MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

[worcej]

Okay, well congratulations on your heroism.

Why were you fine with staying off wagon and on Bunny?

[ghug]

Doesn’t pico have spice?

Pico is lovely when it's nice and fresh or paired with additional salsa.

Considering it’s a fast food chain, I imagine it’s meh

Precisely

[ghug]

The simple and correct answer is no - a tie is fucking horrible to town.

I’ll concede that generating a tie created information, but you have to actually find value in the information generated for this to be good and I don’t see anything valuable gained here other than we killed the highest lurker in the game.

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

[worcej]

The simple and correct answer is no - a tie is fucking horrible to town.

I’ll concede that generating a tie created information, but you have to actually find value in the information generated for this to be good and I don’t see anything valuable gained here other than we killed the highest lurker in the game.

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

Thus why I give you some town points for breaking it too.

But yes, this is why I conclude that Koala wanted to save Bo in this situation.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Okay, well congratulations on your heroism.

Why were you fine with staying off wagon and on Bunny?

1. I was coaching my son’s basketball game and couldn’t focus on this.
2. I did not hear anyone make a compelling case on Bo or Yav. I really didn’t have a preference as to which low hanging fruit was chopped, and
3. given our wagon formation, my complete lack of thread pull, and the number of players who were not participating, I was rather sure we were going to chop Town.

I hope that some day, I’ll be able to persuade people to vote with me.

[Balki Bartokomous]

The simple and correct answer is no - a tie is fucking horrible to town.

I’ll concede that generating a tie created information, but you have to actually find value in the information generated for this to be good and I don’t see anything valuable gained here other than we killed the highest lurker in the game.

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

Well, I felt like the way worcej was challenging Koala was unfair. So I said something. The experience dynamic between the players was something that I thought about when deciding to speak up.

[worcej]

The simple and correct answer is no - a tie is fucking horrible to town.

I’ll concede that generating a tie created information, but you have to actually find value in the information generated for this to be good and I don’t see anything valuable gained here other than we killed the highest lurker in the game.

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

Well, I felt like the way worcej was challenging Koala was unfair. So I said something. The experience dynamic between the players was something that I thought about when deciding to speak up.

If it helps in any way, I would have said the same thing to anyone else if they had done the same thing

[Balki Bartokomous]

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

Well, I felt like the way worcej was challenging Koala was unfair. So I said something. The experience dynamic between the players was something that I thought about when deciding to speak up.

If it helps in any way, I would have said the same thing to anyone else if they had done the same thing

I’m sure. I really don’t mean to accuse you of something nefarious here. I just felt like Koala might have needed some encouragement and I wanted to make the point that we are allowing too many excuses in general for people to vote for other reasons than who they think is scum.

[worcej]

Well, I felt like the way worcej was challenging Koala was unfair. So I said something. The experience dynamic between the players was something that I thought about when deciding to speak up.

If it helps in any way, I would have said the same thing to anyone else if they had done the same thing

I’m sure. I really don’t mean to accuse you of something nefarious here. I just felt like Koala might have needed some encouragement and I wanted to make the point that we are allowing too many excuses in general for people to vote for other reasons than who they think is scum.

I didn’t get upset by your statement but still find it weird that you don’t have a definitive stance on ties from a town perspective.

[Balki Bartokomous]

My stance on ties is that I am suspicious when people cast their votes in order to make ties or break ties or avoid ties. I want people to vote for who they think is most likely to be scum.

Also, I may have forgot that the rule about ties here is no kill. I think that’s a silly rule, but I may not have fully baked thoughts on it because I haven’t played with that rule in a long time.

[Balki Bartokomous]

I guess rules that randomize the result when there is a tie are silly too.

I don’t like ties, but I especially don’t like people giving up their super power (their vote) because they take it upon themselves to be a TBH or telling new players that they need to take it upon themselves to be TBH too.

If everyone is a TBH, nobody needs any justification for their vote.

[worcej]

I guess rules that randomize the result when there is a tie are silly too.

I don’t like ties, but I especially don’t like people giving up their super power (their vote) because they take it upon themselves to be a TBH or telling new players that they need to take it upon themselves to be TBH too.

If everyone is a TBH, nobody needs any justification for their vote.

TBH = Tie Breaking Hero?

[Balki Bartokomous]

I guess rules that randomize the result when there is a tie are silly too.

I don’t like ties, but I especially don’t like people giving up their super power (their vote) because they take it upon themselves to be a TBH or telling new players that they need to take it upon themselves to be TBH too.

If everyone is a TBH, nobody needs any justification for their vote.

TBH = Tie Breaking Hero?

Not all TBHs wear capes.

[ghug]

I will say that as someone whose alignment we're not likely to be worrying about a few days down the line, anyone other than you breaking the tie is probably preferable.

Where Balki loses me is the accusations of hypocrisy. Mafia's not a game where you can afford to avoid questioning others' wrong choices just because you made the same wrong choices.

Well, I felt like the way worcej was challenging Koala was unfair. So I said something. The experience dynamic between the players was something that I thought about when deciding to speak up.

If it helps in any way, I would have said the same thing to anyone else if they had done the same thing

Koala also took it impressively well, which was cool.

[ghug]

I guess rules that randomize the result when there is a tie are silly too.

I don’t like ties, but I especially don’t like people giving up their super power (their vote) because they take it upon themselves to be a TBH or telling new players that they need to take it upon themselves to be TBH too.

If everyone is a TBH, nobody needs any justification for their vote.

I don't think we have that problem. Usually the tiebreaker is someone with a smaller delta in opinions between the two players and we have both the justification of their original vote and their choice to move (or their choice between the wagons if they were on a third) to analyze. And then a vote like mine doesn't negate the fact that I voted all day and didn't break the tie, it just marginally increases the odds that someone dies.

[Balki Bartokomous]

The larger problem is that I don’t understand if or why anyone thought Bo or Yav was scum. That makes it pretty easy for the bad guys to pretend to be town.

[ghug]

The larger problem is that I don’t understand if or why anyone thought Bo or Yav was scum. That makes it pretty easy for the bad guys to pretend to be town.

I thought both were decent shots, so I can try to answer.

We discussed bo before and you seemed to understand if not agree:
1. Bo has been active in discussions, but most of what he's done is find things to argue about. He nitpicks, he criticizes play choices, and he espouses mechanical opinions, but he spends very little time actually tying himself to thoughts on people's alignments.
1a. The time I've agreed with him most this game is around the discussion of mass-claiming. Obviously, you don't agree with us, but it's a smell when the best or most memorable opinions someone has are about mechanics and not scumhunting.
1b. Take the way he'd expressed no opinion about me at all until a wagon formed on me, and then suddenly he'd just been patiently waiting for someone else to share his scumread on me. Did that read exist before it was convenient for it to exist? There's clear scum benefit to playing that way, I don't see town benefit, and I know bo has behaved similarly as scum in the past.
2. His play around the night vote was extremely suspicious. He barely participated in the voting, he wasn't pushing the process, and he didn't vote for worcej. Then, hours later and without mass consensus, he was ready to hammer the guy who won with four votes, reads (or lack thereof) be damned.

Yav is less exciting. He was lurking and thus the best choice among my null reads. I don't really see what differentiated him from lfischl for people.

[Balki Bartokomous]

The larger problem is that I don’t understand if or why anyone thought Bo or Yav was scum. That makes it pretty easy for the bad guys to pretend to be town.

I thought both were decent shots, so I can try to answer.

We discussed bo before and you seemed to understand if not agree:
1. Bo has been active in discussions, but most of what he's done is find things to argue about. He nitpicks, he criticizes play choices, and he espouses mechanical opinions, but he spends very little time actually tying himself to thoughts on people's alignments.
1a. The time I've agreed with him most this game is around the discussion of mass-claiming. Obviously, you don't agree with us, but it's a smell when the best or most memorable opinions someone has are about mechanics and not scumhunting.
1b. Take the way he'd expressed no opinion about me at all until a wagon formed on me, and then suddenly he'd just been patiently waiting for someone else to share his scumread on me. Did that read exist before it was convenient for it to exist? There's clear scum benefit to playing that way, I don't see town benefit, and I know bo has behaved similarly as scum in the past.
2. His play around the night vote was extremely suspicious. He barely participated in the voting, he wasn't pushing the process, and he didn't vote for worcej. Then, hours later and without mass consensus, he was ready to hammer the guy who won with four votes, reads (or lack thereof) be damned.

Yav is less exciting. He was lurking and thus the best choice among my null reads. I don't really see what differentiated him from lfischl for people.

It’s a reasonable case on Bo that I can follow and understand, though I’m not sure how much of it is AI, rather than just descriptive of how Bo usually plays. I feel like Bo is always game for a ghug wagon, no matter his alignment. The nit picky stuff seems NAI. I wouldn’t expect him to push the night voting “process.” The part about him wanting to hammer worcej on Day 2, that’s…that’s a decent point.

Given the way you describe it all, I would have thought you’d keep your vote on Bo.

[bozotheclown]

The larger problem is that I don’t understand if or why anyone thought Bo or Yav was scum. That makes it pretty easy for the bad guys to pretend to be town.

I thought both were decent shots, so I can try to answer.

We discussed bo before and you seemed to understand if not agree:
1. Bo has been active in discussions, but most of what he's done is find things to argue about. He nitpicks, he criticizes play choices, and he espouses mechanical opinions, but he spends very little time actually tying himself to thoughts on people's alignments.
1a. The time I've agreed with him most this game is around the discussion of mass-claiming. Obviously, you don't agree with us, but it's a smell when the best or most memorable opinions someone has are about mechanics and not scumhunting.
1b. Take the way he'd expressed no opinion about me at all until a wagon formed on me, and then suddenly he'd just been patiently waiting for someone else to share his scumread on me. Did that read exist before it was convenient for it to exist? There's clear scum benefit to playing that way, I don't see town benefit, and I know bo has behaved similarly as scum in the past.
2. His play around the night vote was extremely suspicious. He barely participated in the voting, he wasn't pushing the process, and he didn't vote for worcej. Then, hours later and without mass consensus, he was ready to hammer the guy who won with four votes, reads (or lack thereof) be damned.

Yav is less exciting. He was lurking and thus the best choice among my null reads. I don't really see what differentiated him from lfischl for people.

Reason 2 is why I suspect bo_sox, trying to enforce the vote for a gambler item is the kind of thing I would expect bo_sox to complain about, not participate in.

I thought yavuzovic's D1 vote justifications were questionable, I asked him about it early D2, and he later posted without addressing my question. Then he was gone for most of D2. I repeated my question when he showed up for EOD, and I liked his answer, because I had misinterpreted what he meant when he said he did not "like the votes" when he voted for damo. His explanation was that he did not like damo's votes, specifically damo's temporary vote for Chaqa. Looking at D1, I think he had a good point, damo said he voted for Chaqa based on Chaqa END voting, but then damo changed his vote when Chaqa moved his vote, which should not have necessarily made Chaqa END vote less suspicious. Also, there was no reason to take Chaqa's END vote seriously. yavuzovic indicated he thought damo might have been distance voting Chaqa, which I think was a reasonable theory.

[ghug]

The larger problem is that I don’t understand if or why anyone thought Bo or Yav was scum. That makes it pretty easy for the bad guys to pretend to be town.

I thought both were decent shots, so I can try to answer.

We discussed bo before and you seemed to understand if not agree:
1. Bo has been active in discussions, but most of what he's done is find things to argue about. He nitpicks, he criticizes play choices, and he espouses mechanical opinions, but he spends very little time actually tying himself to thoughts on people's alignments.
1a. The time I've agreed with him most this game is around the discussion of mass-claiming. Obviously, you don't agree with us, but it's a smell when the best or most memorable opinions someone has are about mechanics and not scumhunting.
1b. Take the way he'd expressed no opinion about me at all until a wagon formed on me, and then suddenly he'd just been patiently waiting for someone else to share his scumread on me. Did that read exist before it was convenient for it to exist? There's clear scum benefit to playing that way, I don't see town benefit, and I know bo has behaved similarly as scum in the past.
2. His play around the night vote was extremely suspicious. He barely participated in the voting, he wasn't pushing the process, and he didn't vote for worcej. Then, hours later and without mass consensus, he was ready to hammer the guy who won with four votes, reads (or lack thereof) be damned.

Yav is less exciting. He was lurking and thus the best choice among my null reads. I don't really see what differentiated him from lfischl for people.

It’s a reasonable case on Bo that I can follow and understand, though I’m not sure how much of it is AI, rather than just descriptive of how Bo usually plays. I feel like Bo is always game for a ghug wagon, no matter his alignment. The nit picky stuff seems NAI. I wouldn’t expect him to push the night voting “process.” The part about him wanting to hammer worcej on Day 2, that’s…that’s a decent point.

Given the way you describe it all, I would have thought you’d keep your vote on Bo.

I think town bo is far more willing to state opinions on alignments. He still does all the needling crap and mech stuff too, but that's the stuff he can comfortably fake as scum. I'm not sure how blinded by his feelings for me he is with regards to voting for me in general, but it's never stuck out to me as a "meta tunnel", and it's more the way he voted for me than that it's me that I'm taking issue with.

Again, I jumped with the vote "decided" and thirty seconds left to preempt any further switches tying it, which I do often and I don't think lessens the impact of my vote either practically or in how it should be viewed. I cause a lot of late ties, and I'm often seeking out or at least comfortable with actions that make me look a little worse, so doing some last-minute consideration to ensure we're getting clean daykills kinda comes with the territory.