Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[bozotheclown]

Right, so the only way to get useful information is to identify everyone's role, which of course also tells us who all the town players are. In my opinion, the fastest way to identify everyone's role is to have everyone target a different player N1 and have everyone claim their scan result, and I don't think the mafia can do a lot to obscure the results.

well this sounds simple enough.

hmm

I fear though that could give mafia very good intel, with the 'claim their scan result'. Like if they want to PR hunt, that's a pretty good sorting mechanism.

On the other hand, it wouldn't give mafia too much freedom for fake claiming stuff. Hmm. I'm not sure if it is worth the trade off. I want other people to say what they think about that.

@food
@worcej
@bunny
@jamie
@B3K3

I want you to think about that and give me your opinions and thoughts. Everyone else is welcomed too, but those five I want explicitly to answer it.

Well, lets add one more:

@Nephthys please also add your thoughts and opinion on that matter. Do you maybe have a better idea how we could proceed if there is an all encompassing plan for town?

The big problem is that our (best) PRs can’t clearly interpret their results in a vacuum because of the role interactions.

I don’t think we need to organize anything beforehand, I think everyone just needs to claim their target and their return at start of day.

In my opinion, having a fixed target for every player N1 would make things uncomfortable for the mafia.

[bozotheclown]

If Jamie and brain are BOTH scum I'll eat my hat.

In fact I'd be most surprised if either are scum and I will not be surprised if one of them is tonight's kill (I'm pleading with scum to do the community a favour).



@brain @Jamie only kidding with the plea to scum!

They were both mafia in the first game I played here (M30), and I don't think their interaction was that different.

[BunnyGo]

Yes and I don't know.

Are you both not sharing what you think the tell is so that you can continue to use it in future games if you are correct?

If I had a tell on anyone I would not reveal. I think that is reasonable.

I might reveal my tell in the GT. It’s stupid. And if accurate, I both want sweet to stop it AND am not sure he can.

Damo has seemed less bored as scum lately though. So…maybe I should stop revealing my tells.

[foodcoats]

well this sounds simple enough.

hmm

I fear though that could give mafia very good intel, with the 'claim their scan result'. Like if they want to PR hunt, that's a pretty good sorting mechanism.

On the other hand, it wouldn't give mafia too much freedom for fake claiming stuff. Hmm. I'm not sure if it is worth the trade off. I want other people to say what they think about that.

@food
@worcej
@bunny
@jamie
@B3K3

I want you to think about that and give me your opinions and thoughts. Everyone else is welcomed too, but those five I want explicitly to answer it.

Well, lets add one more:

@Nephthys please also add your thoughts and opinion on that matter. Do you maybe have a better idea how we could proceed if there is an all encompassing plan for town?

The big problem is that our (best) PRs can’t clearly interpret their results in a vacuum because of the role interactions.

I don’t think we need to organize anything beforehand, I think everyone just needs to claim their target and their return at start of day.

In my opinion, having a fixed target for every player N1 would make things uncomfortable for the mafia.

Yeah that’s a fair point. In fact it’s basically 100% pro town, given how compelled we are to work together to sort out our roles in the first place and how we don’t even know what our powers are to selfishly focus on doing something we personally think is “more pro town,” and 100% anti mafia because it boxes them almost completely.

I’d go for this.

[brainbomb]

If Jamie and brain are BOTH scum I'll eat my hat.

In fact I'd be most surprised if either are scum and I will not be surprised if one of them is tonight's kill (I'm pleading with scum to do the community a favour).



@brain @Jamie only kidding with the plea to scum!

They were both mafia in the first game I played here (M30), and I don't think their interaction was that different.

Expand on this line of thinking please.

[brainbomb]

I was considering that given how foodcoats is playing it would be smart to make him the fixed target for all night actions to gaurantee a doc save. but then we guarantee mafia gets off a kill on someone else and the doc doesnt get chance to learn they are the doc

[foodcoats]

You are afraid of PR hunting in a setup in which every player is a PR?

well, not every PR has the same power level. There are PR roles that are pretty useless (like the one that tells you who your target voted last day). So I thought that mafia would hunt for PR's with the highest power

Oh…just noting this for later. Really really don’t want to discuss mechs with 3.5 hours left in D1.

But this reminds me of the game where two people (or more) have partial information about assigned numbers. And take turns saying “I don’t know my number” until that’s enough information for someone to say “I know my number”

Okay, so let’s talk people. I think worcej scumslipped about daychat. I’ve PMed our esteemed GMs because it is not documented in the rules that there is daychat and daychat is normally a “special condition” to Mafia if I’m not mistaken. Assuming there is daychat, you said that I misinterpreted worcej’s statement about Frog being coached. Worcej has not had a chance to say what he “really meant,” and I’d like him to respond first, but he’s not here. What do you think Frog “being coached” could’ve meant?

[brainbomb]

If it is mechanically best play to remove all decision making from players hands then you would want to decide who to coordinate all powers on and what the goal of that is, is it to maybe get a guilty scan?

[lfischl]

The big problem is that our (best) PRs can’t clearly interpret their results in a vacuum because of the role interactions.

I don’t think we need to organize anything beforehand, I think everyone just needs to claim their target and their return at start of day.

In my opinion, having a fixed target for every player N1 would make things uncomfortable for the mafia.

Yeah that’s a fair point. In fact it’s basically 100% pro town, given how compelled we are to work together to sort out our roles in the first place and how we don’t even know what our powers are to selfishly focus on doing something we personally think is “more pro town,” and 100% anti mafia because it boxes them almost completely.

I’d go for this.

Can the mafia target other mafia with their roles?

[bozotheclown]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main gimmick of this setup is that nobody knows what they are. I have a suspicion that this may have been to directly combat mech clears while still having a lot of silly roles. Also I just don't like D1 mechs discussion. Mostly that.

Right, so the only way to get useful information is to identify everyone's role, which of course also tells us who all the town players are. In my opinion, the fastest way to identify everyone's role is to have everyone target a different player N1 and have everyone claim their scan result, and I don't think the mafia can do a lot to obscure the results.

well this sounds simple enough.

hmm

I fear though that could give mafia very good intel, with the 'claim their scan result'. Like if they want to PR hunt, that's a pretty good sorting mechanism.

On the other hand, it wouldn't give mafia too much freedom for fake claiming stuff. Hmm. I'm not sure if it is worth the trade off. I want other people to say what they think about that.

@food
@worcej
@bunny
@jamie
@B3K3

I want you to think about that and give me your opinions and thoughts. Everyone else is welcomed too, but those five I want explicitly to answer it.

Well, lets add one more:

@Nephthys please also add your thoughts and opinion on that matter. Do you maybe have a better idea how we could proceed if there is an all encompassing plan for town?

Yes, it is a trade-off, but we have a lot of PRs that are useless without claiming results to match players with roles. The mafia can obscure some of the result, but not all, or even the majority.

[brainbomb]

frogs bend over backward defense of chaqa is just weird anyway whether slip or not. the coaching comment can be explained by just being from some other forum where daychat is common maybe? frog hasnt really said where they play usually and if daychat is just normal.

I can tell you most forums have mafia day chat and it is quite commonplace.

that said I think all of that is irrelevant to just how bizarre the defense of chaqa actually was

[Kakarroto]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

[brainbomb]

worcej stances on frog are also a bit odd and he seems to have frog held in a very tier of towniness which im not sure anyone else agrees with.

[sweetandcool]

well, not every PR has the same power level. There are PR roles that are pretty useless (like the one that tells you who your target voted last day). So I thought that mafia would hunt for PR's with the highest power

Oh…just noting this for later. Really really don’t want to discuss mechs with 3.5 hours left in D1.

But this reminds me of the game where two people (or more) have partial information about assigned numbers. And take turns saying “I don’t know my number” until that’s enough information for someone to say “I know my number”

Okay, so let’s talk people. I think worcej scumslipped about daychat. I’ve PMed our esteemed GMs because it is not documented in the rules that there is daychat and daychat is normally a “special condition” to Mafia if I’m not mistaken. Assuming there is daychat, you said that I misinterpreted worcej’s statement about Frog being coached. Worcej has not had a chance to say what he “really meant,” and I’d like him to respond first, but he’s not here. What do you think Frog “being coached” could’ve meant?

You're making no sense. Worcej mentioned that Frog *couldn't* be coached, implying worcej believed there was no daychat for Mafia, which is what every reasonable player in this game would assume, given the rules explained in the setup

[brainbomb]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

I am sort of agreeing with this. I signed up to get to be a PR and use my actions in a creative way that might help town win. telling me what to do robs me of
my possibility of chance and making a brilliant decision.

[bozotheclown]

bozo is usually more forceful than this in their mech planning correct? I was expecting more because of this statement:

True

We can’t let this turn into a mech snooze fest lol

Hard agree. So don’t get bozo started.

I think this is a set up that probably can be broken mechanically so it feels like they have things left unsaid.

I also think the setup is likely broken, but it can't be solved D1. I have suggested something simple for N1, have everyone target the next surviving player on the master list, which I think gives us the most information going forward, while also serving to restrict the mafia's options.

[lfischl]

enforcing everyone to comply like making everyone go one down the list has another disadvantage, it sucks the fun out of the game. I was lucky enough to get town and now I know I'm PR, and I want to use it how I think is best, try to choose my target and live the best live, since I haven't gotten lucky in any games in a long, long while, regarding PR status (and the dancing ship doesn't really count, since I was being ignored anyway because everyone was that low power). The last game I can remember was the one I was gunsmith and gave the gun to a mafia, and bo_sox stole the show anyway.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Chaqa implied he is looking forward to the role madness and would probably not engage in the game as much as if he had free reign. Well that is, if he is town. Anyway, I'm not alone, I think, and others would probably engage more if they have the freedom to discover their role.

Maybe there is an optimal mechanical play for N1; I'm very doubtful it would be the optimal play if we consider fun into it.

I am sort of agreeing with this. I signed up to get to be a PR and use my actions in a creative way that might help town win. telling me what to do robs me of
my possibility of chance and making a brilliant decision.

I feel the same way, still want an answer to the mafia on mafia question though

[foodcoats]

frogs bend over backward defense of chaqa is just weird anyway whether slip or not. the coaching comment can be explained by just being from some other forum where daychat is common maybe? frog hasnt really said where they play usually and if daychat is just normal.

I can tell you most forums have mafia day chat and it is quite commonplace.

that said I think all of that is irrelevant to just how bizarre the defense of chaqa actually was

You’re misunderstanding… read this…

Because he’s figuring out player styles at an impressive level and is not possibly being coached at this point.

He’s firmly in my don’t kill D1 list due to the level of deeper reading I am seeing.

Interesting point about being coached. I don’t see that it was ever specified that there is daychat.

You get a scum point.

Is there a daychat?

That would change my read entirely.

Worcej assumes Frog COULD be coached in a way we would not see.

Got’em.

[bozotheclown]

Yes and I don't know.

Are you both not sharing what you think the tell is so that you can continue to use it in future games if you are correct?

If I had a tell on anyone I would not reveal. I think that is reasonable.

OK, but it is not that persuasive if we do not know what you think is a tell.

[brainbomb]

we could make a list of people most likely to be scum and have half the
players use their actions on that person

and the other half all use actions on top townies in hopes of doc save

otherwise any mass coordination would ensure mafia gets off a kill n1, and I kinda like the idea that they try to kill someone and it results in a luck save