War, what is it good for?

[orathaic]

Not wishing to give the impression that I don't trust your word on this, but I don't trust your word on this. You have shown yourself all too eager to lie in order to stoke hatred against Isreal and Jews. But even if true, it hardly changes anything

It doesn't change things. But it does beg the question of whether you condemn the actions of Israelis settling illegal settlements (or indeed the Israeli government which was attempting to push through changes to their court system because the court were agreeing that (at least some of) the illegal settlements were illegal -this was a big deal, with IDF reservist threatening a strike (because undermining the courts is considered undemocratic).

It also forces you to answer whether you support equally the rights of all people to defend themselves? Israel is not defending anyone by bombing Gaza, and Hamas was not defending anyone when it murdered wholesale who ever they could get their hands on. I condemn both.

Likewise, we could ask where you draw the line? Should Palestinians in Gaza allow the IDF to invade their home or will they be correct to defend themselves? Are Palestinians in the West Bank right to defend themselves against heavily armed settlers illegally occupying their land? What is the appropriate defence?

[Jamiet99uk]

Not wishing to give the impression that I don't trust your word on this, but I don't trust your word on this. You have shown yourself all too eager to lie in order to stoke hatred against Isreal and Jews. But even if true, it hardly changes anything.

This is an unpleasant personal attack.

I do not hate Jewish people and at no point have I made any statements indicating hatred of Jews, not encouraging such.

The present Government of Israel are violent fascists and it is not anti-semitic to say that.

As to the event I was talking about, here is one news story, from the Associated Press, which I hope you consider a relatively neutral source:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pales ... 5ce54e727b

As you will see from the article, a mob of extremist Israeli settlers went into a Palestinian village and started setting fire to cars. When Palestinians came out of their homes to confront them, the Israeli settlers opened fire. Qusai Matan, a 19-year old Palestinian civilian, was shot dead by one of the settlers, Elisha Yared. Itamar Ben-Gvir, currently Israel's Minister for National Security, has described Yared, a murderer, as a "hero", as noted in the AP article.

Two days ago another Israeli settler shot and killed a Palestinian man who was peacefully harvesting olives:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... -104457880

On 11th October militant Israeli settlers Israeli entered the West Bank village of Qusra and murdered three civilians. The following day, Israeli settlers then attacked the funeral procession for these murder victims, murdering two more people. All of this reported by the BBC here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

I am not making these things up.

So I ask you again, do these Palestinian civilians have the right to defend themselves? What should they do? Israel will not protect them; Israeli Government Ministers think it is heroic to murder them.

[Octavious]

This is an unpleasant personal attack.

Yes, and well deserved

I do not hate Jewish people and at no point have I made any statements indicating hatred of Jews, not encouraging such.

You have told blatant and disgusting lies about the Israelis wanting to put all Gazans in mass graves. You have refused on several occasions to retract this vile statement. Lies such as this are being repeated by people trying to maximise hatred to Isreal and Jews across the world, and it is people believing such lies that is directly contributing to a shocking rise in antisemitic attacks across the board. You are on the side of the Nazis, Jamie. You are lying to generate hatred. The sooner you punch yourself in the fucking face the better.

[Jamiet99uk]

This is an unpleasant personal attack.

Yes, and well deserved

I do not hate Jewish people and at no point have I made any statements indicating hatred of Jews, not encouraging such.

You have told blatant and disgusting lies about the Israelis wanting to put all Gazans in mass graves. You have refused on several occasions to retract this vile statement. Lies such as this are being repeated by people trying to maximise hatred to Isreal and Jews across the world, and it is people believing such lies that is directly contributing to a shocking rise in antisemitic attacks across the board. You are on the side of the Nazis, Jamie. You are lying to generate hatred. The sooner you punch yourself in the fucking face the better.

I am on the side of humanity and I simply want the atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank to stop.

I have just provided you with evidence of an Israeli Government Minister saying it is heroic for Israeli settlers to shoot Palestinian civilians.

I am surprised at you for using the term "Nazi" but I assure you that if you are looking for a fascist actor in this hideous drama you will find it in the form of the Israel Government.

You are the person who said you support ethnic cleansing. Call me a Nazi? Go fuck yourself.

[Octavious]

But it does beg the question of whether you condemn the actions of Israelis settling illegal settlements

I have done so

It also forces you to answer whether you support equally the rights of all people to defend themselves?

I'm not entirely sure how it forces any such thing, or why you think anything needs to be forced at all... I support the rights of all people to take reasonable action to defend themselves. You seem to presenting this as a "gotcha" moment when to me it all seems self evident truth.

Israel is not defending anyone by bombing Gaza, and Hamas was not defending anyone when it murdered wholesale who ever they could get their hands on. I condemn both.

Israel is defending her citizens by attacking the fascist neighbour that declared war on her. Israel has very little choice in the matter. They have to attack because leaving Hamas undefeated is not a viable position for them to adopt, and they have to bomb because if they send troops in without it they'd be cut to ribbons.

Hamas was not defending anyone, no, it was starting a war. The atrocities were designed to maximise Isreali anger and horror and force them to fight, and by doing so Hamas choose the battlefield. They have been preparing for this war for years, and they have prepared well. From a purely military point of view it is a masterstroke. From a human point of view they have shown a sickening enthusiasm for cruelty both against the Israelis and the people of Gaza who they are sacrificing to achieve their goals. They are evil, pure and simple

Likewise, we could ask where you draw the line?

I don't recall you showing any enthusiasm for line drawing. Why are you demanding it from anyone else? And why does it matter where either of us would draw such lines?

[Octavious]

I am on the side of humanity and I simply want the atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank to stop.

So why spread hatred via lies?

I have just provided you with evidence of an Israeli Government Minister saying it is heroic for Israeli settlers to shoot Palestinian civilians.

I couldn't care less what you provide. My faith in your evidence is non existent. Are there members of the Israelis government who are bastards? Probably. But I wouldn't trust you to identify them.

You are the person who said you support ethnic cleansing. Call me a Nazi? Go fuck yourself.

And you roll out your favourite lie of the month. A sure sign you have given up trying to argue the case. But seriously, stop spreading hatred. I suspect that you will look back on this at some point in the future and be thoroughly ashamed.

[Jamiet99uk]

Frankly, however, my personal view is that the removal of all people from Gaza will be beneficial to Isreal and massively beneficial to the people of Gaza, and I don't give a damn about whether or not this solution would fall under the category of ethnic cleansing. It's a damned shame that the ethnic cleansing label prevents this from being realistically contemplated. The ethnic cleansing of the people from Nagorno-Karabakh to Armenia (which ora will no doubt ignore because they're "white-ish" and this flies in the face of his "the West acts for whites but not browns" narrative) is on the one hand a tragedy, and on the other hand the only realistic long term solution for a sustainable peace in the region

[Jamiet99uk]

^ Looks like a guy supporting ethnic cleansing to me.

[Jamiet99uk]

I have just provided you with evidence of an Israeli Government Minister saying it is heroic for Israeli settlers to shoot Palestinian civilians.

I couldn't care less what you provide. My faith in your evidence is non existent. Are there members of the Israelis government who are bastards? Probably. But I

Thank you for stating that you are not interested in evidence.

[Jamiet99uk]

Today Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the UN's calls for a ceasefire and said "this is a time for war".

But let's be realistic. It is a plain falsehood to call this a war. It isn't even accurate to call it a conflict, which would imply a level of equality between the two sides.

It is an occupation, and should be talked about it in those terms. Not on the terms of the oppressor, the occupier. To do that is to neglect history. What we are seeing now began in 1948.

[Octavious]

^ Looks like a guy supporting ethnic cleansing to me.

Then you are either a liar or really quite stupid.

Thank you for stating that you are not interested in evidence.

You're really doubling down on this liar or stupid thing...

Today Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the UN's calls for a ceasefire and said "this is a time for war".

But let's be realistic. It is a plain falsehood to call this a war. It isn't even accurate to call it a conflict, which would imply a level of equality between the two sides.

It is an occupation, and should be talked about it in those terms. Not on the terms of the oppressor, the occupier. To do that is to neglect history. What we are seeing now began in 1948.

It is a war and it is a war which Hamas deliberately started because they wanted a war. There is no equality between the two sides. Hamas wants this, Isreal doesn't.

[Jamiet99uk]

If Israel doesn't want this, then it can stop.

[Jamiet99uk]

Thank you for stating that you are not interested in evidence.

You're really doubling down on this liar or stupid thing...

A link to a news story from the BBC or the Associated Press is a story from the BBC or the Associated Press whether it is posted to the forum by me, by Donald Trump, by Sir Ed Davey, or by anyone else. You have now descended into decrying anything I post as a "lie" even where I provide verifiable evidence from credible mainstream sources. Therefore you are not interested in evidence.

What I am saying about the behaviour of people on the Israeli side is accurate, to a much better standard of "the general direction of the truth" which used to satisfy you when David Cameron lied in Parliament.

[Octavious]

If Israel doesn't want this, then it can stop.

No, it can't.

Jamie, why do you think that the government of Gaza ordered the attack on Israel? Why do you think it was such an abhorrent attack? Are you under the impression they just got bored one day? Perhaps you think Hamas are just really stupid and had no idea what would happen?

Are you really just going down your comfortable route of Isreal bashing without making even the most basic attempt at understanding what's going on and what the motivations are?

[Jamiet99uk]

If Israel doesn't want this, then it can stop.

No, it can't.

Jamie, why do you think that the government of Gaza ordered the attack on Israel? Why do you think it was such an abhorrent attack? Are you under the impression they just got bored one day? Perhaps you think Hamas are just really stupid and had no idea what would happen?

Are you really just going down your comfortable route of Israel* bashing without making even the most basic attempt at understanding what's going on and what the motivations are?

This is a very good question and I must admit I do not have a great degree of certainty as to what the answer is.

I would put it down to a number of factors, and I am prepared to be wrong, as I am speculating.

1. Hamas feeling the need to react to constant and increasing Israeli aggression, further incursions onto Palestinian land, an increasingly militant and murderous Ultra-Zionist settler community, etc.

2. Support / involvement / encouragement from Iran (as mentioned in this thread already, and which I do agree is a factor).

3. Hamas seeking to assert that it was still a meaningful force.

4. A hope that Israel would react disproportionately, altering international perceptions and turning people across the world against Israel, to generate sympathy for the Palestinian cause.

5. Bloody-minded extreme religious bigotry and a religious ideology which encourages martyrdom (i.e. Hamas fighters genuinely believing that their version of the Sky Wizard will reward them after they die).

I would like to take this opportunity to repeat the statement I have made several times, that I do not support Hamas and I do not endorse their approach.

[orathaic]

Israel is defending her citizens by attacking the fascist neighbour that declared war on her. Israel has very little choice in the matter. They have to attack because leaving Hamas undefeated is not a viable position for them to adopt, and they have to bomb because if they send troops in without it they'd be cut to ribbons.

Hamas can make the very same claims, they have to defend the Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza from continued abuses of Israel, if they don't fight nobody else is going to do it for them. The Israeli government (past and present) have made it clear they have no interest in the two state solution or respecting the agreed international borders.

West Bank settlements are evidence enough of that, Jeresulam is likewise.

I disagree with their tactics, and do not believe they are justified. But I also don't believe Israel is justified in murdering Palestinian children.

This isn't war, it is a massacre. The narrative i am seeing suggests that Hamas wanted an invasion (so they could pick the IDF apart in building to building fighting which evens out some of their disadvantages) but I am inclined to disbelieve this.

My suspicion is that Hamas meant to take hostages, but once they had sent militants in and Israeli military respond took too long to respond the militants in the ground killed every Israeli they could find.

Which is not surprising... But I assume the plan was to exchange hostages for political prisoners held by Israel, which is now impossible. So the narrative doesn't make sense to me.

[CaptainFritz28]

I find it sad that those condemning Israel seem to forget that by doing so they support Hamas. Hamas has made clear that their purpose is NOT the creation of a Palestinian state (although they would like that) or equal rights for Palestinians. It is to eradicate the Jews from the face of the Earth.

Therefore, they will continue to do so whether Israel is a nation or not. They will continue to do so whether Israel ceases their invasion of Gaza or not. They will continue to do so whether Israel gives up the West Bank or not.

Hamas is not acting in self-defense. The reason this war began was not an Israeli invasion. It was years of thousands upon thousands of missiles fired by Hamas, not at military or governmental targets, but at civilians. If Hamas was truly trying to free Palestinians from oppression, they would not be indiscriminately murdering innocent civilians.

Israel, on the other hand, IS acting in self-defense. They have not targeted civilians, and when their attacks do kill innocents, it is because Hamas purposefully places themselves where Israel must do so to take them out. Hamas does not care about Palestinians, or else they would not be putting Palestinians in harms way by launching missiles from neighborhoods and hospitals.

To condemn Israel is to support Hamas. As Orathaic said, this is not a war, it is a massacre. It is terrorists led by religious conviction to exterminate Jews doing whatever is necessary to murder Jews, whether they be innocent or militant. Thus, the only way for Israel to stop them from murdering without end is to kill them. A ceasefire from Israel will not stop Hamas. A surrender from Israel will not stop Hamas. The disbandment of the Israeli state will not stop Hamas. Hamas will only be stopped by two outcomes: 1) the death of every Jew, or 2) the death of Hamas.

[CaptainFritz28]

Israel is defending her citizens by attacking the fascist neighbour that declared war on her. Israel has very little choice in the matter. They have to attack because leaving Hamas undefeated is not a viable position for them to adopt, and they have to bomb because if they send troops in without it they'd be cut to ribbons.

Hamas can make the very same claims, they have to defend the Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza from continued abuses of Israel, if they don't fight nobody else is going to do it for them. The Israeli government (past and present) have made it clear they have no interest in the two state solution or respecting the agreed international borders.

West Bank settlements are evidence enough of that, Jeresulam is likewise.

I disagree with their tactics, and do not believe they are justified. But I also don't believe Israel is justified in murdering Palestinian children.

This isn't war, it is a massacre. The narrative i am seeing suggests that Hamas wanted an invasion (so they could pick the IDF apart in building to building fighting which evens out some of their disadvantages) but I am inclined to disbelieve this.

My suspicion is that Hamas meant to take hostages, but once they had sent militants in and Israeli military respond took too long to respond the militants in the ground killed every Israeli they could find.

Which is not surprising... But I assume the plan was to exchange hostages for political prisoners held by Israel, which is now impossible. So the narrative doesn't make sense to me.

Gaza has been a free state for years now. If Israel was oppressing Gaza, Hamas would never have been able to take over the government of Gaza, because there would be no government of Gaza. The reason Israel is not respecting the internationally agreed upon borders is because the people on the other side of those borders are trying to kill them. The narrative you are seeing is wrong. Hamas wants an invasion, yes, but not to pick apart the IDF. They want an invasion to kill as many Jews as possible, because they are terrorists. Also, what does your suspicion have anything to do with anything? First of all, it doesn't make any sense, and second, it is inconsistent with what Hamas has said are their goals.

You quite literally just admitted that your view of this is all base upon an assumption. The narrative doesn't make sense to you not because of its faults, of which it has some, but because of your own faulty assumptions.

[CaptainFritz28]

Correction: Hamas was democraticly elected. They were not recognised as the legitimate rulers of Palestine by the international community (which has called them terrorists) the same community which refuses to acknowledge Israeli actions as state directed terrorism.

If you count murdering political opponents democratic election, then sure. Regardless,that was 2006. Gaza is not democratic. It's legislature was disbanded the following year by Hamas, and an election has not been held since. 17 years with no democracy. This is not democratic freedom, it is tyranny. Would you say Putin is a tyrant? If so, why? Because he hasn't held fair elections for the last twenty years, and because his policy disregards the lives of his people? Hamas is doing the same.

The official position of many in the West is the Israel has a right to defend itself. And it only stands to reason that Hamas has the same right to defend Palestinians.

Defend Palestinians? From what? Have you forgotten already that the cause of this war was an invasion by Hamas into Israel, as well as thousands of missiles launched upon civilians? This has nothing to do with self defense for Palestinians. Hamas purposefully puts themselves in places where they know civilians will be killed. They don't care about the people in Gaza.

But given that I (and I suspect Jamie) entirely disagree with the methods employed by the Israeli government in its "defence", it extend equally that we don't support the rather horrific methods which Hamas employed in their recent attacks. It is not surprising - given the power imbalances - that Hamas engages in attacks on softer targets (civilians) and this is compeltely unacceptable; but Israel indiscriminately kills civilians too, and just blames Hamas for 'using human shields' (because again, there is a huge power imbalance).

Civilians are not "softer targets." Civilians are not be targets at all. The fact that you even consider them such is horrifying. I don't care what power imbalance there is, there is never ANY justification for targeting civilians or using them as human shields. You say this is unacceptable, and yet you turn around and say it is to be expected, and thus it isn't too bad. You hypocrite.

Yes, Israel has killed civilians. Indiscriminately? No. Israel aims for militants, and Hamas puts their militants in places where civilians will be killed. The ONLY way Israel can fight Hamas will necessarily include killing civilians, but they try to mitigate that as much as possible. Hamas tries to make it so that Israel kills the most amount of civilians as possible. Hamas does not target military facilities that happen to be in the middle of neighborhoods, why? Because Israel doesn't put them there! Because Israel actually cares about their people! Hamas only wishes to kill as many people as possible, be they belligerent or civilian.

This is not a defence of Hamas, their terrorism is repulsive and should be bright to an end. The same applies to the IDF, and peace negotiations are the only way which it is possible to achieve both. But the current Israeli government has been pushing to make peace impossible by (among other things) pushing the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank and in Jeresulam.

On one point we agree; terrorism must be brought to an end. Your only source for Israel being terrorists is their killing civilians, and yet they do not target civilians. Hamas places their assets in places with the purpose of including the deaths of civilians. Israel, thus, has two options: allow Hamas to continue their murderous terrorism, or destroy Hamas, which will unfortunately include civilian deaths.

Peace negotiations don't work. Why? Because peace is achieved, then out of nowhere Hamas unleashes a barrage of missiles into Israel. Hamas does not want peace, and Hamas holds power in Gaza. For as long as that is the case, there will never be peace. Israel knows this, and thus they must once and for all end the tyrannical reign of Hamas. The Israeli government does not wish for Palestinians to be killed, and they have done everything possible to mitigate that.

The only way to end the terrorism of Hamas is the destruction of Hamas, because Hamas will not stop until either they or the Jews are entirely killed.

Is it a surprise to you that Hamas responds?

It should be a surprise to no one that a terrorist organization with the goals of killing all Jews tries to carry out their goals, with no regard for human life either for Israelis or Palestinians.
But this is not a response. This is not Hamas reacting. Hamas struck first, and has struck first every time. If Hamas is responding, Putin is acting in self-defense. Neither of those are true.

Hamas does not care who gets killed. They don't care if the deaths are civilian or military, Palestinian or Israeli. All they care about is the extermination of the Jews. The only way they will stop is if they succeed in this goal or if they are killed.

[CaptainFritz28]

If Ukraine doesn't want this, then it can stop.

Quite the bold statement there, Jamie.