Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[Kakarroto]

@BK3K

If you're town then now is the time to show it IMO.

I’ll be honest with you, it’s hard to keep interest when I come back and there are 20 pages to catch up on. You are taking any wanting to go investigate past games. You and I clearly have different levels of desire to spend time on this. I preferred the mini where we were at like this many pages in the end game, not the beginning of N1

There is a game with about 13 pages (or something like that). It was a total town disaster, where there was pretty much no one talking. Maybe a big game with 20 participants is too much for you personally, but town usually gains a lot with more information posted.

[Kakarroto]

fair point, if you say the truth.

Also, I kinda don't like bob voting with me here. Bob wasn't too bad, but something did bother me. My kak-sense is ringing.

Hmm ... ##vote B3K3

trying to by my sympathy with voting up my posts, chaqa?

grmph I want to say how dare you, but it's kinda working ...

would scum kaka bpost this?

scub kaka dosn't like to take people out of the game. he just wants to have fun and play with friendss and solwve a puzze.

So...why...?

Unless chaqa scum buddy?

that....is possible.

yeah, I do buss a lot as mafia. There are some games where I don't though. You could shoot me to find out?

[Kakarroto]

This scumtell stuff is going to look really silly when I flip.

I'm not voting fisch because I really don't understand the case against them either way.

In fact, I'm a better flip because of this scum tell nonsense. It's never going away so I'm a guaranteed MK at some point.

I also have no idea what they think they saw. Like totally oblivious. I think you have a small chance of being mafia, but I think you're not.

But, if you are the target today, it would be nice to have your thoughts on file. I think we could use them for the future. Not only your reads, also your thoughts for the bozo system with randomization. Do you like it? Do you want changes? Should we not do it?

And other stuff you think we can use and/or are important.

kaka-sweet NOT a scum pair...heard it hear first

I can 100% guarantee that. (also you stole my line )

[Kakarroto]

If I wanted to solve a formula, I'd be playing Excel.

So do you think that if we actually all coordinate and claim that it will be completely deduction and we will basically autosolve the game as lfishcl is worried about? Do you think the design is that flawed?

I think any role madness game is probably flawed, and I've run a lot of them. But tbh I just don't think it's fun to just play logic puzzle with who said who and what result. It sounds tedious and like one or two people get to figure it all out and the rest of us just have to go along with it.

yeah, that sums up my thoughts about the directed PR actions regarding fun.

Well, not the logic puzzle thing, I like some of those. They are pretty neat. But as a group effort in a command system where most just simply follow orders and give up their thinking, it's kinda not what I want from a mafia game. It just drags the fun out for most.

I DO like winning though, so I'm not completely disregarding taking part. just fyai

[Kakarroto]

isn't this partially your design? What'd you expect people to do in such a game?

I'm gonna be honest it's 4 years since we came up with it. I can't remember how we expected it to work exactly.

OK...so look...what's the fun of a game wher FIVE scum know their powers and 13 town don't?! is like watching babis plaing with fire pokers next to wood stove.

IT's fun to place some money on it, but we know how will end.

It's not like after N1 that people know nothing about their role. There is some information everyone gets and you can think things out from there, at least a handful possibilities. There are I think two or three roles who would know immediately (or from people claiming) what role they are. N2 adds to the information gained from N1, depending for some roles it can lead to them knowing from the return, like if they get two different outcomes, they can strike roles from their list.

Hmm ... thinking about that, it's not too bad for town to not share. I think the biggest advantage would be forcing mafia to fake their messages. Hmm.

Is that enough to present mafia the information of our all messages though?

[Kakarroto]

So do you think that if we actually all coordinate and claim that it will be completely deduction and we will basically autosolve the game as lfishcl is worried about? Do you think the design is that flawed?

I think any role madness game is probably flawed, and I've run a lot of them. But tbh I just don't think it's fun to just play logic puzzle with who said who and what result. It sounds tedious and like one or two people get to figure it all out and the rest of us just have to go along with it.

how's the game chage if we all know our roles? is it over?

well, if we all definitely know our role and claim, mafia has to fake claim. That would make (at present) five 2-people-groups (so ten people) we aren't sure of their alignment. Depending on WHEN at the game we find out all our roles, lets say we are so genius and do it on D3 (but unlucky enough to not get even one mafia voted out), that would leave us to those 10 peeps plus 6; then we would be in lock-win, right?

If it takes us until, say, D6 until getting one mafia, we would be at ... bad example, we would've lost (if there's no save that is). So say lets say we get our roles straight on D5: we would be those 10 peeps (5 mafia/5 town) plus 2; we would have five 50/50's; well that's all if we have no special information about those 10 peeps from PR roles. Very unlikely. But just to think it out:

if we misvote one pair on that day, we would be 11, 10 on the day ... and still lose since mafia can just block us.

if we get the 50/50 right on that day, we would be in much better shape: three 100% towns plus 8. Mafia takes one of those 3 out, we are at four 50/50 plus 2 100% town. If we get it wrong there, 4 mafia 5 town, after Night ... well, if we have not the doc, we would be losing again. So yeah, depending if doc is alive and depending on if mafia has their roleblock or not, it's still a pretty bad situation.

So yeah ... I'm not seeing the big advantage for town knowing all roles when mafia can just fake claim, at least if we don't get it by D3.

Hmm ... hmm ... I want more thoughts about those, people. Give me your opinions and what you think about all that.

[Kakarroto]

I think any role madness game is probably flawed, and I've run a lot of them. But tbh I just don't think it's fun to just play logic puzzle with who said who and what result. It sounds tedious and like one or two people get to figure it all out and the rest of us just have to go along with it.

how's the game chage if we all know our roles? is it over?

Everyone will have claimed a role and then we just have to go through the CCs.

either chaqa has giving it a big thought or has some great intuition; I think it's the ladder

[Kakarroto]

5 methods

e.g. nth live player below your name where n is 1 to 5 and the list is circular. Taint difficult. Can we leave it until after EOD pleeeeeze

ok, what are your 3 highest maf-reads?

Who would you shoot if you had a bullet right now (or else get it) (INGAME of course, just to be clear)?

if you could save one target this EoD outside of yourself, who would that be?

kaka kopied heart! and weirdly specified "IS GAME".

kaka-heart not paired

I can also 100% guarantee that I'm not mafia with heart

[Kakarroto]

I seem to remember drunk bunny (tm) being more coherent and switched on than this. Is that really you drunk bunny (tm)? Do you have any tinfoil theories or crazy ideas?

yeah...need to read.

I can' hold my liquor as much anymor.

BUT yeah...

heart seems scummy just talknig to people he knows and ducking.

TOWN:

me (BUNNY!)
Just (RIP!)
Ham B
food
Bob
Dip(?) i don't think a noob scum would pla this hard and silent both
brain
jaime

SCUM:

heart
sweet(...? actually starting to question... scheisse)
froggy?
damo?
bk

Non scum pairs:

food-worc
kaka-heart
neph-kaka

need some more thoughts...

how do peple pronounc "worcej"?!

I thought I made a big enough impact to be at least in one of those categories. Ah well, guess I have to try harder.

Also, as a non-english native speaker, it always was weird that english has letters that sound differently in different words. If you would present the name to any only german speaking person, they would read "vortsey" (with the 'e' from 'letter'). Sounds pretty close to "Würze" btw.

(well there is a very tiny small chance they read "vorkey" if they have influences from latin, but more likely not)

[Kakarroto]

why has worcje not registered in my mind?

He normally says what I'm thinking...

you should ask him

[Kakarroto]

##vote BK3K

I nominate this for a flash wagon. Of the existing top wagons I'd vote sweetandcool. I'm with family and trying to get a hang of the bot on my phone.

why did froggy wana flash us?

and someune darnk my tequla

Good point actually. If I'm town, what would be the scum motivation for Frog to do this?

And if I'm scum buddies with him, then the answer is obvious.

Huh, I guess I'm going to have to Town Frog.

Though given his play, there is a chance he is just an incredibly good Mafia player.

well I tried to vote B2D2 before this, maybe he saw that and it influenced him? Though I miswrote the name so neither the gm nor the bot took it up. Well that is if you believe I made an honest mistake there.

[Kakarroto]

so im gonna use my action on foodcoats as I said; because hes my top town and theres a chance im doc

if you're not gonna follow along...at least don't tell scum?

scum can clearly see that only about three town are even following the plan

so you townread bozo, damo and jamie? Or did you not notice that this are the only three (at this point) to put out their YEA?

[Kakarroto]

Last game was wretched by all metrics. The only clever thing I did well is roleplay as the Investigator, and that didn't end up working.

This game I am pleased because I've been avoiding getting angry and being unpleasant. Definitely the worst thing about last game.

why were you angry and unpleasant?

I think you already know the answer.

I was being scummed by multiple people because I claimed I could make reads independent of my alignment.

Which is the equivalent of scumming me because I like drinking tea.

how dare you prefering tea over coffee

*sips coffee austrianishly*

[Kakarroto]

Do you think that if we claim our results there is no room for theorizing and debate? Nevermind the influence of scum! I think this is much less of an Excel formula than you think it is.

I understand why you would not like “adhere or be anti-town.”

Let’s say we put aside the idea of a prescriptive targeting. Are you opposed to claiming your target and return in the morning?

No. I expect lots of people to do so. I might. I haven't really given it any thought yet.

The most important thing to consider, in my opinion, is that we can’t draw any meaningful clues from our returns without cross-referencing to other claimed returns. If we don’t claim, we basically throw away our powers. I suspect scum will not throw away theirs!

I think that if we don’t all claim, we make it harder for ALL town players to fully understand the meaning of their powers (consider getting a “town” return in isolation; who are you and what do you know?). Whoever does not claim actively deprives others of the fun of their role - and deprives themselves of the chance to learn valuable information and contribute to a shared Team Town victory!

Also, given that scum aren’t all vanilla goons, we are extra pooched if we don’t try to use our powers!

I contest that "we can't draw any meaningful clues from our returns". There is at least one role that immediately knows who they are and we didn't vote that role out.

[Kakarroto]

A question for all the good people…

Who thinks that scum don’t care about us mass claiming?

SCUM CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

SCUM DON’T CARE ABOUT TOWN MASS CLAIMING
1.
2.
3…

what is this question? That's from the same guy that criticised that my naming of the 'directed PR-actions'? OF COURSE mafia cares about a town claiming, in all cases. If it hurts them or if it's useful for them. They absolutely care, but do they love it or do they hate it? Well THAT is a question you DIDN'T ask.

You are very, very strange and I expect you to have a very agenda with all this phrasing and rephrasing. I don't see what brain sees in you that he has you as lock-town and you should be very closely scrutinized!

[Kakarroto]

would scum! chaq argue about this?

yes...?


shit...

no way town!heart ends on vanity. or disappears with 14 minutes and a teammate on the chopping blocj

why'd damo end on vanity?

scum team:

heart, sweet, froggy, neph?

I think there's some nice symmetry there and had good interactions between them all.

for what it's worth: it's good that there are more people off the voted out wagon than on it. It increases our chances.

[Kakarroto]

No. I expect lots of people to do so. I might. I haven't really given it any thought yet.

The most important thing to consider, in my opinion, is that we can’t draw any meaningful clues from our returns without cross-referencing to other claimed returns. If we don’t claim, we basically throw away our powers. I suspect scum will not throw away theirs!

I think that if we don’t all claim, we make it harder for ALL town players to fully understand the meaning of their powers (consider getting a “town” return in isolation; who are you and what do you know?). Whoever does not claim actively deprives others of the fun of their role - and deprives themselves of the chance to learn valuable information and contribute to a shared Team Town victory!

Also, given that scum aren’t all vanilla goons, we are extra pooched if we don’t try to use our powers!

Food town. Flavor town?

where? why?

[Kakarroto]

From the Maf Qt

Frog: Ive been in 137 mafia games and its perfectly normal to chaqa it up

Chaqa: Chaqa it up to what?

Bozo: We should conduct a survey among the mafia team to determine what extent one can actually chaqa it up.

Kak: It is possible to be someones roomate, work on a camaro and chaqa it up pretty heavily

Frog: In the 137 mafia games ive been in no one has ever repaired my power steering column quite like chaqa

[DISCLAIMER] I never worked on a camaro [/DISCLAIMER]

[Kakarroto]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main gimmick of this setup is that nobody knows what they are. I have a suspicion that this may have been to directly combat mech clears while still having a lot of silly roles. Also I just don't like D1 mechs discussion. Mostly that.

aren't there some maf-roles that 'eff' with PR roles? *looks* hmm, well, there is one kinda RB, and the rest are information gain roles. So ok, the potential isn't too great.

Still, one role which blocks and that could lead to a chain reaction so people don't get their supposed information (like, if the rb hit a role that scans a role, but that person was targeted by a role that returns what their target gets, and so on). If mafia knows what town generally plans, there are ways for them to manipulate.

We should be very cautious for any big plans that are complicated. I would prefer if everyone decides for themselves as that would also show us their thought process (at least partially), but if we decide to make a plan for all of us, then it should be one that is fool proof and doesn't let mafia much room for manipulations (well I doubt there will be none, but I haven't thought it through so maybe there is).

This really isn't a great post

yes, you said so (or at least hinted at it) before

anything special you want to point out about it?

[Kakarroto]

So currently Bob, Chaqa and lfischl are vocally opposed to trying to coordinate our roles to get information because it “isn’t fun.” I find that really strange… maybe I’m just a competitive person? Do most of you not care about trying to win? Why play?

They are a combination of obstinate morons and/or scum.

I'm not so sure about that. Need to think more.

At least I think it might be a mistake to post your messages right on D2. Maybe it's better to wait for EoN2.

There is another advantage if we do the system: saving the messages for later when people flip, so we aren't without information of their actions after a flip (if someone forgets to post them if they are targeted by vote or nk). But as I said, I need to think more about that.