Mafia 85: Return from Lockdown

[Frogsterking]

Do you think I town read you too quickly, nephthys?

I might have to read jamie, wok and fish games in order to move forward here

Who TF is "Wok" ??

Woc

[Jamiet99uk]

@brain

How would it affect your reads if you assumed fish!town?

eh, probably not a whole lot. the reasons why Jamie might be scum with lfischl are not relevant, as Jamie for whatever reason, -does scumread- lfischl but needed someone else to make his talking points for him. Not sure it means anything regardless of what lfischl flips at that point.

and then my scumread on chaqa is pretty much voided. foodcoats made me think that if lfischl is town, then bob is probably just opportunistic scum here and I can see that being a thing.

Hamilton would only look bad if lfischl flips mafia, otherwise ham statement is harmless.

My updated scumreads are : bozo, lsfischl, bob, and heart.

When did I say I scumread Lfischl?

Why have you stopped scumreading me?

[Jamiet99uk]

I might have to read jamie, wok and fish games in order to move forward here

Who TF is "Wok" ??

Woc

Oh, Worcej. I see.

[foodcoats]

@brain

How would it affect your reads if you assumed fish!town?

eh, probably not a whole lot. the reasons why Jamie might be scum with lfischl are not relevant, as Jamie for whatever reason, -does scumread- lfischl but needed someone else to make his talking points for him. Not sure it means anything regardless of what lfischl flips at that point.

and then my scumread on chaqa is pretty much voided. foodcoats made me think that if lfischl is town, then bob is probably just opportunistic scum here and I can see that being a thing.

Hamilton would only look bad if lfischl flips mafia, otherwise ham statement is harmless.

My updated scumreads are : bozo, lsfischl, bob, and heart.

Jamie also called you out on this, but Jamie has nowhere said he scumreads lfischl. Why are you spreading fake news?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

My reads (not ordered within colors):
babyspice666
BK3K
BobMcBob
bozotheclown
Brainbomb
BunnyGo
Chaqa
Damo666
Diplomacy&Warfare
foodcoats
Frogsterking
Hamilton Brian
heartthrob24909
Jamiet99uk
Kakarroto
lfischl
Nephthys
sweetandcool
Worcej

JustAGuyNamedWill

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

But for real, next day we should each vote the person next in line on the player list and then ask Monarch what the vote count is so we can figure out who the lobbyist targeted and thus we can determine that the person targeted is not the Lobbyist. It isn’t much information, but it should help us out a teensy bit.

How do you all feel about this?

[foodcoats]

I'm not sure if I said this yet: Foodoats you can go please go ahead and post a full reads list with explanations sometime over the next few hours.

Firstly, Will is my strongest scumread.

Will says:

Over the last 3 games, I’ve noticed that usually people who are scummy right out of the gate tend to just be unlucky and also victims of mafia manipulation. I don’t feel that lfishl should be suspicious just because of that.

For context, there were zero votes on lfischl at the time that Will made this statement. Slightly before Will's comment, brain was scrumreading lfischl, but was also scumreading Chaqa, and Bob was townreading lfischl. Why did Will hone in to defend lfischl here when he was really just being called scum in passing?

When I asked Will about this, his responses never addressed all my questions, which I find suspicious; but more importantly, they introduced further inconsistencies. Look at the below sequence, where he says he wanted to specifically intercede for lfischl, but then he immediately says lfischl was just a convenient example.

I don’t fine anything fishy (get it) about lfischl. But there was some discussion about fisch being scummy, and I wanted to make my input heard.

Lots of people have been scumread (e.g., you have scumread Neph), but you interceded specifically to say that lfischl should not be scumread early, and that he might be the victim of manipulation or bad luck.

There is nowhere else that you give reasons that lfischl is townie, or why he is not scummy.

Can you please explain in more detail why you think the scumreads of lfischl are not warranted?

The current topic was lfischl. I just used them as an example

This appears, to me, to be pure self-contradiction, and Will has simply ignored my questions where I tried to get him to clarify his position.

If Will is scum, I am not sure whether lfischl is a teammate he was defending, or a townie he decided to defend to appear good. But, due to how completely random Will's defense of lfischl was, I think it is slightly more likely that, if Will is scum, lfischl is also scum.

##VOTE JustAGuyNamedWill

[foodcoats]

I'm not sure if I said this yet: Foodoats you can go please go ahead and post a full reads list with explanations sometime over the next few hours.

My second scumread is BobMcBob. As I stated elsewhere, Bob...

twice townreads lfischl:

I feel like lfischl is being his usual overly serious and hedgy self here. Seems towny.

chaqa just felt like trying to hit a post quota and act oblivious

which when he is town he is usually pretty shameless
and will flat out tell you he hasnt read, plans not to read, doesnt care about day 1 or something to that effect.

and his posts seem strangely filler and formulaic without the shamelessness of his usual meta

and lfischl seems like someone who barely plays, rarely posts, and often coasts or just lurks. he is trying and is actually forcing some things out and it seems rushed and almost like he is just doing this to benefit his scum rand as opposed to actually solving

Okay, now I've embarassed myself even more with that crosspost lol. Chaqa's entrance did feel a little weird, but I had put that down to poor execution rather than scumminess.

Fisch I thought felt the need to respond to direct questions from frogster, which feels like something he would do. He hasn't pinged me as scum!fisch with his responses, and he definitely does lurk as scum.

questions brainbomb's scumread of lfischl:

my scumreads at this present time are
lfischl
frogster
chaqa
jamie

I think bob is pretty clearly town, and sweet is also very likely town. I have some uncomfortable feelings about townreading worcej-kak-neph but nothing they said really “bothers” me necessarily.

I wasnt that impressed by Jamie posts and that could definetely also be a scumread.


my top town is probably bob just because hes a completely ridiculous person who lacks social tact and yet is incredibly charismatic in his own way

do you have any somethingburgers to back up those scumreads? (mostly fisch and chaqa)

and then votes lfischl.

Contextually, there was no discussion of lfischl at the time Bob made his vote (a page or so back, HB had mentioned he tends to misread lfischl, which Bob did not refer to). Bob does not signal that his vote is a joke, either.

I think this is very scummy and that Bob needs to explain this extreme inconsistency.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

@foodcoats

I noticed that lfischl was under heat for early D1 (and I mean VERY early) mafiaesque posts. Because I have played in 3 games in which we have killed a townie because of this reason, I went to the defense.

Using last game as an example, I was much more inclined to vote Hamilton Brian because of his midday actions. We ended up killing Kak, which was town. Hamilton Brian ended up being mafia.

I did not want the EXACT same thing to happen again. So I came to his defense

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

@foodcoats

I noticed that lfischl was under heat for early D1 (and I mean VERY early) mafiaesque posts. Because I have played in 3 games in which we have killed a townie because of this reason, I went to the defense.

Using last game as an example, I was much more inclined to vote Hamilton Brian because of his midday actions. We ended up killing Kak, which was town. Hamilton Brian ended up being mafia.

I did not want the EXACT same thing to happen again. So I came to his defense

To clarify I have only played 3 games. I have witnessed this 100% of the time

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Did you all notice Bunny didn’t +1 the anti Will and Bob posts? J

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

@foodcoats

Your argument for me is inconsistent. You perceive my actions through a mafia lens. You say “If Will is scum, I am not sure whether lfischl is a teammate he was defending, or a townie he decided to defend to appear good”

These both imply that I am automatically scum

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Did you all notice Bunny didn’t +1 the anti Will and Bob posts? J

Ah nvm he did now

[foodcoats]

I'm not sure if I said this yet: Foodoats you can go please go ahead and post a full reads list with explanations sometime over the next few hours.

I have three town leans at the moment: brainbomb, Nephthys, and heartthrob.

I town lean brainbomb because of the battle with Jamie over his lfischl scumread (which is too long to quote). I think it is more likely that brainbomb is town who feels strongly about their read and that they have worked hard to contribute to town, and is angry that his reads are being questioned and his perceived value to town being undermined, than that brain is scum who is vigorously defending a scumread that has been questioned; there is simply so little value for scum to lean heavily into a single scum read so early in the game when there is a base 75% chance for town to miskill.

I townlean Nephthys and heartthrob less than brainbomb, for what I'd say is a pretty marginal clue: the interaction over Nephthys's mechanical framework.

This may be helpful for us to work who we are eventually

Scan returns
Success/Failure
- Doctor
- Curfew Enforcer
- HR
- Lobbyist
- ANYONE if RB etc

Town/Mafia
- Detective
- Internal affairs (Town only)
- ECO

Role
- PI

Delivered/Undelivered
- PDB
- Door darter

Targets target
- Ruber Driver
- Middle manager

Specific person
- Pollster

Anything
- Mail man

Pointing out that this list appears to only include town roles. Also, I'd argue that there isn't really a distinction between "targets target" and "specific person" since I think in both cases you just get a name back. My list is a little different from yours in at least one place but I'll hold off from posting it if people are gonna frown at a mechanics discussion this early

I very much dislike this.
1. If you read my previous post, I asked for clarification on the targets target
2. Why would I include mafia? This is for us to work out our own roles?
3. I dislike how conflict averse you are

I've pondered this quite a bit. It is obviously possible for scum to use a mechanical idea to appear to be contributing to the team without making meaningful reads. But I think the key element in this interaction is the debate over the missing mafia roles. I think it is just marginally more likely that a scum player would include the scum roles if they had made this list, as they might have a blindspot as to how that is less relevant to town. So Nephthys excluding these roles makes it look like his head is in a townie space.

I think heartthrob is more likely town from this interaction because of the "gotcha" over the missing mafia roles. I don't see someone in a mafia headspace saying "gotcha, you forgot there's scum in the game!" It seems more like heartthrob is looking for threads to pull on to see if Nephthys might be scum.

[foodcoats]

@foodcoats

Your argument for me is inconsistent. You perceive my actions through a mafia lens. You say “If Will is scum, I am not sure whether lfischl is a teammate he was defending, or a townie he decided to defend to appear good”

These both imply that I am automatically scum

Sorry if I wrote this is a confusing way.

First of all, I say "if" you are scum because I don't know for certain you are scum.

What I was trying to say is that, even if I were to know with absolute certainty your alignment, and it was mafia, I could not right now decide on lfischl's alignment.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

@foodcoats

Your argument for me is inconsistent. You perceive my actions through a mafia lens. You say “If Will is scum, I am not sure whether lfischl is a teammate he was defending, or a townie he decided to defend to appear good”

These both imply that I am automatically scum

Sorry if I wrote this is a confusing way.

First of all, I say "if" you are scum because I don't know for certain you are scum.

What I was trying to say is that, even if I were to know with absolute certainty your alignment, and it was mafia, I could not right now decide on lfischl's alignment.

I see. Thanks for clarifying

[Nephthys]

sure, I'm happy to answer. What exactly do you want to have elaborated?

How you felt about the pace of the game at gamestart

Oh that. Well it felt like not as many as usual were in the game. And, a bit hard to describe, like the posts didn't flow as it normally would, at least with so many participants. It was about an hour and a half between my posts and it was only like page three. It felt a bit like something is missing, something to fire up people, or something people can be controversial about. Maybe something to react to. So I did my endvote to see how peeps react to it.

That reminds me ##unend

still I think voting damo isn't too wrong here, he hasn't posted the whole day, don't like that.

Following on from my previous post, Kak seems intent on getting us as little info as possible...

[bozotheclown]

Actually, we want a somewhat strongish majority because of the Gerrymanderer.

I would prefer at least two or three wagons NOT on the dayvote

although what is this role you're talking of? I don't see it in the role list?

Ah, it looks like it got cut due to only 20 players.

Do I get townslip points for this? Give me townslip points for this.

It has potential as a fake town slip, because even if the role was in play, it would not matter for D1.

[foodcoats]

How you felt about the pace of the game at gamestart

Oh that. Well it felt like not as many as usual were in the game. And, a bit hard to describe, like the posts didn't flow as it normally would, at least with so many participants. It was about an hour and a half between my posts and it was only like page three. It felt a bit like something is missing, something to fire up people, or something people can be controversial about. Maybe something to react to. So I did my endvote to see how peeps react to it.

That reminds me ##unend

still I think voting damo isn't too wrong here, he hasn't posted the whole day, don't like that.

Following on from my previous post, Kak seems intent on getting us as little info as possible...

Do you think that Kakorroto mentioning he considered a No Kill, and removing his end vote, is scum indicative?

[bozotheclown]

Pointing out that this list appears to only include town roles. Also, I'd argue that there isn't really a distinction between "targets target" and "specific person" since I think in both cases you just get a name back. My list is a little different from yours in at least one place but I'll hold off from posting it if people are gonna frown at a mechanics discussion this early

I would like to see the list you are referring to.

Notes: I included mafia and town in my list. They are sorted by return type assuming no interference. Mafia is in red. Have to duck out again now (sorry) but will be around again later this phase

[Any]
- Email hacker
- Mail man

Alignment
- Police commish
- Detective
- Internal affairs
- Electoral C.O.

Delivered/undelivered
- paper delivery boy
- door darter

Player name
- dada driver
- ruber driver
- polster

Role
- corrupt cop
- private investigator
- middle manager

Success/failure
- Sicko
- doctor
- curfew enforcer
- human resources
- news host
- lobbyist

So after N1, we could sort everyone by the response they receive and identify the roleblockers and use N2 to sort the players obscured by the roleblockers and identify the mailman, then we should have a good idea what bins the mafia are in. With the additional information we get from the PR results, we should have some town clears and very narrow mafia pools.