M80 Game Thread

[worcej]

I have a hard time beleiving that all damo has to do to become a townread is push someone and then unvote them. and this is some habitual thing he only does as town

I do find it interesting that some people give damo a pass because he’s easy to figure out later.

[brainbomb]

@brain

I’m reading you still, but that’s not worth hijacking my question to Jamie.

I see you reading bona from this and previous games. Here’s a cookie

The towniest thing you’ve done IMO is quickly changing your mind about Fox. Here’s a cookie

you can keep the cookies. Im not out to score points with you, im not the one being heavily scumread here. the best I can offer you is a partnership in killing potential scum, assuming thats what you want

[President Eden]

If you wanted genuine engagement then you shouldn’t have responded to my genuine engagement earlier this phase with manipulative bullshit.

If you wanted a rational conversation you should have done basic homework to understand the things you’re talking about and you shouldn’t have acted like a manipulative assclown.

You don’t get to decide my timeline for when I will have an earnest conversation with you.

[worcej]

I mean...Bunny's still most interested in your potential scum slip. Was it a joke? You still haven't pointed out that you know what I'm thinking. That's even more slippery.

I also have seen you make some gutsy scum plays. I try not to underestimate your ballsiness.

God, fuck it - I hardclaim a PR.

Fuck you for pushing this harder than you needed to Bunny.

Was this necessary?

You should’ve seen the reasoning on the catch up.

[Jamiet99uk]

No.

You listed three people you would vote for.
Presumably you scumread or at least scumlean those three people.

Two of your three targets spent 20+ pages having a massive argument that is one of the most notable parts of D1 so far.

If you don't think it was s v s, do you therefore think that if one of Brain / Eden is scum, the other must be town?

I'm sure it's relatively clear why I'm asking about this.

You’ve been having trouble connecting dots this game more than I remember.

Yes: I have found both Eden and brain’s posts scummier than townier.
Yes: they had an argument
Do I think it was SvS? <shrug> the disengagement of the argument seemed to read like at least one of them had decided they’d pushed it enough, done their part and was done. But that was the only part that seemed possibly SvS.

And finally: No. I honestly cannot follow your thoughts on why this is “relatively clear” you think this is an interesting thing to investigate. Please elaborate in clear kings English.

Alright.

I think it's pretty interesting that when you provided a list of three suspects, two of the people you listed had spent a considerable part of D1 having a massive argument, and yet you (a) did not appear to be thinking about whether they were connected to each other, merely scumreading them both in isolation, and then (b) when I asked you about it, you initially gave me a very dismissive one-word response, so I had to press you.

My gut instinct says "I wonder if that was a fabricated set of reads that wasn't the product of very much careful thought?".

[Jamiet99uk]

were they correct?

No idea, as it was proverb someone mentioned in (I think) my first game (possibly even in the scum chat). I recall once that ghug (I think?) showed up to a game pretending to be angry that he'd rolled scum, and ended up being town. But that wasn't joking, that was a bit.

Do you have counterexamples?

Im absolutely certain that Town Maniac claimed scum once, that Town Jamie has claimed scum before, and I know for a fact that Town!Me has claimed scum on several occasions. Fluminator has done it before if I recall, in any case, it isnt good play, but it does happen. I would encourage you to read the Bona ISO, and my analysis. And at least do the due diligence on it.

Maniac is a wildly unpredictable crazy person.

[brainbomb]

If you wanted genuine engagement then you shouldn’t have responded to my genuine engagement earlier this phase with manipulative bullshit.

If you wanted a rational conversation you should have done basic homework to understand the things you’re talking about and you shouldn’t have acted like a manipulative assclown.

You don’t get to decide my timeline for when I will have an earnest conversation with you.

You havent made that effort anyway. Ive been extremely reasonable in what ive asked for, what ive analyzed of yours, and rather than calling me manipulative, quote the exact posts where I have misconstrued your thoughts, where ive done some manipulation. show everyone what ive lied about. and explain your side of exactly what youre referring too.

At this point I dont even know what talking point you are saying is a lie. you just keep repeating that every single post in a Donald Trump manner, which doesnt make it accurate.

[Jamiet99uk]

God, fuck it - I hardclaim a PR.

Fuck you for pushing this harder than you needed to Bunny.

Was this necessary?

You should’ve seen the reasoning on the catch up.

Yes. I have. I think you have a hair-trigger PR claiming problem.

[worcej]

And yea foxcastle is doing a really good job of powerwolfing. And nobody seems to be calling it out. But his posts are exclusively from a scum mindset.

This is an interesting take… want to expand further?

[worcej]

Was this necessary?

You should’ve seen the reasoning on the catch up.

Yes. I have. I think you have a hair-trigger PR claiming problem.

[brainbomb]

Ill make this incredibly easy for you.

What I think Edens stances are
damo, pyxxy, rdrivera, and bozo are players who can towntell by voting for scum by day 3

ghug is not someone eden would want to eliminate day 1 because it has backfired before, and there is no urgency to eliminate ghug in this game.

sweetandcool was someone eden was pinged by because they may have been pretending to be british to roleplay being mafia.

eden thinks brainbomb is mafia because he is a liar and is minconstruing edens reads.

damo is town because he is direct and helpful to his team. he also tends to unvote someone he scumreads at some point, and he did that with Jamie. so Damo is town for now.

[worcej]

on reread fox is actually pumping out alot of townreads. I retract my statement.

[rdrivera2005]

I think Jamiet have a good point about Bunny ignoring completely the exchange between Eden and Brain on his vote possibilities. His answer is also poor so I am moving Bunny out of my not vote list.

I don't like Bona wagon, it's lazy just not sure if it's scum motivated or not.

Right now I will go with my original gut feeling and ##vote sweetandcool

Do you imagine that town will eventually have to resolve myself, eden, bunnygo? any of those people?

you really dont want to see any of those flips?

I think it's more likely that both you and Eden are town then scum and I don'twant to push any of you today. And there is a lot of other ways to resolve people then DKIlling them (NK, scan, etc).

Bunny maybe, I am not really understanding his play.

[brainbomb]

I understood your stances. I presented them as you did. And then I took issue with each one and explained why I have issues with them. I also took issue with your reads list, and how you were updating it, and who you were moving around on it.

[worcej]

I mean, I am good with a ##vote Eden

[BunnyGo]

You listed three people you would vote for.
Presumably you scumread or at least scumlean those three people.

Two of your three targets spent 20+ pages having a massive argument that is one of the most notable parts of D1 so far.

If you don't think it was s v s, do you therefore think that if one of Brain / Eden is scum, the other must be town?

I'm sure it's relatively clear why I'm asking about this.

You’ve been having trouble connecting dots this game more than I remember.

Yes: I have found both Eden and brain’s posts scummier than townier.
Yes: they had an argument
Do I think it was SvS? <shrug> the disengagement of the argument seemed to read like at least one of them had decided they’d pushed it enough, done their part and was done. But that was the only part that seemed possibly SvS.

And finally: No. I honestly cannot follow your thoughts on why this is “relatively clear” you think this is an interesting thing to investigate. Please elaborate in clear kings English.

Alright.

I think it's pretty interesting that when you provided a list of three suspects, two of the people you listed had spent a considerable part of D1 having a massive argument, and yet you (a) did not appear to be thinking about whether they were connected to each other, merely scumreading them both in isolation, and then (b) when I asked you about it, you initially gave me a very dismissive one-word response, so I had to press you.

My gut instinct says "I wonder if that was a fabricated set of reads that wasn't the product of very much careful thought?".

I don’t think my reads are so perfect that I’m putting together whole teams yet. Finding anyone would be a win.

Do you honestly try to put together teams this early in the game as opposed to just getting beads on individuals?

[brainbomb]

I think Jamiet have a good point about Bunny ignoring completely the exchange between Eden and Brain on his vote possibilities. His answer is also poor so I am moving Bunny out of my not vote list.

I don't like Bona wagon, it's lazy just not sure if it's scum motivated or not.

Right now I will go with my original gut feeling and ##vote sweetandcool

Do you imagine that town will eventually have to resolve myself, eden, bunnygo? any of those people?

you really dont want to see any of those flips?

I think it's more likely that both you and Eden are town then scum and I don'twant to push any of you today. And there is a lot of other ways to resolve people then DKIlling them (NK, scan, etc).

Bunny maybe, I am not really understanding his play.

this isnt true because scum can always self jail and they have three jails. so it could be a very long time before someone got off a scan on someone like Eden if they were worried he was likely to be cop checked.

[Xcution]

holy shit you could cut the irony with a knife

I mean, I can talk and respond without needing to be asked questions.

I think it's hilarious that you only spoke in questions here. But moving on, I finally got around to reviewing post history and I think I know what's going on.

Post 572: You bring up the issue that you think I'm being too self aware and "nervous".

Post 853: You quote my response, where I explain that I am only nervous about D1 because I don't know how to play it. I guess it didn't satisfy your concern about my self awareness, but it was a good faith effort to address your concerns.

This post confused me because the first sentence seemed to imply to me that you asked me questions that I did not answer. It turns out no questions were asked, and in fact you went on to reiterate the concerns that I thought I had just addressed.

Post 1018: You claim to have been asking me questions that I have not been answering. This further confused me into thinking you had mysterious questions that I did not understand. It turns out this was not the case. You never asked a question.

Post 1023: You quote my response to 1018. I do a better job of addressing your concern about my self-awareness (though I felt like I was essentially repeating myself). It turns out you really don't like questions because you never asked any here. But you again reiterated your views for like the third time, but finally you demand I give you two people I would shoot and two people I would save. Essentially a question, and finally something new to work with.

Post 1127: Fun sidenote here, but Jamiet complains about you railing against him without asking any questions. And other than a page 13 question, which could have easily been missed, you never really asked them anything substantial either. Hilariously in this post you practically ask them nothing of note, yet again. Maybe you're the problem here....

Post 1170: Claims not to give a fuck about my newness, yet makes it a talking point. Okay, in writing this summary so far, I can see how my newness wasn't the focus of your concern, but you were incorporating it as a talking point. And I'm annoyed this still has to be dredged up yet again.

I mean, it seems that you can't accept my explanations as to why I am self-aware. Nothing seems to satisfy you. And you keep coming back to the point that I am new as a justification for your position. Pretty hypocritical, but I suppose in this post it's clear you are finally being emotional as well.

I'm also going to take this opportunity to point out that you are distracting us both from wolf hunting. Has this issue actually been so concerning to you that you think it's the most productive thing you could be doing? It really makes me hope you are Mafia because clearly I'm terrible at blowing people off when they are wasting my time.

Post 1179: Finally, you start laying down the questions, and regain the more productive mindset that was promised by your behavior at the beginning of the game. It took some begging from me, and even Jamiet making the same complete, but we finally got there.

Post 1186: This is too funny because poor Jamiet has to deal with your response which contains no questions. The poor guy just asked you what you wanted to him, and you respond by mocking him. Just ask him a damn question and you'll probably get an answer.

Post 1266: I really don't get this response. Despite you hardly giving me any direct answers, I actually had been addressing all of your concerns over and over. So I'm pretty pleased I managed to interpret what you wanted, and made a good effort to address your concerns. The issue is that you didn't like any of my responses, but somehow you've decided I'm complaining about questions.

Again, I guess the issue here is that your behavior seemed to indicated I wasn't addressing your concerns, and so I concluded you must have some questions for me. I asked you what questions you had and instead of formulating something, you just whined.

It really comes down to me not wanting to make the extra effort of reading your mind, and you not wanting to make the extra effort to spoon-feed me what's on your mind.

I haven't responded to your last post or two, so I guess that is next. But I can see now that, bizarrely, part of the issue in communication between us is that your behavior indicated to me that you had questions for me, and for some reason you hated being asked what those questions were. And in the other direction, you felt like you weren't asking questions, you just wanted a dialogue where I convinced you that I wasn't Mafia, or something along those lines, I'm really still a bit fuzzy on what your goal was since it doesn't seem like you've ever been prepared to listen to anything I've said.

Post 572 the issue that I had was that you said 'I absorbed new abilities and am different this game'. To me, someone only playing one game and saying that feels pingy because it seems like you're saying 'I have advanced my skills please don't look this way'. Of course that's not a lot, but I used it as a starting point to push your slot. I don't recall this ever being properly addressed initially, so that's when I said you weren't responding to my 'questions' around your slot.

Post 853 is me responding to you complaining about how much players have been harping on your newness and then throwing down a vote on me without addressing what I was saying. I restate that my issue with you isn't actually about your level experience, but what you've been saying and doing with that level of experience. I tried to extend good faith to you by trying to have a conversation, but you throw down a vote and then act completely exhausted with me poking around your slot. I'm not sure why you're complaining about no questions being asked and are fixated on that when I gave you plenty to respond to; not everything needs to be structured in a sentence to be neatly replied to.

Post 1018 I feel like this is becoming a theme of miscommunication now. You've taken me saying the word questions literally (which I suppose is fair on your behalf) and desperately searching for where these questions are. But I think it's pretty obvious that I have questions and suss around your slot and that I was asking that could be responded to. I guess this is a weird literal take from you here when I use the word question, but to say that I wasn't pushing or sussing your slot and that there was NOTHING to respond to is pretty disingenuous.

Post 1023 your answer here was something I further pushed you on because you launched into this answer of abstract thinking when I can't read your mind not do I want to just blindly trust what you're saying. In an act of GOOD FAITH by me, I try to move on (despite your clear OMGUS vote) and ask you what your other views are on this game. You even admit that it's finally something to work with and that is me trying to advance my read on your slot.

Post 1127 is just pure shade by you. I can write fill wallies about sussing a slot without ever asking a question. Look how you've responded to me now, THIS is what I was expecting, this is a response without me having to ask questions. I really don't think it's that hard to respond the accusations or susses from other players even if there isn't any formal question asked. Look how I'm responding to your wall right now. Have you asked any questions of me? No, you've written out things you disagree with my slot and I am RESPONDING. I feel like you are expecting some rigid way of playing Mafia here like me saying 'please answer questions 1, 3, and 5 for me in complete sentences'. There have been arguments this game where players are just going back and forth at each other without questions being asked. I feel like you harping on their being 'no questions' is such an odd and literal point to be stuck on.

Post 1170 okay this kind of sounds like you're admitting that you misunderstood what I was trying to get at here? I'm not trying to waste your time here, I promise, but this is also how I hunt (and it's a style that people can dislike, I know). I really song think it's wasting time, though, because I can do this and still interact with others. I initially had an issue with something you said, so I pushed it, and I found your lack of response to be wanting, so I pushed more. If you had responded like this from the beginning, we wouldn't have had as big of an issue, because I felt like your lack of response was pingy and indicated you didn't want to be poked. I don't think this is a waste of time either because it's allowing me to solve your slot and figure out what your alignment is. If all you got on me is that I'm wasting your time and you don't think this argument has productive, then I'm afraid you simply don't have a case on me. If you're 'hoping I'm mafia' just because of this, I'll have to reference you to the Champs games where me and another townie literally tunneled each other from D1 until game end and were relentless on each other.

Post 1179 I mean, you say I finally lay down questions, but I think you've just finally started actually responding. I still am so confused about you needing me to hold your hand and ask specific questions just to get you to respond when I had been quoting your slot and saying what I had issues with. Like, if someone called you an asshole in real life, would you not respond unless someone asked 'why are you an asshole'? It just seems so fucking odd that you dug your feet in over me not having literally questions for you, when I obviously was discussing this issues I had with your slot. I think part of this argument has been miscommunication and misunderstanding.

Post 1186 this is more unnecessary shade. I feel like I've explained enough that asking direct questions aren't needed to have an interaction or illicit a response from someone.

Post 1266 I didn't really get YOUR response either. Is it fair to say you are a quite literal person? Because I feel like some of our interaction was based on different expectations on how we might interact with other slots. After this wallie and response, I do feel like there was a level of miscommunication here with each other.

I mean, you were the one that was whining about not being asked questions when I had given you plenty of content to respond to. It almost feels as if you play Mafia on a square when I play Mafia in a decagon. That's not an insult, but that's kind of how our play styles feel, which would make sense considering you've played one game and I've played many (again not an insult, just matter of fact).

Okay this feels like an apt summary of what's going on, though I feel like you don't really need to read my mind on what's going on because I've been pretty transparent with my thoughts. I also don't think I need to spoon feed someone in a game like Mafia.

Last paragraph I feel like even more sums up our interaction. I usually only ever ask questions to get the ball rolling for myself and then I launch into dialogue and see what the other player is made of. I take an analytical approach on things and that's how I try to communicate. It works a lot better in real life because I'm big into non-verbal communication, so usually when I throw shit out I'm looking for reactions in a lot of different ways. I understand why you might be a bit fuzzy on my goal because there really wasn't a specific goal in mind. I took initial issue with some of the things you said and I wanted to pound in your door and see how you'd respond; that's just how I play. When you didn't open your door right away, I pounded more on it until you did. Your initial reluctance to answer my issues, your insistance that I needed to ask you questions, and then you trying to suss me because of all this, really weren't things that sat well with me. This response is a lot better and was something I wanted from the start, so now it gives me something to reconsider about your slot.

[President Eden]

I understood your stances. I presented them as you did. And then I took issue with each one and explained why I have issues with them. I also took issue with your reads list, and how you were updating it, and who you were moving around on it.

No you didn’t. You cherrypicked what you wanted to see, either out of conscious manipulation or an inability to read in context.

Ample past experience with you tells me that there is no point to engaging with you rationally because even when I am perfectly rational, neutral, and fair to you, like the Panhandlin game, you twist what I say to fit your incessant need to be a victim. You are not worth dealing with and I regret not withdrawing my name from the list of players when I saw you sign up

[rdrivera2005]

Do you imagine that town will eventually have to resolve myself, eden, bunnygo? any of those people?

you really dont want to see any of those flips?

I think it's more likely that both you and Eden are town then scum and I don'twant to push any of you today. And there is a lot of other ways to resolve people then DKIlling them (NK, scan, etc).

Bunny maybe, I am not really understanding his play.

this isnt true because scum can always self jail and they have three jails. so it could be a very long time before someone got off a scan on someone like Eden if they were worried he was likely to be cop checked.

True, but I don't scumread Eden so I am not that worried. I am not that worried with you too. I focus more on people I scumread or that I can't have a read like Dousing, Bozo, Pix or even Kak.