → lfischl
BK3K → Nephthys
BobMcBob → sweetandcool
bozotheclown → worcej
Brainbomb → babyspice666
BunnyGo → BK3K
Chaqa → BobMcBob
Damo666 → bozotheclown
Diplomacy&Warfare → brainbomb
foodcoats → BunnyGo
Frogsterking → Chaqa
Hamilton Brian → damo666
heartthrob24909 → Diplomacy&Warfare
Jamiet99uk → foodcoats
Kakarroto → Frogsterking
lfischl → Hamilton Brian
Nephthys → heartthrob24909
sweetandcool → Jamiet99uk
Worcej → Kakarroto

This is the definitive list. E.g. I target bozo.

Follow it or not, the choice is yours.

Thanks damo.

The choice is yours, but remember that Chaqa thinks following this approach is best for town (and he is going to do what is worse for town anyway. )

[Jamiet99uk]

babyspice666 → lfischl
BK3K → Nephthys
BobMcBob → sweetandcool
bozotheclown → worcej
Brainbomb → babyspice666
BunnyGo → BK3K
Chaqa → BobMcBob
Damo666 → bozotheclown
Diplomacy&Warfare → brainbomb
foodcoats → BunnyGo
Frogsterking → Chaqa
Hamilton Brian → damo666
heartthrob24909 → Diplomacy&Warfare
Jamiet99uk → foodcoats
Kakarroto → Frogsterking
lfischl → Hamilton Brian
Nephthys → heartthrob24909
sweetandcool → Jamiet99uk
Worcej → Kakarroto

This is the definitive list. E.g. I target bozo.

Follow it or not, the choice is yours.

I confirm I am submitting an order to visit Foodcoats.