Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[heartthrob24909]

Ok, caught up.

First, this is the current state of where people stand:

Directed PR-actions D1 over free-for-all?

YEA: bozo, damo, Jamie, heart (and if I'm not wrong, food too? didn't really vote but I think his stance is quite clear)

NEY: lfischl, sweet, bob, chaqa

??? (explain below): BK3K (does what group thinks is smartest - so I think YEA but only in majority?)

=====

(ney but would still follow if majority is up to: lfischl, sweet) (lfischl retracted his support I think in post number 1384?)

(9/19 voted)

I'm currently uncertain on the fence. However with what I've read and think about it, I tend more to NEY. After I woke up I was thinking it might be fine, but foods strange stance made me ponder.

But let me list advantages/disadvantages:

-) If reaching 100% role-knowledge early enough, town autowins (well that is also true if we don't use the system, but I guess it can still be counted as an advantage?)
-) scans/actions are saved for later/don't require special effort saving
-) mafia needs to pin in their options early if they want to fake claim
-) speeds up finding out own role (effect starts only after SoD3 though)

=====

-) gives mafia information for their nk (starts with N2 if we reveal D2; N3 if we reveal EoN2) which probably helps their PR hunt
-) takes initiative away from town which might probably lead to decreased fun/morale/investment
-) it's not a slam dunk win chance


Hmm ... maybe I'm overlooking something but that kinda sums it up, no? Please tell me if I'm overlooking something.

That tradeoff between giving mafia information and forcing them to lock their fake messages is the crux, I think. I'm not sure I value that high enough to handshake it.

Saving the messages can easily be done if people are diligent posting them when they are voted out. There are also ways to hide them in your posts, some people would call it 'crumb', so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

I also think that the "finding your own role", or how much it speeds it up, is overrated by some people here. It shouldn't take too long to have a grasp on things and have at least a probability for two to four roles. People should be able to work with that.

Yeah, hmm, I'm not convinced it's a good idea to use the system. Especially not if we just blurt out what we got on D2. I'm on NAY for this one.

Feel free to enlighten me if I'm overlooking something or am wrong with a perspective.

I'm starting to wonder whether the organized targeting system is actually needed to still get the benefits of everyone claiming/encrypted-ly claiming their results.

To me the main thing we get is that mafia will have to make something up. I think they're more in the hot seat if we go into the night without a formalized algorithm for who to target, as long as people agree that sharing results is a good idea (since as it's been said before, that's the only way we'll get anywhere)

[Kakarroto]

They are a combination of obstinate morons and/or scum.

I'm not so sure about that. Need to think more.

At least I think it might be a mistake to post your messages right on D2. Maybe it's better to wait for EoN2.

There is another advantage if we do the system: saving the messages for later when people flip, so we aren't without information of their actions after a flip (if someone forgets to post them if they are targeted by vote or nk). But as I said, I need to think more about that.

Can you explain the last paragraph more? I'm not fully following

well, if everyone chooses their target due to the directed system and tells openly what they received, that is open information and if we see (for example) "ahh, XY flipped detective, he said 'town' when targeting YXZ, now we know YXZ is truly town" whereas in contrast, in a free form, if they got nk'ed before they could post and didn't crumb, we wouldn't know that. Hence "advantage of saving messages"

[Kakarroto]

Where are bozo's thoughts about that all btw?

I would REALLY appreciate his input here

[BunnyGo]

If this isn't clear...I find that weird. From you. Weird from you to claim you had the motivation of breaking a tie but then act in some way else. Then to go back and claim you were just voting your preference instead of claiming your were voting to achieve your objective.

I'm gonna be honest, I seriously considered doing option 2, but not option 1 because I was overthinking the wagon crossing thing. But it is a weird explanation given his vote move was at the very last second (actually after it according to the bot) so moving anywhere else would've achieved the exact same thing.

BabySpice voted with around 1 minute to go until the deadline. Until that vote was cast there was no tie to break. I had a choice between acting at the very last second, or not acting at all.

It is both of you who are being weird by suggesting that I had some pre-meditated plan.

I would not be surprised if one of you is scum trying to create noise and smoke in the thread by getting me annoyed. BunnyGo has history of doing that; you are apparently just a naturally annoying person, Bob. So I wonder which of you it is.

Why doesn’t your post facto explanation match your stated goals? You have ascribed competing goals and narrative to your action. I have paid this out both with clearly stated logic which you’ve ignored and more emotional ways. You’ve responded with ad hominem attacks.


Wherefor Jamie?

[BunnyGo]

Diplomacy&Warfare, seeing as you're lurking here, what are your thoughts now that we know Will was town?

Good.

D&W and Baby are not given a second day pass from me. Start playing you two.

[Kakarroto]

Ok, caught up.

First, this is the current state of where people stand:

Directed PR-actions D1 over free-for-all?

YEA: bozo, damo, Jamie, heart (and if I'm not wrong, food too? didn't really vote but I think his stance is quite clear)

NEY: lfischl, sweet, bob, chaqa

??? (explain below): BK3K (does what group thinks is smartest - so I think YEA but only in majority?)

=====

(ney but would still follow if majority is up to: lfischl, sweet) (lfischl retracted his support I think in post number 1384?)

(9/19 voted)

I'm currently uncertain on the fence. However with what I've read and think about it, I tend more to NEY. After I woke up I was thinking it might be fine, but foods strange stance made me ponder.

But let me list advantages/disadvantages:

-) If reaching 100% role-knowledge early enough, town autowins (well that is also true if we don't use the system, but I guess it can still be counted as an advantage?)
-) scans/actions are saved for later/don't require special effort saving
-) mafia needs to pin in their options early if they want to fake claim
-) speeds up finding out own role (effect starts only after SoD3 though)

=====

-) gives mafia information for their nk (starts with N2 if we reveal D2; N3 if we reveal EoN2) which probably helps their PR hunt
-) takes initiative away from town which might probably lead to decreased fun/morale/investment
-) it's not a slam dunk win chance


Hmm ... maybe I'm overlooking something but that kinda sums it up, no? Please tell me if I'm overlooking something.

That tradeoff between giving mafia information and forcing them to lock their fake messages is the crux, I think. I'm not sure I value that high enough to handshake it.

Saving the messages can easily be done if people are diligent posting them when they are voted out. There are also ways to hide them in your posts, some people would call it 'crumb', so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

I also think that the "finding your own role", or how much it speeds it up, is overrated by some people here. It shouldn't take too long to have a grasp on things and have at least a probability for two to four roles. People should be able to work with that.

Yeah, hmm, I'm not convinced it's a good idea to use the system. Especially not if we just blurt out what we got on D2. I'm on NAY for this one.

Feel free to enlighten me if I'm overlooking something or am wrong with a perspective.

I'm starting to wonder whether the organized targeting system is actually needed to still get the benefits of everyone claiming/encrypted-ly claiming their results.

To me the main thing we get is that mafia will have to make something up. I think they're more in the hot seat if we go into the night without a formalized algorithm for who to target, as long as people agree that sharing results is a good idea (since as it's been said before, that's the only way we'll get anywhere)

yeah, I think the system is susceptible when not everyone participates and for rb's. When there are people holding out and mafia fakes messages, even only a few, it could create blind spots, at least for a few days. And that could be enough for mafia to win.

Well, maybe I haven't simulated long enough and it still puts mafia in a very bad spot. But since barely over half of people said YEA or NAY, I don't see us being even close of all town cooperating here.

[Kakarroto]

anyway, I feel spent. I also used way too much time on this all and have to do some other stuff, should've done that hours before actually.

Read my posts, look if I made any mistakes or if my logic is wrong, maybe I go out from a wrong perspective, if so point it out, but also please post your own thoughts and try to unravel if that suggestion for directed targets was actually good or bad.

[foodcoats]

Directed PR-actions D1 over free-for-all?

YEA: bozo, damo, Jamie

NEY:

??? (explain below):

=====

(3/19 voted)

(also I'm soon in my bed, so I wouldn't mind someone else keeping track)

Calling them "directed PR actions" obscures the fact that you can't even properly direct your own action because you don't know what it is and you won't be able to determine what the results mean without cross-referencing. Read the setup and think about it!

wat? What did you put into your food? I think I named it in a pretty neutral way that doesn't misrepresent it, given I thought about the naming only for a couple of seconds. That post feels totally out of the world. What a very strange thing to hang on.

Sorry if I misrepresented you, Kak. The thing is that there is a narrative throughout the thread right now where some people are saying they want to control their own PR action choice. My point is that everyone needs to realize that is a meaningless choice for town, or an illusion of freedom. Our best chance of getting to a place where townfolk can make meaningful, impactful choices with their targets is by collaborating on N1 to get the maximum information and figure out our roles.

We need to fight back against the “muh freedums!” argument, because ultimately not collaborating with town as soon as possible reduces ALL of town’s ability to make meaningful, powerful effects with their actions. Some people may not yet understand just how pointless choosing a target is tonight (for town, anyway; scum have much more info and can make decent directed moves tonight).

[foodcoats]

So do you think that if we actually all coordinate and claim that it will be completely deduction and we will basically autosolve the game as lfishcl is worried about? Do you think the design is that flawed?

I think any role madness game is probably flawed, and I've run a lot of them. But tbh I just don't think it's fun to just play logic puzzle with who said who and what result. It sounds tedious and like one or two people get to figure it all out and the rest of us just have to go along with it.

yeah, that sums up my thoughts about the directed PR actions regarding fun.

Well, not the logic puzzle thing, I like some of those. They are pretty neat. But as a group effort in a command system where most just simply follow orders and give up their thinking, it's kinda not what I want from a mafia game. It just drags the fun out for most.

I DO like winning though, so I'm not completely disregarding taking part. just fyai

I want you to explain your vision of fun, Kak.

Example: tonight, you pick me. You get “Success.”

Okay, go ahead with the explanation of the fun this is for you and the other town members.

[brainbomb]

wait...what?

You weren't consciously trying to make it an odd number of people on the leading 2 wagons to avoid a tie?

I literally moved my vote to avoid a tie.

The question Brainbomb and Sweet were speculating about was why I preferred to move to Lfischl rather than JustWill. So I commented on that.

You are skimming quickly and asking questions that you could see the answers to if you slowed down and looked at the context.

Sorry if I seem tetchy but you're doing Bob's thing where you ask a question about a single post in isolation even though that post is very obviously one part of a conversation. It's annoying because it requires redundant extra posts to answer even though the context was already plainly available.

Well if this isnt the most ironic thing ive ever seen.

[foodcoats]

I'm gonna be honest it's 4 years since we came up with it. I can't remember how we expected it to work exactly.

OK...so look...what's the fun of a game wher FIVE scum know their powers and 13 town don't?! is like watching babis plaing with fire pokers next to wood stove.

IT's fun to place some money on it, but we know how will end.

It's not like after N1 that people know nothing about their role. There is some information everyone gets and you can think things out from there, at least a handful possibilities. There are I think two or three roles who would know immediately (or from people claiming) what role they are. N2 adds to the information gained from N1, depending for some roles it can lead to them knowing from the return, like if they get two different outcomes, they can strike roles from their list.

Hmm ... thinking about that, it's not too bad for town to not share. I think the biggest advantage would be forcing mafia to fake their messages. Hmm.

Is that enough to present mafia the information of our all messages though?

Okay, yes, this is it! This is the fun! Now, is it more fun if you have MORE or LESS information? Which version is more fun as a townie?

[foodcoats]

I think any role madness game is probably flawed, and I've run a lot of them. But tbh I just don't think it's fun to just play logic puzzle with who said who and what result. It sounds tedious and like one or two people get to figure it all out and the rest of us just have to go along with it.

how's the game chage if we all know our roles? is it over?

well, if we all definitely know our role and claim, mafia has to fake claim. That would make (at present) five 2-people-groups (so ten people) we aren't sure of their alignment. Depending on WHEN at the game we find out all our roles, lets say we are so genius and do it on D3 (but unlucky enough to not get even one mafia voted out), that would leave us to those 10 peeps plus 6; then we would be in lock-win, right?

If it takes us until, say, D6 until getting one mafia, we would be at ... bad example, we would've lost (if there's no save that is). So say lets say we get our roles straight on D5: we would be those 10 peeps (5 mafia/5 town) plus 2; we would have five 50/50's; well that's all if we have no special information about those 10 peeps from PR roles. Very unlikely. But just to think it out:

if we misvote one pair on that day, we would be 11, 10 on the day ... and still lose since mafia can just block us.

if we get the 50/50 right on that day, we would be in much better shape: three 100% towns plus 8. Mafia takes one of those 3 out, we are at four 50/50 plus 2 100% town. If we get it wrong there, 4 mafia 5 town, after Night ... well, if we have not the doc, we would be losing again. So yeah, depending if doc is alive and depending on if mafia has their roleblock or not, it's still a pretty bad situation.

So yeah ... I'm not seeing the big advantage for town knowing all roles when mafia can just fake claim, at least if we don't get it by D3.

Hmm ... hmm ... I want more thoughts about those, people. Give me your opinions and what you think about all that.

Exactly! We do not auto win! We just increase our chances of winning by working together!

[brainbomb]

I think the plan is flawed insofar as we dont know if babyspice and diplomacy&warfare are even going to check in, or what their alignments are, or if they even understand this plan. This requires most of the players to be cooperative in the plan or it just forces several of us to out our actions and targets with many other people playing in a diff strategy.

If every person in game has not checked in by around 3 hours to end of phase, I suggest we abort the plan and just have everyone do whatever they want. It isnt a bad plan but its coordination is problematic already

[Chaqa]

So currently Bob, Chaqa and lfischl are vocally opposed to trying to coordinate our roles to get information because it “isn’t fun.” I find that really strange… maybe I’m just a competitive person? Do most of you not care about trying to win? Why play?

They are a combination of obstinate morons and/or scum.

Or people who want to actually make their own choices with their roles and not be forced into some scheme.

[Chaqa]

So currently Bob, Chaqa and lfischl are vocally opposed to trying to coordinate our roles to get information because it “isn’t fun.” I find that really strange… maybe I’m just a competitive person? Do most of you not care about trying to win? Why play?

If I wanted to solve a formula, I'd be playing Excel.

Logic puzzles are an inherent part of the game of Mafia.

If you don't like that, may I suggest Mario Kart?

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/logic-grid-puzzles/id919571269

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.easybrain.cross.logic.puzzle&hl=en_US&gl=US

here, go play these then

[brainbomb]

So currently Bob, Chaqa and lfischl are vocally opposed to trying to coordinate our roles to get information because it “isn’t fun.” I find that really strange… maybe I’m just a competitive person? Do most of you not care about trying to win? Why play?

They are a combination of obstinate morons and/or scum.

Or people who want to actually make their own choices with their roles and not be forced into some scheme.

I could see town chaqa saying this for sure.

[foodcoats]

No. I expect lots of people to do so. I might. I haven't really given it any thought yet.

The most important thing to consider, in my opinion, is that we can’t draw any meaningful clues from our returns without cross-referencing to other claimed returns. If we don’t claim, we basically throw away our powers. I suspect scum will not throw away theirs!

I think that if we don’t all claim, we make it harder for ALL town players to fully understand the meaning of their powers (consider getting a “town” return in isolation; who are you and what do you know?). Whoever does not claim actively deprives others of the fun of their role - and deprives themselves of the chance to learn valuable information and contribute to a shared Team Town victory!

Also, given that scum aren’t all vanilla goons, we are extra pooched if we don’t try to use our powers!

I contest that "we can't draw any meaningful clues from our returns". There is at least one role that immediately knows who they are and we didn't vote that role out.

Oh great, one person in isolation will know they are the Pollster or whatever that role name is! This will help us win the game by… uh…

Sorry, help me here Kak. What’s the thing the Pollster does when they figure out who they are and single-handedly win?

[brainbomb]

the fact we have a survey going of whether to even do the plan or not, and at least 4 or 5 people said nay to it..

I mean, we have the plan going with two diff lists while also running a list of who even wants to do the plan. its chaotic and we dont have alot of time to get this focused.

[Chaqa]

If I wanted to solve a formula, I'd be playing Excel.

Logic puzzles are an inherent part of the game of Mafia.

If you don't like that, may I suggest Mario Kart?

I second that, Mario Kart is good fun with friends.

I don't like Mario Kart, but I would play some Crash Team Racing.

[foodcoats]

A question for all the good people…

Who thinks that scum don’t care about us mass claiming?

SCUM CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

SCUM DON’T CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

what is this question? That's from the same guy that criticised that my naming of the 'directed PR-actions'? OF COURSE mafia cares about a town claiming, in all cases. If it hurts them or if it's useful for them. They absolutely care, but do they love it or do they hate it? Well THAT is a question you DIDN'T ask.

You are very, very strange and I expect you to have a very agenda with all this phrasing and rephrasing. I don't see what brain sees in you that he has you as lock-town and you should be very closely scrutinized!

Okay, I’ll rephrase. Do you think scum will ENCOURAGE or DISCOURAGE mass claiming?