M1023: Mafarmia [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

[bozotheclown]

scum pool (up to 4):

bozo: Bonatogether, Chaqa, damo, Kakarroto
Chaqa: bo_sox, bozo, damo, worcej
damo: Chaqa, lfischl, Bonatogether, bozo
bo_sox: damo, worcej, lfischl
worcej: Bonatogether, Kakarroto, damo, heartthrob
heartthrob: pending
Kakarroto: ?
Bonatogether: ?
lfischl: ?

[Bonatogether]

[...]
The part about finding my checking ghug suspicious is what I was talking about earlier. First, it contradicts the position that there is no value in the survey. Second, it looks like fishing for players to vote for me, setting up a move to my wagon if I get some town votes.

I never said there is no value in the survey. It is just much more hurtful to town than any benefits gained. And starting the survey with the N1 target which disposition you and everyone knows of IS suspicious, you can't go wrong since everyone already knows the role and in case you're mafia you can signal your comrades to pick another save pick.

The second point is very strange and defensive for you to mention, you yourself were saying bona was very openly suspicious and didn't vote him, were you "fishing for townvotes to vote him, setting up a move to his wagon if he gets town votes"? Do you realize most of the time when someone mentions a thing they find suspicious they don't instantly vote that person? I voted you later because you didn't seem to see any reason that came from the 'veto-pet-survey' arguments.

[...]
I did not say the dog was useless, but I do not agree that there is useful information for the mafia in the survey.

You make a reasonable counter argument, but for most of this post you seem to be addressing me like you think I am town who has not thought of the things you mention, but then in the end conclude I am mafia. It just seems to me that you know I am town and are just trying to set me up for a mis-kill.

no, you said

the dog power is not significant enough to be overly worried about giving away their identity

but giving up the dogs identity renders it powerless since mafia can just pick the dog up. Maybe you didn't think it through, but I would've judged town bozo to do so.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I make sense. And of course I'm addressing you as town, it wouldn't make sense addressing you as mafia since mafia wouldn't care or even change their mind at this point. I don't know if you are town or mafia, but if you are mafia the whole discussion between us is moot and irrelevant, but if you are actually town bozo I want to reach you and make you realize how awful (at least I think it's awful, maybe god thread can be the judge of that) that survey is. I don't want to vote you out if you are town, I want to rescue you in that case. But all that resistance before is just strengthening the side of me that fears that you are mafia. Understanding that I come from a point of logic here gives me hope though.

into the omgus stretch

If you are playing a mafia strategy of aggressively pushing mis-kills each day, I like it. I tried that one time.

bona tried that some time ago too when he was mafia. I find it hard though to distinguish when he pushes as town compared to when he is mafia. Currently I'm leaning strongly pro town bona

you can't say i'm openwolfing and that you can't vote me

There are 3 mafia, I can see you and Kakarroto as scum teammates here.

and I can see a mafia team with you and worcej here. What I've learned about the span of the games I played here though is it never is that easy.

kak oozes town

[bozotheclown]

N1 dog checks:

bozo: ghug
Chaqa: bozo
Bonatogether: no check
heartthrob: damo
lfischl: Kakarroto
Kakarroto: refuses to participate
bo_sox: rdrivera
celaph: no check
worcej: Chaqa
rdrivera: refuses to participate
damo: refuses to participate

N2 dog checks:

worcej: bozo
Bonatogether: no check
lfischl: worcej
Chaqa: rdrivera
bozo: worcej

My initial reaction D2 was that heartthrob and lfischl seemed likely to be town for responding quickly (Chaqa responded quickly also, but I was already suspecting him for other reasons). Also, bo_sox and worcej seemed likely to be town for defending the survey, because I doubt either would do that to try to pocket me when I had a good chance of being the DK. With celaph and rdrivera no longer in the game, Bonatogether, Kakarroto, and damo are the only remaining dissenters.

I still suspect Chaqa, so that leaves Bonatogether, Kakarroto, damo, and Chaqa as my scum pool.

damo didn't too? I guess my math is off then.

I still don't understand how your pool is just anti-surveys plus chaqa. Your survey still is very bad for town in this game and you don't seem to realize that. Why do you think RD was targeted? Surely not because he was a potential PR with his vanilla claim D1. It seems much more likely mafia is targeting anti-surveys to get rid of those opposing so they get more info about the dog. If my hunch is correct, maf worcej is also trying to smear those who didn't participate which couldn't be hit with the single shot they had. (I can't rule out that worcej is just stupidly wrong here though.)

I can understand that you don't see the dog survey as absolutely flawed and think the benefits outweigh the cost, but thinking the surviving resistance is mafia while all dead resistance was town is just a worldview that town bozo wouldn't have in my opinion. Well maybe I overestimated you, but you writing you don't think worcej would be trying to pocket you as mafia while you are doing mafia a favour is just ... just so ... I want to rip out my hair so stupidly stupid that is. And I think maf bo would be able to do so too, wouldn't cost him much if you turned out to be the day flip.

I missed your question about rdrivera. I think the mafia probably considered him a possible PR, but if his opposition to the survey was a factor, it probably was because you NKed him to make that argument.

[worcej]

maybe this has changed in the interim - but worcestershire has not made any real substantive contributions while making a lot of commentary posts

pot meet kettle?

i killed two townies - what have you done?

Not something to be proud of if you’re town…

[worcej]

[...]
That was also the post that made me vote for Chaqa D1, as it seemed unlikely Chaqa forgot about the existence of this game considering he confirmed participation after the game filled and not long before it started. Also, I thought the D1 thing was a potential scum ploy, although I did not consider at the time that it could be a signal to bus him.

What do you think about the situation of worcej then, since he was the last to post in the signup thread with a note of hurry but then didn't even vote on D1? It seems unlikely worcej forgot about the existence of this game considering he posted after the game was filled and confirmation took place, no?

worcej did not claim to have forgotten the game existed, I believe he just indicated he was not aware it had started when he first posted D1.

This is accurate. And then I FUBAR’ed EOD1 because I was mistaken on the phase time.

[bozotheclown]

Have you ever given a single explanation for scumming me?

Even Damo doesn’t think I’m scum, he just wants an info flip.

Yes:
1. your first post where you said you forgot about the game and were OK getting DKed D1
2. your D1 vote for damo
3. your unexplained strong town read of lfischl, which could be an attempt to set him up for a mis-kill
4. moving off my wagon D2 when I was in the lead, then moving back at EOD

1. Man I didn't even set up the bot, of course I forgot about the game.
2. Damo is scummy
3. TBH I forgot the exact line of thought that led to it, but I'm relatively sure it was because scum!Lfischl has no reason to switch to Bunny over me and breaking a tie is very towny
4. Are you for real? I voted Bona as a joke, and then I wasn't around for like 10 hours. When I got back, I was on my phone intermittent, and as soon as I got a chance to see a vote count I voted for you over celaph, who I town read.

I think you're one of those people who just can't see any other playstyle but yours as valid, or you're scum.

Is that the only reason you have for scum reading me?

[worcej]

[...]
The part about finding my checking ghug suspicious is what I was talking about earlier. First, it contradicts the position that there is no value in the survey. Second, it looks like fishing for players to vote for me, setting up a move to my wagon if I get some town votes.

I never said there is no value in the survey. It is just much more hurtful to town than any benefits gained. And starting the survey with the N1 target which disposition you and everyone knows of IS suspicious, you can't go wrong since everyone already knows the role and in case you're mafia you can signal your comrades to pick another save pick.

The second point is very strange and defensive for you to mention, you yourself were saying bona was very openly suspicious and didn't vote him, were you "fishing for townvotes to vote him, setting up a move to his wagon if he gets town votes"? Do you realize most of the time when someone mentions a thing they find suspicious they don't instantly vote that person? I voted you later because you didn't seem to see any reason that came from the 'veto-pet-survey' arguments.

[...]
I did not say the dog was useless, but I do not agree that there is useful information for the mafia in the survey.

You make a reasonable counter argument, but for most of this post you seem to be addressing me like you think I am town who has not thought of the things you mention, but then in the end conclude I am mafia. It just seems to me that you know I am town and are just trying to set me up for a mis-kill.

no, you said

the dog power is not significant enough to be overly worried about giving away their identity

but giving up the dogs identity renders it powerless since mafia can just pick the dog up. Maybe you didn't think it through, but I would've judged town bozo to do so.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I make sense. And of course I'm addressing you as town, it wouldn't make sense addressing you as mafia since mafia wouldn't care or even change their mind at this point. I don't know if you are town or mafia, but if you are mafia the whole discussion between us is moot and irrelevant, but if you are actually town bozo I want to reach you and make you realize how awful (at least I think it's awful, maybe god thread can be the judge of that) that survey is. I don't want to vote you out if you are town, I want to rescue you in that case. But all that resistance before is just strengthening the side of me that fears that you are mafia. Understanding that I come from a point of logic here gives me hope though.

If you are playing a mafia strategy of aggressively pushing mis-kills each day, I like it. I tried that one time.

bona tried that some time ago too when he was mafia. I find it hard though to distinguish when he pushes as town compared to when he is mafia. Currently I'm leaning strongly pro town bona

There are 3 mafia, I can see you and Kakarroto as scum teammates here.

and I can see a mafia team with you and worcej here. What I've learned about the span of the games I played here though is it never is that easy.

kak oozes town

Kak strikes me as someone who can sound town in any alignment. Kak is incredibly skilled in communication and maintains a good reputation so people will read more thoroughly and reflect more on what he says.

That being said - besides Kak’s opinions, I don’t see much else until his recent pushes at me that I am apparently scummy.

[Chaqa]

Yes:
1. your first post where you said you forgot about the game and were OK getting DKed D1
2. your D1 vote for damo
3. your unexplained strong town read of lfischl, which could be an attempt to set him up for a mis-kill
4. moving off my wagon D2 when I was in the lead, then moving back at EOD

1. Man I didn't even set up the bot, of course I forgot about the game.
2. Damo is scummy
3. TBH I forgot the exact line of thought that led to it, but I'm relatively sure it was because scum!Lfischl has no reason to switch to Bunny over me and breaking a tie is very towny
4. Are you for real? I voted Bona as a joke, and then I wasn't around for like 10 hours. When I got back, I was on my phone intermittent, and as soon as I got a chance to see a vote count I voted for you over celaph, who I town read.

I think you're one of those people who just can't see any other playstyle but yours as valid, or you're scum.

Is that the only reason you have for scum reading me?

At this point it’s mostly just general scumminess, but originally it was due to you not doing a pre-pet survey of who everyone would pet.

[Chaqa]

Idk maybe I’m in a tunnel on Bozo

I think Damo and worcej are objectively scummier now

[Bonatogether]

Usually at least one scum tries to get me mis-killed over an objectionable survey, but maybe all of my voters today are town.

this is an interesting statement - what prompted this @bozo

[Bonatogether]

a soul read?

In zoomer terms, it's a bussin vibe

Aight just never seen that before

this exchange hurt me a second time

[Bonatogether]

actual vcu

bozotheclown (3): rdrivera2005, Kakarroto, celaph
celaph (3): Bonatogether, bo_sox48, bozotheclown
Bonatogether (2): worcej, Chaqa
Chaqa (1): damo666
Kakarroto (1): heartthrob24909
heartthrob24909 (1): lfischl

currently no one is set to die at the end of day 2 in 35mins

was this tvt or tvs?

[Bonatogether]

im not sure

thread dynamics don't really send a clear signal, as i read it

[Bonatogether]

it's self-evident why that information is valuable

It isn’t actually self-evident because, again, why does scum care who the town thinks is a PR?

what a guy
what a quote

[Bonatogether]

finally last page

hmm, damo and celaph ... I haven't seen a good example in here for why celaph is mafia, he could be, sure, don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced though. As I said, I'm a branded child considering damo since I always make the wrong decision considering him (except the one time we both were mafia and I voted him out after coming in during the game?) (also would me not voting damo right now make that wrong? argh!?!)

I'm not too sure of bozo anymore. He is at least receptive and seems to come around. Personally, I disliked worcej's reaction on the issue more. But what if he is just a misguided town? Argh. Need to think more.

Regarding Worcej, my primary concern is whether he was using the survey as an excuse to be active while constraining the issues he had to concern himself with. My gut just says it's more likely he is town who honestly believes what he is saying.

[Bonatogether]

Not gonna make a move but damo is my #1 tomorrow pretty much regardless of how this goes

bot says you're currently voting with damo?

[Bonatogether]

I ran some mafia AI I found online and it said the scum team is Bonatogether, celaph, and Kakarroto.

lmao

i think that's an entirely town list

[Bonatogether]

@Bona: You had been voting and sussing Bozo all game basically. Why did you vote with him against celaph?

idr my read on him d1 but i don't think it was a scumread

i kind of sussed him d2 but the day kind of drew out that nothing useful was happening and i wasn't feeling voting him. idk why he voted with me, ask him

feeling more suspicious of bozo now
got tunnel vision on celaph

[Bonatogether]

A Chaqa, damo, lfischl scum team is not unreasonable, with Chaqa's unexplained D1 damo vote, Chaqa's unexplained lfischl town read, and damo's suggestion of a Chaqa information DK with little effort to make it happen.

You really think that I as third man would urge an info flip on Chaqa with the reasoning he is co-aligned with lfischl? Come on!

I still maintain Chaqa is the best flip tomorrow (and if he slips scum Bozo is quasi clear).

This should be D3 D4 D5 strategy

D3 kill Chaqa, if scum kill lfischl D4, if town kill Bozo D4. If D4 does not result is a scum flip kill me D5 (if I'm here).

this makes no sense

[bozotheclown]

Usually at least one scum tries to get me mis-killed over an objectionable survey, but maybe all of my voters today are town.

this is an interesting statement - what prompted this @bozo

It was just an observation, I do not remember who was voting for me when I said that.