M81: A Night To Remember [GAME THREAD]

[Kakarroto]

I think across the pond you'd call it willywhacking the garden?

I would not.

Neither would I.

[President Eden]

GM NOTE:

Without comment on any post by any player, all players are on notice that copy and pasting directly from Discord chats is not allowed. Summarizing events in your own words is permissible. I’m aware that alleged Discord chats can be faked easily, but it’s better for the game if we don’t have to go down the road of deciding whether a chat log is authentic or not. Again, summarizing discussion in the chat is acceptable, it’s only direct copy and paste which is disallowed. Thanks

[ghug]

@ghug

in your Aaro case you wrote:

To summarize, that's nine scumreads and zero townreads, with four of those scumreads (worcej, Vecna, Chaqa, Kak) based probably on mechanics and three others (damo, Rd, and brain) only mentioned once in passing.

Is the 9 scumreads an issue? like too many? too few? or is the zero townreads part the actual issue.

I'm not sure. The zero townreads part is definitely an issue. The fact that four of the strongest scumreads were mechanical is definitely an issue. I'm not sure what to make of the HB stuff but it seems to me like he was doing the whole thing where you scumread a teammate but not at the top. I'm also not sure what to make of the quantity of scumreads but I'm inclined to view it as throwing as much shit at the wall as possible to see what sticks. The latter two points could have other explanations so I'm more open to the idea that I'm confbiasing there.

[brainbomb]

I think I was most taken aback by aaro saying that meta, and using evidence from past games should not be used in hunting proceedings.

I have never heard of anyone taking a stance that making cases based on past game data was unfair, or disallowed. It kind of comes off as sour grapes on Hamilton.

The statement that I should only be hunting based on hunting, and that the way I cased Hamilton was "unfair" somehow.

If anyone else feels this way by all means let me know, and let me know if you think its unsportsmanlike to use meta, to use old game data, to use volume data from past games. ect

[Kakarroto]

and yea the reason I scumread ezio is that his posts dont match his actions. He will claim to be scumreading someone, drives up a wagon and then leaves it as evidenced in my casework.

He has good posts that I resonate with, and then he abandons those stances at opportune times to push elsewhere. He flutters around. He is a dodgy worm. His post about rdrivera much like his post about sweetandcool resonated with me. It made me rethink the game.

And then he does absolutely nothing to join the rivera wagon and actually make it a thing. I thought maybe since it was the second time around with agreeing with him he would join me. and he didnt.

you know, your actions on HB are comparable.

This behaviour seems to be fashionable currently. It's also what I disliked from Vecna where he said damo and I were his maf-reads around 1 hour before EoD (maybe a bit shorter? maybe it was half'n'hour?) and then didn't vote for either, even when aaro was already voting me and damo was on the table after I began to vote him.

The problem here is, we have 3 people doing that but only 2 maf slots left. So at least one town is doing this. Probably even two. Maybe even all three here are town.

Bottom line, it's not maf-indicative, as much as I dislike it, so I guess I have to rethink some things myself.

[brainbomb]

Also, to get back to this game, I personally don’t think you pulling info from prior games is that useful for proving a case about hb. However, it is useful for showing how strongly you feel about him being scummy.

I trust it too. I just think backing it up with evidence isn’t helpful. It seems like to me, you had a hunch and then backed it up with evidence. Unfortunately in situations like these, the evidence is incredibly influenced by selection bias.

So what I’m saying is that I trust your hunch but not the evidence. So while I think you’re likely town and have some trust in your hunch, I’m not convinced that I should change my vote.

Also I’m sure that feels very frustrating based on how sure you seem. I’m just trying to give you insight into my pov.

[ghug]

I think I was most taken aback by aaro saying that meta, and using evidence from past games should not be used in hunting proceedings.

I have never heard of anyone taking a stance that making cases based on past game data was unfair, or disallowed. It kind of comes off as sour grapes on Hamilton.

The statement that I should only be hunting based on hunting, and that the way I cased Hamilton was "unfair" somehow.

If anyone else feels this way by all means let me know, and let me know if you think its unsportsmanlike to use meta, to use old game data, to use volume data from past games. ect

I'm not sure if it was sour grapes or relative inexperience or what, but "I also scumread [teammate] but I think your case on them is bad" is a pretty common soft defense tactic.

[Kakarroto]

[...]
Vecna: Where I come from dancing is a way of life. I dance while eating my breakfast. I dance while taking a piss. I dance while driving my car which is why ive had so many wrecks. In Europe all we can do is dance and pay taxes.
[...]

you confuse Europe with Austria

[Kakarroto]

[...]
We're both 100% town on:
[...]
Vecna: Main couterwagon, great posts, all around beautiful person
[...]

I'm not saying Vecna wasn't a wagon EoD, but I seriously doubt he was the MAIN. As far as I remember it, the VecnaWagon was steady on place 3, 4 or 5, even went down to two votes at a time whene others where at 3 and 4 votes.

How do you (both?) come to the conclusion, that Vecna was that big of a wagon?

[brainbomb]

and yea the reason I scumread ezio is that his posts dont match his actions. He will claim to be scumreading someone, drives up a wagon and then leaves it as evidenced in my casework.

He has good posts that I resonate with, and then he abandons those stances at opportune times to push elsewhere. He flutters around. He is a dodgy worm. His post about rdrivera much like his post about sweetandcool resonated with me. It made me rethink the game.

And then he does absolutely nothing to join the rivera wagon and actually make it a thing. I thought maybe since it was the second time around with agreeing with him he would join me. and he didnt.

you know, your actions on HB are comparable.

This behaviour seems to be fashionable currently. It's also what I disliked from Vecna where he said damo and I were his maf-reads around 1 hour before EoD (maybe a bit shorter? maybe it was half'n'hour?) and then didn't vote for either, even when aaro was already voting me and damo was on the table after I began to vote him.

The problem here is, we have 3 people doing that but only 2 maf slots left. So at least one town is doing this. Probably even two. Maybe even all three here are town.

Bottom line, it's not maf-indicative, as much as I dislike it, so I guess I have to rethink some things myself.

This isnt fair to say about my voting overall.

##Vote DemonRHK

no one sheeped this
no one followed this
And I left this to go to sweet and cool, when Ezio pushed sweetandcool.

Then ezio left this, and I joined a wagon on vecna. Jamie was leading the vecna wagon, I put it at a 2. Aaro joined at this point putting vecna at a 3.

I unvoted here and decided to reconsider the game.
I then voted chaqa, and no one joined that push during that time.
I then voted Hamilton 7:14

No one joined me on Hamilton
I then voted Chaqa at 02:27 at a time making Chaqa a (3)
I then left chaqa at 01:08
And rejoined Chaqa at :24

THere is not a single example of where I created a wagon, someone joined it, and I left that wagon.

The only example is I made a case on Hamilton, stayed on hamilton for 5 hours, no one joined that wagon at all, and then I left to push chaqa.

Then when I did push chaqa suddenly the Hamilton pressure and wagon exploded to an eventual 8 wagon.

[brainbomb]

I guess maybe you could argue I drove up a vecna wagon and then left it. But other than that comparing my voting habits and posts to ezio is a toxic nasty thing to claim about my play this game.

[Kakarroto]

[...]



I tried so hard to format it. I figured link quoting is way easier to read than just blobby quotes everywhere.
[...]

I was getting to the headspace "oh man, those quoted posts get a bit annoying, they aren't looking as easy to read anymore" and thought that maybe we want fewer of them, but after your link-post, I instantly recognized why it is a blessing to have the quote-function in the way we have.

It was a good idea, don't get me wrong, but comparing them visually, the quotes are just way better than the link-post.

I guess it's like with having democracy as a system. It's flawed and ugly and so much can go bad and wrong but it's just the best thing we have looking at all the other options.

[aarodactyl]

Someone agree with me on aaro please.

I'd like to see Aaro reply.

I had an all staff meeting for the last two hours. I’m catching up on the thread now. I can respond to what ghug is saying but it might be better use of all of our time if you can things you want me to clarify, rather than just pointing at the whole post.

[Chaqa]

Town
(kak)

worcej
vecna
ghug
jamiet99uk
sweetandcool
chaqa
rdrivera

damo
aarodactyl
ezio
demonrhk

I disagree quite a lot with this list but that isn't a bad thing.

Could you give me some places to look for why you town read ghug and Sweet?

[ghug]

Someone agree with me on aaro please.

I'd like to see Aaro reply.

I had an all staff meeting for the last two hours. I’m catching up on the thread now. I can respond to what ghug is saying but it might be better use of all of our time if you can things you want me to clarify, rather than just pointing at the whole post.

Unless you find my characterizations of your posting inaccurate, it's really just that you've voiced one read all night and the non-bulleted part of the big post.

[ghug]

Town
(kak)

worcej
vecna
ghug
jamiet99uk
sweetandcool
chaqa
rdrivera

damo
aarodactyl
ezio
demonrhk

I disagree quite a lot with this list but that isn't a bad thing.

Could you give me some places to look for why you town read ghug and Sweet?

Re: sweet, I encourage you to look at the voting on HB.

[Chaqa]

GM NOTE:

Without comment on any post by any player, all players are on notice that copy and pasting directly from Discord chats is not allowed. Summarizing events in your own words is permissible. I’m aware that alleged Discord chats can be faked easily, but it’s better for the game if we don’t have to go down the road of deciding whether a chat log is authentic or not. Again, summarizing discussion in the chat is acceptable, it’s only direct copy and paste which is disallowed. Thanks

##CallGM: Does this mean faked Discord chats are also disallowed?

[Chaqa]

Town
(kak)

worcej
vecna
ghug
jamiet99uk
sweetandcool
chaqa
rdrivera

damo
aarodactyl
ezio
demonrhk

I disagree quite a lot with this list but that isn't a bad thing.

Could you give me some places to look for why you town read ghug and Sweet?

Re: sweet, I encourage you to look at the voting on HB.

What if I just continued to not know who voted him.

It might be interesting.

[brainbomb]

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... aarodactyl

a brief cursory glance and I see right away, aaro using meta to defend people as town.

Use mafia.peterlund.se
search messages
user: aarodactyl
Words: Last Game

http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?us ... +game&g=63

For someone who hates previous game data points to play, he used previous game data points through 6 day phases of gameplay to establish townreads

[aarodactyl]

@brain: it’s very early in the morning here and I’m having trouble reading through your long posts. I’m doing my best but if you have a question to me hiding in the middle of one of them, I may miss it.

@aaro there is enough time (or at least was enough time) at night to explain the math. To say where this mysterious gap between the probabilities came from. "i DoNt WaNt To SaY nOw WaIt FoR aFtEr GaMe" isn't good enough. EXPLAIN YOURSELF. It's not like you are doing anything else.

I explained it a few times in the thread and it got tiring. I thought it would be easier to just jump on a video call than to type it up (plus my attempts at typing it up evidently didn’t make enough sense).

If the math issue is enough of a pain point for you, I can try typing it up again.

(Also I’m still going to respond to ghug’s post. Still catching up first)