MAFIA 77: RETURN TO THE WEST [GAME THREAD] - [HIDDEN]

[worcej]

Again, a fault in your logic is you disregard the existence of busing and assume all logical based arguments are being made in good faith.

We could have a situation here where lfischl and myself are both town and yavu is actually scum. What he said via his logic does not stop him from flipping both of us because at no point is his basis "if X is town" - he is starting from a scum position.

So, say we flip me and you see I am the town doctor that I claimed. Yavu's logic is meaningless and would actually warrant you going the next step and flipping lfischl next.

I am not saying this proves you are Mafia. I am simply saying that unveiling you presents us with strictly more information, relatively speaking, than unveiling someone else. And while you make a good point why the confidence level might not be as high, I still think that's the case unless I get a better alternative.

As for your Doctor claim, so far from the claim itself and responses, I can't build a case stronger than basic "armchair psychology" which is a weaker signal that yavuzovic's post.

But flipping me and revealing I am town doesn't do anything for yavu's logic here is my point. Your assumption on my flip being valuable is if I flip scum and quite frankly any scum flip is a reap of information, regardless who it is.

Once I flip doctor from a DK, that's a whole shit ton of egg on the collective town's face for wasting one of their limited kills on a claimed PR. If scum don't have a role block, they are going to need to kill me sooner than later because the lower the pool of players gets, the more likely I am to save someone.

[worcej]

Again, a fault in your logic is you disregard the existence of busing and assume all logical based arguments are being made in good faith.

We could have a situation here where lfischl and myself are both town and yavu is actually scum. What he said via his logic does not stop him from flipping both of us because at no point is his basis "if X is town" - he is starting from a scum position.

So, say we flip me and you see I am the town doctor that I claimed. Yavu's logic is meaningless and would actually warrant you going the next step and flipping lfischl next.

I am not saying this proves you are Mafia. I am simply saying that unveiling you presents us with strictly more information, relatively speaking, than unveiling someone else. And while you make a good point why the confidence level might not be as high, I still think that's the case unless I get a better alternative.

As for your Doctor claim, so far from the claim itself and responses, I can't build a case stronger than basic "armchair psychology" which is a weaker signal that yavuzovic's post.

Look woctej, I was really on the fence whether I should post this, as I do not intend it in a personally-directed way. But please hear me out:

If I am perfectly honest, what counts against you in my head is you threw a tantrum earlier. So, if you are Mafia that computes – of course. And if you are Townie, that means you are a highly emotion-driven townie who would be tougher to reason things through with and more susceptible to Mafia team playing mind-games on. So if we make a mistake and have to kill a townie, I rather keep the emotionless robotic logic people around, simply because I am playing as one.

I hope that made sense.

It's interesting to see such cold blooded logic from a new person because we actively try to squash the similar logic that would be used against you - you're new and have no idea what's going on and almost exclusively new players have fucked town over in games numerous times.

I don't apologize for my tantrum. I am still pissed off that another PR game of mine was ruined because of uniformly bad play from at least a couple town players.

[worcej]

This is another fine example of a game where I was trying to lay low-ish and do my PR job as best as possible but too many lazy players (damo, Chaqa, and bo this game) decided to join in on the limited minority of players who were kinda scumming me (Koala and Balki) and made me too much of a target to accomplish my job.

[worcej]

All cards on the table Koala - if you're town, you're probably going to make it to milo and be a liability because you're demonstrating the inability to adapt your opinions and are tunneling me for multiple phases so far.

[worcej]

You've scummed me D1, N1, and D2 and nothing I can say or do is changing that. Once I am flipped and you find out you've been wrong, you're going to either break down and be a logical mess because your logical framework is shattered or you'll just move to another target to tunnel on.

[worcej]

This is a very good question worcej. 46 chips on you now!

Currently, unveiling you as Mafia gives us irrefutable Town-confirmation on 2 other players.

There are 4 scenarios that would make me shift:

(A) If you can build me a logical conjunction that will present someone unveiling whom as Mafia gives us irrefutable alignment confirmation on 3 players, I switch.

(B) If you can build me a logical conjunction that will present someone unveiling whom as Town gives us irrefutable alignment confirmation on 3 players, I switch.

(C) If you can build me a logical conjunction that will present someone unveiling whom as Either gives us irrefutable alignment confirmation on at least 1 player, I switch.

(D) If you can build me a logical case that is stronger than "gut feel armchair psychology" for someone being Mafia, I switch.

If we are going with "gut feel armchair psychology", I prefer my own that also comes with potential bonus info upon unveilng.

I don't think there is a single thing I can do that will achieve (A), (B), or (C) because there isn't a thing that anyone can do to give you irrefutable proof on anyone's alignment.

The only irrefutable proof you could experience in this game is a GM reveal via an oracle (not in this game) or the results of a flip - everything else is subject to you having to believe what someone is telling you and then see if your belief is validated.

Example: A player claims cop and claims a guilty scan. You have to process that information accordingly that you (1) believe their claim as a cop and (2) that they do indeed have a guilty scan.

It's the same as right now: I claimed doctor. So you've accomplished (1) by not believing me, and that's unfortunate for town but is what it is, and are set on killing me because you don't believe it.

(D) is probably not going to happen from me anyways simply due to lack of information at this point. I've presented my reasons for my 3 scum reads and they are heavily dependent on meta and prior behaviors from the players, so you're not going to believe that anyways. And again, there is no irrefutable proof I can provide that they are scum or not.

Let's not play word definitions. Fine, I apologize for using the too-strong a term "irrefutable" – the 99% confidence that yavuzovic used in his post is good enough, how's that?

I misse this question directly, but want to again emphasize that yavu's logic is significantly flawed because of the points I mentioned he left out.

[Balki Bartokomous]

This is another fine example of a game where I was trying to lay low-ish and do my PR job as best as possible but too many lazy players (damo, Chaqa, and bo this game) decided to join in on the limited minority of players who were kinda scumming me (Koala and Balki) and made me too much of a target to accomplish my job.

Wow. That’s quite a summary. Do you feel good about the accuracy of that summary?

[worcej]

Probably a waste of time here - but let's approach this as logically as possible:

I claimed doctor.

You either:
1) Believe it to be possible that I am the doctor.
2) Don't believe it to be possible. Kill him ASAP! [End of Sequence]

The problem with 2 here is my existence extremely helps our investigative PRs:
- A watcher can now watch me and witness the killer if I am targeted
- The tracker and track me and validate if I am a PR or not

Not only that, but a gunsmith now can give me a gun next phase - making it almost guaranteed that the gun is in town's hands for use.

Now think of this from the scum's perspective - they actually know almost for a fact that I am doctor and will approach the situation accordingly. With the above situation, it would be risky to not kill me next night phase and could cause them to lose advantage by allowing a un-CC'ed PR to live longer.

The most logical move is to force the scum to use a NK on me.

[worcej]

This is another fine example of a game where I was trying to lay low-ish and do my PR job as best as possible but too many lazy players (damo, Chaqa, and bo this game) decided to join in on the limited minority of players who were kinda scumming me (Koala and Balki) and made me too much of a target to accomplish my job.

Wow. That’s quite a summary. Do you feel good about the accuracy of that summary?

Uhhh... I mean yes from the standpoint you were the 5 that actively put pressure on me to the point of claiming.

I was intentionally participating and putting my opinions out during the game but also not trying to be a great solver (not that I ever am) so that I didn't draw any ire and get NK'ed randomly.

[bo_sox48]

Are you ever gonna get over yourself or are you actually gonna spend this entire game bitching that your admittedly slacking game looked scummy to people

[bo_sox48]

##VOTE Bunny

[worcej]

Are you ever gonna get over yourself or are you actually gonna spend this entire game bitching that your admittedly slacking game looked scummy to people

Can you just go and hang yourself for me? It'll make it easier for all of us.

[bo_sox48]

I am not reading 8 pages of worcej crying lmao, good grief

[worcej]

Are you ever gonna get over yourself or are you actually gonna spend this entire game bitching that your admittedly slacking game looked scummy to people

But, honest answer, I am totally fine if people said "you looked scummy for what you were doing" - but that hasn't actually happened here.

[bo_sox48]

Are you ever gonna get over yourself or are you actually gonna spend this entire game bitching that your admittedly slacking game looked scummy to people

Can you just go and hang yourself for me? It'll make it easier for all of us.

I haven't tried to hang myself in a little over a decade now and I'd like to keep it that way

[worcej]

I am not reading 8 pages of worcej crying lmao, good grief

You don't read normally anyways, so what's new?

[bo_sox48]

Are you ever gonna get over yourself or are you actually gonna spend this entire game bitching that your admittedly slacking game looked scummy to people

But, honest answer, I am totally fine if people said "you looked scummy for what you were doing" - but that hasn't actually happened here.

You looked scummy for what you were doing

[Balki Bartokomous]

This is another fine example of a game where I was trying to lay low-ish and do my PR job as best as possible but too many lazy players (damo, Chaqa, and bo this game) decided to join in on the limited minority of players who were kinda scumming me (Koala and Balki) and made me too much of a target to accomplish my job.

Wow. That’s quite a summary. Do you feel good about the accuracy of that summary?

Uhhh... I mean yes from the standpoint you were the 5 that actively put pressure on me to the point of claiming.

I was intentionally participating and putting my opinions out during the game but also not trying to be a great solver (not that I ever am) so that I didn't draw any ire and get NK'ed randomly.

I’m sorry for putting so much pressure on you.

[bo_sox48]

I am not reading 8 pages of worcej crying lmao, good grief

You don't read normally anyways, so what's new?

I read every word of every game beyond D1 lol

[worcej]

I am not reading 8 pages of worcej crying lmao, good grief

You don't read normally anyways, so what's new?

I read every word of every game beyond D1 lol

Then you've lied on a few catchup sessions!