Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[Chaqa]

Bozo is correct. @Jamie to select someone to select up or down.

Back in 6 to 7 hours.

Alright.

I nominate Chaqa.

Nah.

I plan to use my night action on brainbomb.

[brainbomb]

nice.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm gonna be honest, I seriously considered doing option 2, but not option 1 because I was overthinking the wagon crossing thing. But it is a weird explanation given his vote move was at the very last second (actually after it according to the bot) so moving anywhere else would've achieved the exact same thing.

BabySpice voted with around 1 minute to go until the deadline. Until that vote was cast there was no tie to break. I had a choice between acting at the very last second, or not acting at all.

It is both of you who are being weird by suggesting that I had some pre-meditated plan.

I would not be surprised if one of you is scum trying to create noise and smoke in the thread by getting me annoyed. BunnyGo has history of doing that; you are apparently just a naturally annoying person, Bob. So I wonder which of you it is.

Why doesn’t your post facto explanation match your stated goals? You have ascribed competing goals and narrative to your action. I have paid this out both with clearly stated logic which you’ve ignored and more emotional ways. You’ve responded with ad hominem attacks.

Wherefor Jamie?

What are you talking about?

I voted Lfischl to break the tie.

Brainbomb and Sweet were having a conversation about why I chose Lfischl for that vote and not JustWill. Brainbomb was implying I had some specific reason for not being able to vote for JustWill (which doesn't make a lot of sense). I replied to explain that I very simply preferred Lfischl over JustWill in that moment.

What is it you don't understand about that response?

[Chaqa]

The most important thing to consider, in my opinion, is that we can’t draw any meaningful clues from our returns without cross-referencing to other claimed returns. If we don’t claim, we basically throw away our powers. I suspect scum will not throw away theirs!

I think that if we don’t all claim, we make it harder for ALL town players to fully understand the meaning of their powers (consider getting a “town” return in isolation; who are you and what do you know?). Whoever does not claim actively deprives others of the fun of their role - and deprives themselves of the chance to learn valuable information and contribute to a shared Team Town victory!

Also, given that scum aren’t all vanilla goons, we are extra pooched if we don’t try to use our powers!

Stop using logic against me. Your jedi mind tricks won't work.

I see what you're saying. It will be difficult to know what results mean without collective results. I guess I mostly disagree with losing my choice of target.

For tonight, what specific value do you believe there is in choosing a target versus having a target randomly assigned?

I don't want to choose someone I strongly townread in case I have a negative effect. I plan to choose brain because he's the highest volume poster.

If I get a scan that indicates him as scum, the game thread becomes shorter and easier to read, and if it indicates him as town, it means I should actually pay attention to what he says.

If it kills him, see the first point.

[brainbomb]

the specific reason for you refusing to cast a vote on the lead wagon would be that multiple scum partners of yours are already on said wagon --- or that No scum are on said wagon and you wanted to keep it that way.

those are examples of why you could be mafia and deliberately avoided casting a meaningful vote.

[Chaqa]

A question for all the good people…

Who thinks that scum don’t care about us mass claiming?

SCUM CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

SCUM DON’T CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

I don't think reframing this debate as pro-scum vs. anti-scum is productive to convincing people. Those of us with misgivings will wind up with a stink of scum because we didn't go along with groupthink.

You smell nice either way - you have a dog it seems and I like how dogs smell!

But what do you think scum would prefer? Town mass claim or no town mass claim?

That depends on the scum themselves. Different teams will have idealogical differences.

[Jamiet99uk]

I literally moved my vote to avoid a tie.

The question Brainbomb and Sweet were speculating about was why I preferred to move to Lfischl rather than JustWill. So I commented on that.

You are skimming quickly and asking questions that you could see the answers to if you slowed down and looked at the context.

Sorry if I seem tetchy but you're doing Bob's thing where you ask a question about a single post in isolation even though that post is very obviously one part of a conversation. It's annoying because it requires redundant extra posts to answer even though the context was already plainly available.

Well if this isnt the most ironic thing ive ever seen.

Not the same thing.

I am saying that in the case of Bunny's present nonsense, he was focusing on my post and ignoring the conversation.

You, meanwhile, often expect people to read your mind. I would rather not delve into that swamp.

[Chaqa]

Where are bozo's thoughts about that all btw?

I would REALLY appreciate his input here

Second this. Bozo is the King Clown of Mecha Anime

[brainbomb]

Sorry if I seem tetchy but you're doing Bob's thing where you ask a question about a single post in isolation even though that post is very obviously one part of a conversation. It's annoying because it requires redundant extra posts to answer even though the context was already plainly available.

Well if this isnt the most ironic thing ive ever seen.

Not the same thing.

I am saying that in the case of Bunny's present nonsense, he was focusing on my post and ignoring the conversation.

You, meanwhile, often expect people to read your mind. I would rather not delve into that swamp.

I expect people to do some leg work and have a basic modicum of making logical inferences. something you consistently fail to do after 8 years of playing the game. if it isnt spelled out in bloody detail for you with diagrams, pictures, graphs and quotes you become this wookie in the thread flailing around about how everything is so confusing.

[Jamiet99uk]

So currently Bob, Chaqa and lfischl are vocally opposed to trying to coordinate our roles to get information because it “isn’t fun.” I find that really strange… maybe I’m just a competitive person? Do most of you not care about trying to win? Why play?

They are a combination of obstinate morons and/or scum.

Or people who want to actually make their own choices with their roles and not be forced into some scheme.

Even if said scheme obviously benefits town.

You want the free will to act sub-optimally. Okay, Murray Rothbard, if that's what you want.

[brainbomb]

Chaqa, you mentioned the two most net negative outcomes possible for me. that I come back as guilty, or that you shoot me. Is that the extent of how you view my play so far - that I am so anti town and so loud that I could only either be mafia, or deserving of just dying?

I guess I find that really surprising, or is it just purely you dislike top posting players and want the game to be smaller?

[foodcoats]

Food, you voted me about 2 and a half hours from EoD with no explanation. What was your reasoning and what were you hoping to achieve?

Balancing out wagons, same reasons I scumread you before.

The fact that I voted for fisch? Were you feeling less convinced by the sweet wagon or did you just want to keep the wagons even? Did you notice worcej had moved his vote?

When I looked at the bot it was sweet 4 Bob 2 and I was comfortable with both wagons so I wanted to see what might occur by tying them to give future VCA.

[Jamiet99uk]

the specific reason for you refusing to cast a vote on the lead wagon would be that multiple scum partners of yours are already on said wagon --- or that No scum are on said wagon and you wanted to keep it that way.

those are examples of why you could be mafia and deliberately avoided casting a meaningful vote.

I assume this refers to me.

My vote was extremely meaningful because it prevented a tie. I had to make a split-second decision. Clearly I should not have bothered. I will not seek to break ties in future, I am learning my lesson, thank you.

[Chaqa]

the specific reason for you refusing to cast a vote on the lead wagon would be that multiple scum partners of yours are already on said wagon --- or that No scum are on said wagon and you wanted to keep it that way.

those are examples of why you could be mafia and deliberately avoided casting a meaningful vote.

Who is this directed at?

[foodcoats]

Assuming we ALL chose to participate in the directed PR system:

Plus assuming there will be no roleblocks for town because curfew enforcer hits sicko (I first thought they would act in the same phase but it turns out the curfew enforcer is faster so there is a chance that mafia RB is town RB'ed), PLUS assuming NK is saved by doc:

openly towncleared:
news host (+gets info on their target out)

openly towncleared if target claims:
paper delivery boy
door darter

openly towncleared if no counter claim or copy from mail man:
a) private investigator
a) middle manager (plus two info that needs sorting but that can be done)
b) detective
b) internal affairs
b) electoral comission officer (plus two useful info that needs more sorting since one useless info is mixed in)
c) ruber driver
c) pollster

outs the sicko if docsave is one of the above and if lobbyist finds out their role with no further claims of success/failure:
curfew enforcer

depending on the role/alignment of the target, a few more peeps are outed. That would be a pretty fast game for town.

but this is the best case scenario. We shouldn't expect that to happen.


===============

Assuming two town don't participate in the directed PR system:

Plus assuming sicko RB's a town role (randomly) plus assuming curfew enforcer doesn't hit sicko, plus no doc save:

random chance for town roles not to participate:
roll 9 (hits ECO)
roll 10 (hits middle manager)

random chance for sicko to hit town:
roll 14 (hits lobbyist)

random chance for curfew enforcer to hit:
roll 19 (hits lobbyist too, what are the chances)

random chance for mafia to hit:
roll 7 (hits mail man)

openly towncleared:
news host (+gets info on their target out)

three people claim alignment return:
looks good but one mafia is hiding unknowingly to town since ECO didn't participate

two people claim role return:
looks good but one mafia is hiding unknowingly to town since middle manager didn't participate

two people claiming target:
appears to be town and are actual both town but might cause shade if one of the upper two tiers flip mafia

a bunch of successful/failure claims (including doc, lobbyist and some fake claims)

after EoD people know that lobbyist was rb'ed though


so with that scenario, there seemed to be quite the chance of misinformation happening and mafia hiding while getting to know some good detective/private detective



So it seems to me, the directed system isn't fool proof, especially when not every town participates.

any thoughts?

Democracy isn’t fool proof. Do you prefer dictatorship?

[Jamiet99uk]

Well if this isnt the most ironic thing ive ever seen.

Not the same thing.

I am saying that in the case of Bunny's present nonsense, he was focusing on my post and ignoring the conversation.

You, meanwhile, often expect people to read your mind. I would rather not delve into that swamp.

I expect people to do some leg work and have a basic modicum of making logical inferences. something you consistently fail to do after 8 years of playing the game. if it isnt spelled out in bloody detail for you with diagrams, pictures, graphs and quotes you become this wookie in the thread flailing around about how everything is so confusing.

My brain works the way my brain works. I cannot change the functioning of my brain to suit your particular neuro-divergences. Get over it.

[brainbomb]

the specific reason for you refusing to cast a vote on the lead wagon would be that multiple scum partners of yours are already on said wagon --- or that No scum are on said wagon and you wanted to keep it that way.

those are examples of why you could be mafia and deliberately avoided casting a meaningful vote.

I assume this refers to me.

My vote was extremely meaningful because it prevented a tie. I had to make a split-second decision. Clearly I should not have bothered. I will not seek to break ties in future, I am learning my lesson, thank you.

Maybe you should read this again and respond to the scenarios where you did this because youre mafia. And discuss if you agree with those being possible things you would have done if you were mafia

[brainbomb]

the specific reason for you refusing to cast a vote on the lead wagon would be that multiple scum partners of yours are already on said wagon --- or that No scum are on said wagon and you wanted to keep it that way.

those are examples of why you could be mafia and deliberately avoided casting a meaningful vote.

Who is this directed at?

Jamie

[Jamiet99uk]

Chaqa, you mentioned the two most net negative outcomes possible for me. that I come back as guilty, or that you shoot me. Is that the extent of how you view my play so far - that I am so anti town and so loud that I could only either be mafia, or deserving of just dying?

I guess I find that really surprising, or is it just purely you dislike top posting players and want the game to be smaller?

Why are we talking about shooting again?

There isn't a vigilante in play.

[Chaqa]

Chaqa, you mentioned the two most net negative outcomes possible for me. that I come back as guilty, or that you shoot me. Is that the extent of how you view my play so far - that I am so anti town and so loud that I could only either be mafia, or deserving of just dying?

I guess I find that really surprising, or is it just purely you dislike top posting players and want the game to be smaller?

I think my thoughts were more on focusing on someone with a high potential for townplay but also a high potential for scumspam. Resolving that seems prudent when we have a roster capaable of 50 pages per day.