Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[Ezio]

Scum didn't know snowy was pretty, he was just cleared by the voting.

[Ezio]

I'm voting balki because he looks most suspicious from d1. Starting on Jamiet and then switching off of him onto the counterwagon when it mattered the most is as scummy as scummy can be.

[brainbomb]

It's slow going, this is what I've got so far...
P3, 64/66. Opposes lurkers. But didn’t get on board with the Jamiet/Foxcastle Lynch-a-Lurk program...

Oh gosh? RHK didnt follow a confirmed scum. Are you seriously arguing you are townier than RHK because you tried to push lurkers alongside a scum

P4. Tries to turn Tom’s argument back on him, about being a cinephile as an excuse to lurk. That seems weak. Is DRHK that weak on reasonsing?

Yes, yes he is

P8. Notes that if mentoring is scummy, maniac did it on page 5, but this seems information to me. Does not note that on P7 Jamiet and Maniac (town clear) were also handing out info for the benefit of new players. Even more suspect that Maniac is doing it very generally, while Jamiet was doing it specifically for Rjm...

maniac does that every game. Always. Regardless of align. But your argument boils down to RHK selectively was triggered by people advising new players. Common symptom of town inconsistency, pretty minor especially if he just happened to not recognize both as being pocketing or buddying efforts


P11. Notes Rjm’s scummy post against BB in defense of Mean.
so did half the game

P14. Maniac’s vote of DemonRHK is authentic, at least.
this is not evidence at all?

P20 (388). Starts to come off Rjm scumread.
Wants to address scum votes against himself, but doesn’t really do much to refute them or crtique them?
which is generally good. Means hes not overly defensive

P24. Tries to connect Jamie being scummy to Brain, as a scum team. Does DRHK see the writing on the wall for Jamiet and start trying to bus him and Brain? Or is town-DRHK just picking up on Jamie being scummy?

rhk with theories and ideas is town rhk

[Tom Bombadil]

@Ezio - Normally I would agree - but he was voting to save himself. Thus I see his self preservation vote as non-alignment indicative. You still find it scummy?

[Ezio]

And the inverse was true for Snowy. Look at the vote counts:
When balki moved off of Jamiet onto ND the vote was tied, and he made it 6-4 with ND ahead. Knowing Jamiet is scum makes this look super scummy.
Snowy switched form ND to Jamiet when it was 7-5 to bring it to 6-6 tie. Super towny.
I'm most suspicious of Yav.
I'm townclearing rdriver, reedreeder, and ND until I'm given serious evidence they can't be town.
I'm townreading RHK for being on that wagon as well, but his role was much less serious than the others I've mentioned.

[Foxcastle]

I'm noting things I want to think about as I see them. Sorry I haven't gone into full Brainbomb conspiracy mode.

It's slow going, this is what I've got so far...
P3, 64/66. Opposes lurkers. But didn’t get on board with the Jamiet/Foxcastle Lynch-a-Lurk program...

Oh gosh? RHK didnt follow a confirmed scum. Are you seriously arguing you are townier than RHK because you tried to push lurkers alongside a scum

I am not arguing anything on me. I'm arguing that I find it odd that Balki and RHK whined about lurkers, but didn't take an opportunity to apply pressure votes. Maybe RHK didn't want to be associated with Jamiet, is the point.

[Ezio]

@Tom
Yes.

[brainbomb]

I'm noting things I want to think about as I see them. Sorry I haven't gone into full Brainbomb conspiracy mode.

It's slow going, this is what I've got so far...
P3, 64/66. Opposes lurkers. But didn’t get on board with the Jamiet/Foxcastle Lynch-a-Lurk program...

Oh gosh? RHK didnt follow a confirmed scum. Are you seriously arguing you are townier than RHK because you tried to push lurkers alongside a scum

I am not arguing anything on me. I'm arguing that I find it odd that Balki and RHK whined about lurkers, but didn't take an opportunity to apply pressure votes. Maybe RHK didn't want to be associated with Jamiet, is the point.

Thats a really weak case. And you continue to find flimsy reasons why people are scum just because theyre viable lynches. You have pretty much no chance of convincing me. The argument for why RHK was scum was his day 1 where he flailed around bitching about ezio and tom voting him, oonly to end up lynching a townread he had [jamie]

[Foxcastle]

Obviously it's a weak case, if I had a stronger case it wouldn't be taking me so long to put it together.

[brainbomb]

Yea well that was a fail.

Lynch tom with me. Im pretty sure if theres a case on RHK its that Tom bussed RHK because tom is an OP scum role. Toms play is exclusively scum aligned so far.

[Tom Bombadil]

@brain: Are you going to ever say why you are so confident Mean is town?

I just reread again and what I see is someone who throws shade at Jamie without ever voting him. Then when he's actually in danger (30 minutes left) starts saying things like:

"You [Balki] push jamie, when everyone, even you, can agree he isn't a good lynch today. He's done nothing but be an idiot, pushing yav a bit for being confused, and then pushing lurkers. Dumb does not equal scum. He is an easy vote to push, but not a good one in the slightest."

When earlier she had said:

"honestly just makes me think fox and jamiet are trying to get the easiest lynch they can, which is definitely mafia-like."

Seems like a rapid turnaround on a read. I can get not thinking it was the best lynch target, but not a good one in the slightest is pretty strong language from someone who not long earlier said he was acting mafialike

[thamrick]

Scum could have roleblocked Snowy if they used the Hooker to do the killing. They will have the same chance of being seen by the watcher and case Snowy was saved he will still be roleblocked. I just can't see how they discovered Snowy was a PR in this case.

What do you mean "used the Hooker to do the killing." The Hooker has to specifically choose who to roleblock. I assume that the Hooker wouldn't get two roleblocks in one night by being the person performing the NK. So I agree. A possible explanation is that mafia RB'd and NK'd Snowy, but is that a plausible explanation?

I talked about this scenario re: BB's GS claim, but it applies here too. For mafia to have RB'd Snowy, they'd believe he was PR. If they thought he was:

Oracle - it wouldn't matter if they RB'd him, so they wouldn't waste it

Cop - it wouldn't matter if they RB'd him because he'd be dead (unless they also counted on the nurse saving him, which then why NK him in the first place or RB either because nurse would RB)

Watcher - roughly the same argument as Cop. He wouldn't be able to report his findings

Nurse - they wouldn't be able to prevent the Nurse's RB, and the Nurse isn't able to save themself.

Gunsmith - this is the only one that makes even a little sense. If they thought Snowy was GS, they could have NK'd and RB'd him to prevent a gun from getting out, but would they even want to do that? The odds are better that a townie would shoot a townie and Snowy might have even given a gun to mafia. I still find it unlikely that they'd RB and NK Snowy on the assumption he was GS.

All of the above rely on that the mafia had even figured out that Snowy was PR AND had an idea at his specific role in the first place.



The only other explanations I can think of is that either:
1) Mafia RB'd Balki and nurse saved a mafia that doesn't want to come forward and claim RB (I can't find a way to see this as a reasonable explanation. Claiming RB would seem to put mafia in a better light)

2) Mafia RB'd Balki and nurse saved Steve (##CALL GM - I assume you wouldn't have allowed the nurse to waste a save on Steve knowing you were going to modkill, correct?)

3) Nurse saved Balki and mafia RB'd Steve (^same question)

4) Nurse saved Balki and mafia RB'd someone who doesn't want to claim they were RB'd (if this is the case, I trust that they have a good reason to not claim RB and I do not want them to come forward if they are sure it is benefitting town to remain unclaimed, but it is giving mafia information that town doesn't have)

5) Mafia team holstered and is incompetent (which is informative for town) or on some other-worldly reasoning level that I don't understand (also informative - would be creative and intelligent scum play - Balki? ND? BB?)

[brainbomb]

@brain: Are you going to ever say why you are so confident Mean is town?

I just reread again and what I see is someone who throws shade at Jamie without ever voting him. Then when he's actually in danger (30 minutes left) starts saying things like:

"You [Balki] push jamie, when everyone, even you, can agree he isn't a good lynch today. He's done nothing but be an idiot, pushing yav a bit for being confused, and then pushing lurkers. Dumb does not equal scum. He is an easy vote to push, but not a good one in the slightest."

When earlier she had said:

"honestly just makes me think fox and jamiet are trying to get the easiest lynch they can, which is definitely mafia-like."

Seems like a rapid turnaround on a read. I can get not thinking it was the best lynch target, but not a good one in the slightest is pretty strong language from someone who not long earlier said he was acting mafialike

Mean used an argument against balki that was rooted in reasoning.
Balki case against mean is rooted in emotion. Balki is playing the "im a clear, you pushed me so imma vote you" card. Its not even true hes a clear anyway.

Balii using massive wall of text rebuttals is what he did as scum in m27

[brainbomb]

Balki is an attorney in real life.

His case on mean is crybaby garbage asserting that a brand new player was scum trying to bully him.and pick off an easy mislynch.

[Tom Bombadil]

@tham:

I think the highest likelihood of those scenarios is that mafia RB'd Steve for similar reasons RHK scumread Steve. RHK immediately though Steve was a mafia role because he was not immediately modkilled at EOD for non-participation. Mafia could have the same reasoning (obviously they would know he wasn't mafia) thinking if he was just a vanilla town he would have been modkilled and thus it was likely he was a PR.

[Tom Bombadil]

@brain - what about Mean's defense of Jamie when it mattered most?

[thamrick]

@tham:

I think the highest likelihood of those scenarios is that mafia RB'd Steve for similar reasons RHK scumread Steve. RHK immediately though Steve was a mafia role because he was not immediately modkilled at EOD for non-participation. Mafia could have the same reasoning (obviously they would know he wasn't mafia) thinking if he was just a vanilla town he would have been modkilled and thus it was likely he was a PR.

Okay so again, since I didn't clearly ask in my first ##CALL GM

##CALL GM -
1) Would you have allowed Nurse to save SuperSteve knowing he was about to be modkilled?

2) Would you have allowed mafia to roleblock SuperSteve knowing he was about to be modkilled?

[brainbomb]

@brain - what about Mean's defense of Jamie when it mattered most?

Irrelevant.

Mean followed their top read and didnt waiver. Probably didnt trust balki enough to think Jamie was a legit scum candidate.

[thamrick]

And the inverse was true for Snowy. Look at the vote counts:
When balki moved off of Jamiet onto ND the vote was tied, and he made it 6-4 with ND ahead. Knowing Jamiet is scum makes this look super scummy.
Snowy switched form ND to Jamiet when it was 7-5 to bring it to 6-6 tie. Super towny.
I'm most suspicious of Yav.
I'm townclearing rdriver, reedreeder, and ND until I'm given serious evidence they can't be town.
I'm townreading RHK for being on that wagon as well, but his role was much less serious than the others I've mentioned.

You're right. Vote counts pretty much cleared Snowy. That makes sense why he was NK'd

I don't understand why you're getting the townclear of rd, reedeer, and ND though.

[rdrivera2005]

@Tham - What I meant is that one of the Mafia need to do the killing (and can be seen by the Watcher if he was watching Snowy), so they could have chosen to use the Hooker to do both kill and RB Snowy. Don't think it have a high probability as the Hooker is an important role, but it's more likely then not using it. Maybe Tom's explanation is better.