War, what is it good for?

[Jamiet99uk]

If Ukraine doesn't want this, then it can stop.

Quite the bold statement there, Jamie.

I'm a disingenuous prick aren't I?

A statement I did not make.

[Jamiet99uk]

This didn't start with Hamas's recent attack (which I don't support). It started in 1948 with militant Zionists forcing around 50% of the Palestinian population out of their homes and off their land, under threat of murder.

To fail to acknowledge that is to be oblivious of the historic context of the entire situation.

[orathaic]

This didn't start with Hamas's recent attack (which I don't support). It started in 1948 with militant Zionists forcing around 50% of the Palestinian population out of their homes and off their land, under threat of murder.

To fail to acknowledge that is to be oblivious of the historic context of the entire situation.

That is slightly lacking in nuance.

It may have started in 1948, but it continued into the 90s when a peace agreement was struck, and then Israeli settlers continued to take what they had agreed was Palestinian land up to and including the present day - where until recently Israel has been divided (because the courts have said some of the West Bank settlements are illegal, and the government has attempted to remove the independence of the courts, and in response the IDF reservists threatened to go on strike... This was the current situation regarding the theft of land as of this month the day before Hamas attacked... And that isn't even mentioning the division of Jeresulam and the Israeli settlers kicking Palestinians from their homes when the agreement was that Jeresulam would be a shared city and the capital of the Palestinian state).

Ongoing violence from Israel, as you know well, isn't just something that started in '48.

[CaptainFritz28]

If Ukraine doesn't want this, then it can stop.

Quite the bold statement there, Jamie.

I'm a disingenuous prick aren't I? (Ooh yes, I do love me an Ad Hominem, well done with that Jamie. Once again, thanks for the display of how not to debate.)

A statement I did not make.

Just using your own tactics against you. I've seen you purposefully misquote for the purpose of displaying logical errors before, so it would be hypocritical of you to condemn my doing the same. Making you a hypocrite.

If you can't see logical parallels, I'm afraid you can't be helped. But I can try.

You claim that Israel should stop. What would that result in? Well, Hamas would continue flooding their borders with terrorists and slaughtering thousands of civilians. Hamas doesn't want peace.

You claim that Israel is in the wrong for something that they did (correction: that the British did) 75 years ago. If you want things to return to how they were in 1948, why don't we just cede the Eastern Bloc back to Russia to form a new Soviet Union?

You would never say that, of course. Why? Because Ukraine has since become a sovereign nation that can defend its borders, and thus has the right to defend it's borders, regardless of how the world was 75 years ago.

And yet, you claim that the sovereign nation of Israel should not defend its borders, because of something that happened 75 years ago.

Seems a bit like a double standard to me.

[Jamiet99uk]

People in the former Eastern Bloc have not been turned out of their homes and had their property stolen by the West, to my knowledge. I don't see the comparison.

[CaptainFritz28]

This didn't start with Hamas's recent attack (which I don't support). It started in 1948 with militant Zionists forcing around 50% of the Palestinian population out of their homes and off their land, under threat of murder.

To fail to acknowledge that is to be oblivious of the historic context of the entire situation.

That is slightly lacking in nuance.

It may have started in 1948, but it continued into the 90s when a peace agreement was struck, and then Israeli settlers continued to take what they had agreed was Palestinian land up to and including the present day - where until recently Israel has been divided (because the courts have said some of the West Bank settlements are illegal, and the government has attempted to remove the independence of the courts, and in response the IDF reservists threatened to go on strike... This was the current situation regarding the theft of land as of this month the day before Hamas attacked... And that isn't even mentioning the division of Jeresulam and the Israeli settlers kicking Palestinians from their homes when the agreement was that Jeresulam would be a shared city and the capital of the Palestinian state).

Ongoing violence from Israel, as you know well, isn't just something that started in '48.

Let's just really quickly forget the two wars that were begun by other nations against Israel that were the cause of Israel gaining more territory.

Also, I hate to be the grammar police, but due to autocorrect I notice that you spell Israel's capital as Jeresulam. I had not known there to be another spelling other than Jerusalem, but I may very well be wrong. Perhaps you would do me the favor of enlightening me?

[CaptainFritz28]

People in the former Eastern Bloc have not been turned out of their homes and had their property stolen by the West, to my knowledge. I don't see the comparison.

I'm not sure you understand which two things we are comparing.
Ukraine is defending itself against a Russian invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.
Israel is defending itself against a Hamas invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.

Ukraine, according to you, has the right to defend itself, but Israel does not. That is a double standard.

[CaptainFritz28]

My point is, what happened 75, 100, or 2000 years ago does not have a bearing on what is happening now. It is a totally different government, with totally different people. The people living in Israel right now are not "militant Zionists forcing the Palestinians off their land," they are people that have lived in Israel all their lives, and have had to defend their homes countless times against militant aggression by neighboring countries/governments. Hamas is a government that is attacking Israel. Israel has the right to defend themselves.

[Jamiet99uk]

People in the former Eastern Bloc have not been turned out of their homes and had their property stolen by the West, to my knowledge. I don't see the comparison.

I'm not sure you understand which two things we are comparing.
Ukraine is defending itself against a Russian invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.
Israel is defending itself against a Hamas invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.

Ukraine, according to you, has the right to defend itself, but Israel does not. That is a double standard.

I have never made any reference to Ukraine in the context of this discussion.

You are an extremely disingenuous liar who makes up strawman arguments and clearly, you have no interest in genuine discussion.

I'm not going to waste my time engaging with your Christian-fascist nonsense.

[Jamiet99uk]

My point is, what happened 75, 100, or 2000 years ago does not have a bearing on what is happening now. It is a totally different government, with totally different people. The people living in Israel right now are not "militant Zionists forcing the Palestinians off their land," they are people that have lived in Israel all their lives, and have had to defend their homes countless times against militant aggression by neighboring countries/governments. Hamas is a government that is attacking Israel. Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Militant Zionists are forcing Palestinians off their land today in the West Bank on a weekly basis, as I have documented in this thread.

Go away, troll.

[Jamiet99uk]

I've muted Captain Fritzl and won't be entertaining his bad faith zealotry any further.

[CaptainFritz28]

This didn't start with Hamas's recent attack (which I don't support). It started in 1948 with militant Zionists forcing around 50% of the Palestinian population out of their homes and off their land, under threat of murder.

To fail to acknowledge that is to be oblivious of the historic context of the entire situation.

This war did, very much, start with the recent attack. What happened 75 years ago in 1948 was not done by the people living in Israel now, nor are the people living in Gaza now the same people who were forced off their land by the British. Which is another bit of historical analysis you forgot, the British involvement, but that is besides the point. The fact of the matter is, the people in the conflict right now have only done what they have done, and should be held responsible for what they have done. Israel has defended itself. Hamas has attacked it. This is not self-defense for Palestine. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians any more than it cares for the people it beheads in Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself, just as Ukraine does, and anything said to the contrary is, as I have already said, a double standard.

[CaptainFritz28]

I've muted Captain Fritzl and won't be entertaining his bad faith zealotry any further.

We do love free speech around here, don't we. Very mature of you.

[CaptainFritz28]

People in the former Eastern Bloc have not been turned out of their homes and had their property stolen by the West, to my knowledge. I don't see the comparison.

I'm not sure you understand which two things we are comparing.
Ukraine is defending itself against a Russian invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.
Israel is defending itself against a Hamas invasion, which wishes for things to go back to the way they were in 1948.

Ukraine, according to you, has the right to defend itself, but Israel does not. That is a double standard.

I have never made any reference to Ukraine in the context of this discussion.

You are an extremely disingenuous liar who makes up strawman arguments and clearly, you have no interest in genuine discussion.

I'm not going to waste my time engaging with your Christian-fascist nonsense.

*Sigh*
Your logical analysis needs work. You did not make a reference to Ukraine, but your logic applies, and it is a direct comparison.

I love how you say that Oct saying everything you say is a lie is ridiculous, but then you turn around and do precisely the same thing. It is rather humorous. You have not addressed any of my point with the slightest of logic. My posts have been entirely aimed at genuine discussion, which I have not received. I have only had insults directed at me in return. If I guilty of being a troll, you are twice as accountable to the same crime.

You do realize that Christianity is fundamentally opposed to fascism, no? Or is that just one of those terms you throw around when you have nothing left to say?

[CaptainFritz28]

My point is, what happened 75, 100, or 2000 years ago does not have a bearing on what is happening now. It is a totally different government, with totally different people. The people living in Israel right now are not "militant Zionists forcing the Palestinians off their land," they are people that have lived in Israel all their lives, and have had to defend their homes countless times against militant aggression by neighboring countries/governments. Hamas is a government that is attacking Israel. Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Militant Zionists are forcing Palestinians off their land today in the West Bank on a weekly basis, as I have documented in this thread.

Go away, troll.

And that is what justifies Hamas murdering civilians, I see. Makes total sense.

As I have said before, condemning Israel is the same as supporting Hamas. If Israel does not defend themselves, Hamas slaughters more. The only way for Israel to stop Hamas is to either turn over and die or destroy Hamas.

[Jamiet99uk]

Simple question to Fritzl and Octavious:

If Israel totally wins and achieves everything they are currently pursuing:

1. What will be left of the Palestinian people? Where will they be able to live safely?

That's all.

[CaptainFritz28]

I believe they will be able to live safely in Israel, or at least they will be more safe under Israel than under Hamas. Israel, at the very least, has avenues from which to leave, should they choose to live elsewhere. Israel is not tyrannous, but even if you don't believe so they are certainly less corrupt than Hamas.

[Octavious]

Simple question to Fritzl and Octavious:

If Israel totally wins and achieves everything they are currently pursuing:

1. What will be left of the Palestinian people? Where will they be able to live safely?

That's all.

In what sense is it a simple question? You don't even know what they are pursuing, unless you are referring to your antisemitic fantasy about Isreal sending all Gazans to mass graves. But if that is the case you have answered your own question. Or are you finally admitting that it was a lie after all?

[Octavious]

If Israel doesn't want this, then it can stop.

No, it can't.

Jamie, why do you think that the government of Gaza ordered the attack on Israel? Why do you think it was such an abhorrent attack? Are you under the impression they just got bored one day? Perhaps you think Hamas are just really stupid and had no idea what would happen?

Are you really just going down your comfortable route of Israel* bashing without making even the most basic attempt at understanding what's going on and what the motivations are?

This is a very good question and I must admit I do not have a great degree of certainty as to what the answer is.

I would put it down to a number of factors, and I am prepared to be wrong, as I am speculating.

1. Hamas feeling the need to react to constant and increasing Israeli aggression, further incursions onto Palestinian land, an increasingly militant and murderous Ultra-Zionist settler community, etc.

2. Support / involvement / encouragement from Iran (as mentioned in this thread already, and which I do agree is a factor).

3. Hamas seeking to assert that it was still a meaningful force.

4. A hope that Israel would react disproportionately, altering international perceptions and turning people across the world against Israel, to generate sympathy for the Palestinian cause.

5. Bloody-minded extreme religious bigotry and a religious ideology which encourages martyrdom (i.e. Hamas fighters genuinely believing that their version of the Sky Wizard will reward them after they die).

I would like to take this opportunity to repeat the statement I have made several times, that I do not support Hamas and I do not endorse their approach.

Jamie, I have made no secret of what I think of your comments so far on this issue, and I believe them to have a clear, harmful, and direct impact on Jewish people. But at no stage have I considered you a Hamas fan boy and the idea of you endorsing their approach is unthinkable. There is no need to make any statements about you not endorsing the beheading of babies, in much the same way that there should be no need for me to say I'm not a supporter of ethnic cleansing.

Hamas clearly have some deeply evil members who are cruel for the fun of it, but this sort of scum rarely rises to the top. Their leaders will be highly intelligent men who have thought things through carefully. Still the sort of bastards who will put such actions in motion, but for a purpose other than a warped enjoyment.

No, the immense cruelty and scale of the attack is very deliberate, and a departure from their usual way of doing things. It was calculated to disgust and anger the Israeli population, to burn the bridge of peace negotiations, and to force a major military response. There is no realistic alternative scenario without making ludicrous assumptions about Hamas being idiots or pantomime villains.

Ora makes a valiant attempt at creating a narrative of a botched attempt at capturing hostages in preparation for an exchange, but this doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly it assumes Hamas are ridiculously inept, which is in stark contrast to the evidence of the attack. The timing, the scale, the execution, and keeping it hidden from one of the world's most capable intelligence networks, is clear evidence of a remarkable degree of sophistication from Hamas military planning. It also ignores the evidence of history that has seen Isreal exchange vast numbers of prisoners for tiny numbers of Israeli hostages (the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange sticks firmly in the mind). Hamas simply didn't need to round up 100s of hostages to achieve such a goal.

To address points 1 and 3, I'm sure these are factors but there's nothing new about them and nothing to suggest that they would cause Hamas to make such a departure from their usual way of doing things.

Point 2 no doubt played a part. How big a part remains to be seen and it is remarkable how little it's been talked about in recent weeks. My guess is that the US is putting a huge amount of pressure on Israel to avoid actions that could escalate to a wider conflict... Hopefully this is a long-term goal rather than an exercise in buying time in order to better prepare.

As for point 4, yes. Hamas new exactly what Israel's response would have to be. But it can't just be a PR game. Hamas get all the PR they need by encouraging hot headed youngsters to throw rocks at soldiers and get themselves killed, and this is achieved without putting the leadership at any risk. Palestinians aren't lacking in sympathy.

5 is assuming that Hamas are idiots again. There are plenty of idiots in Hamas, but the leadership has shown no signs of enthusiasm for a national version of suicide by cop.

[Jamiet99uk]

Simple question to Fritzl and Octavious:

If Israel totally wins and achieves everything they are currently pursuing:

1. What will be left of the Palestinian people? Where will they be able to live safely?

That's all.

In what sense is it a simple question? You don't even know what they are pursuing, unless you are referring to your antisemitic fantasy about Isreal sending all Gazans to mass graves. But if that is the case you have answered your own question. Or are you finally admitting that it was a lie after all?

I am asking you what you think the outcome will be, for the Palestinian people, if Israel achieves its aims.