M1023: Mafarmia [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

[Kakarroto]

I'll just get on my soap box right now that I think bozo's survey could actually be value added down the road and those being obstinate to it are just stuck in their little singular box mindset that usually causes town to lose games.

Like, seriously, these votes on bozo are bad.

##vote Bona

please explain your information why those votes on bozo are bad. Do you know his alignment?

I disagree - the ones protesting most of all strike me as more likely scum because it’s a consistent ~vibe~ in this community to protect PRs as if they are a godsend and not risk anything for additional information.

please correct me but are you saying that we should not protect our PR's? I mean sure, PR's aren't the sole reason games are won and people should make effort as vanilla towns, but this sounds like you want to get rid of all PR's

Apologies for lack of engagement, it's been a pretty busy time for me.

The main discussion point at the moment seems to be the survey. The main advantage I can see is that it will get progressively more uncomfortable for scum. The dog itself has to make it up (not that's a problem of itself and anybody finding the dog has to invent subsequently (again not a problem). The problem is I don't see how we gain and I am worried that there are so many antis, there may be a downside I cannot see for myself. I trust rdr and for that reason I am not going to participate.

I don't think Bozo has done this maliciously and suspect the votes on him are misplaced.

This is a fair take/analysis of the situation. The ones being stubborn about the survey are making any value impossible to get down the road.

Considering, if an objector is town, that a substantial amount of their team has already participated at this point, they should just participate and actually try to cooperate versus being a stick in the mud at this point.

So you're saying town player can't just give that information later? It is just now that everyone has to comply because someone started a survey?

How about we all just declare our roles we got? Anyone objecting is wrong and they should just participate and actually try to cooperate versus being a stick in the mud at this point. DON'T TRY TO SHAME ME INTO DOING A THING THAT I PERCEIVE HURTFUL. Especially since you skipped two posts (RD and mine) who stated the reasons (which bozo actually responded to) for why we do this and seem to pick only the ones you're comfortable answering. I'm slowly getting the vibe we're focussing on the wrong person here.

[lfischl]

personally I liked his D1 and his response to bozo's survey seemed pretty towny to me

give details

give posts

explain why the posts are towny to me

seconded

Didn't pet anyone because when I first read it I thought it was a one time ability.

moreso cel's response to the survey than the posts, I doubt that any scum would play a lie like that, feel like you can get caught way too easily for that

fischy, you implied that celaph was scum in this post: your only other interaction with him had notably like no things going on

what's the deal with you? with heart, you'd expressed disagreement with him once and now he's your top scumread, but you basically call celaph scum and he's one of your top townreads? what's up?

Didn't read the celaph post correctly sorry, but idk its been a while since I've played, so I would understand people not remembering that I have been hella inactive before

fischy that doesn't make any sense. being inactive is like the lfischl stereotype and you said it yourself - any townie would know that that's NAI - so celaph painting that as scummy is very interesting. you don't push back on that at all?

you also don't explain your heart scumread or where it comes from at all. i'm very interested and i'd love to hear about it

For heart, I almost feel like we are getting played, like the basic noob shows up and everyone is like "oh if he is more experienced he would do this" and then he's actually scum. Just my thoughts

[Bonatogether]

give details

give posts

explain why the posts are towny to me

seconded

Didn't pet anyone because when I first read it I thought it was a one time ability.

moreso cel's response to the survey than the posts, I doubt that any scum would play a lie like that, feel like you can get caught way too easily for that

Didn't read the celaph post correctly sorry, but idk its been a while since I've played, so I would understand people not remembering that I have been hella inactive before

fischy that doesn't make any sense. being inactive is like the lfischl stereotype and you said it yourself - any townie would know that that's NAI - so celaph painting that as scummy is very interesting. you don't push back on that at all?

you also don't explain your heart scumread or where it comes from at all. i'm very interested and i'd love to hear about it

For heart, I almost feel like we are getting played, like the basic noob shows up and everyone is like "oh if he is more experienced he would do this" and then he's actually scum. Just my thoughts

copying because you didn't respond to it:
fischy that doesn't make any sense. being inactive is like the lfischl stereotype and you said it yourself - any townie would know that that's NAI - so celaph painting that as scummy is very interesting. you don't push back on that at all?

i believe one person said that. has he done anything actually scummy, though? or do you just want to avoid collective egg on our face if he's scum who we let slip?

[celaph]

town celaph would know that's totally on par for the fisch as any alignment

You're right that my reason was bad, it's just annoying.

[Bonatogether]

town celaph would know that's totally on par for the fisch as any alignment

You're right that my reason was bad, it's just annoying.

lmao

[Bonatogether]

[bo_sox48]

I want to townread celaph for that but I also remember how bad his scum game is

[Bonatogether]

if you're not going to vote celaph, i can vote fischy

happy with either atm

[bo_sox48]

give details

give posts

explain why the posts are towny to me

seconded

Didn't pet anyone because when I first read it I thought it was a one time ability.

moreso cel's response to the survey than the posts, I doubt that any scum would play a lie like that, feel like you can get caught way too easily for that

Didn't read the celaph post correctly sorry, but idk its been a while since I've played, so I would understand people not remembering that I have been hella inactive before

fischy that doesn't make any sense. being inactive is like the lfischl stereotype and you said it yourself - any townie would know that that's NAI - so celaph painting that as scummy is very interesting. you don't push back on that at all?

you also don't explain your heart scumread or where it comes from at all. i'm very interested and i'd love to hear about it

For heart, I almost feel like we are getting played, like the basic noob shows up and everyone is like "oh if he is more experienced he would do this" and then he's actually scum. Just my thoughts

What about heart’s play suggests noob scum over noob town? Fwiw I am very open to this theory but it’s your homework not mine

Why do you think celaph is lying if he is scum?

[bo_sox48]

if you're not going to vote celaph, i can vote fischy

happy with either atm

I’m not super in love with celaph but not ready to wagon him over damo or fischyyyy right now

[Bonatogether]

##vote lfischl

[Kakarroto]

- Why are Chaqa and I in the same category when he has been here far more than I have? Is his participation that bad to you?
- What is “his thing” that rdr posted, and what did it accomplish to you to get him out of the needs more category?
- If you do not have a read on damo and lfischl, why do you not think they need to contribute more? Is your lack of a read on them your fault or theirs?
- Are you scared of Bona?

-) yes, at the time, all I read from chaqa's posts were 'placeholder' and yes, there weren't many posts (I think 3 at the time?). Which might be due to different circumstances, in case of chaqa contrary to ghug such a thing is NAI. Also chaqa's strength lies in direct communication with others so I also wanted him to gear up his engine
-) I think everybody should know already, but his '100% vannilla town/sheep/...' is something he only does as vanilla town (well maybe as miller too since he doesn't know if he were it). Until now, in every game he did that, he was indeed vanilla town, has a 100% truth rate. I doubt he would sacrifice that in this game, especially uncontested and on D1.
-) because it wouldn't be fair since I felt they did contribute, but in their case it is more a deficiency of me reading them. Especially damo I've read more than once wrong (in fact mafia used my wish to vote him out the thing to make me their winning day mis vote next day).
-) Bona is a fly guy. I'm afraid my sympathy for him makes me reading him too townsided and overlook any signs of him being mafia, but I hope I compensate for it.

I vehemently disagree with your second point but I don’t want to drag it into wifom territory so I’ll just leave it at that.

How do you suppose you could improve your read on damo and lfischl without them doing anything more, and why didn’t you just do whatever that is to begin with?

I don’t understand your last point. It’s written in English but that’s as much as I was able to decipher.

I acknowledge your position, I didn't want to change your mind on this since I might be wrong on this (hopefully far in the future) but inform you on why since you asked.

Because I have limited capacity and don't see priority there right now or then. If I knew what to do, I'd do it, I tried to make sense of damo for myself, but seem not be able to figure him out. At this point I fear I would ruin anything if I focus on damo. You are right about lfischl I should check the spot out but right now I'm a bit occupied with other things, I hope you noticed.

Basically it's vibes and I didn't see much concern for him being mafia. Also he has a sympathy bonus because I just like to play together with him whatever game it is and I try to not letting it influence me. I hope this is clearer?

[...]
What kind of mafia team have you played on that kills N1 based on a D1 vote?

webdips'

Who wants to ##VOTE damo

to be fair a few of damo's reactions made me consider this but as stated before, I made big mistakes here (as town and as mafia so I guess it's nai?) considering damo so excuse me if I'm cautious to not vote a potential town damo out

[bo_sox48]

What reactions made you want to consider voting for damo, who you also neither scumread nor townread?

[celaph]

celaph also hasn't voted - interesting

Yeah, I don't have scumreads that I love right now. I guess I'm most persuaded to ##vote Bozo for the way he's pushed Kak, but I feel safer behind this nice large hedge.

[bo_sox48]

Lfischl is a wagon, so you should probably make up your mind there Kaka or at the very least make it clear why you aren’t ready to go that way if you haven’t made up your mind, even though you consider going for damo when you haven’t made up your mind on him

[celaph]

Personally not a fan of any of the wagon, would support a ##heart vote though

not a valid vote

also -

Personally not a fan of any of the wagon, would support a ##heart vote though

vote celaph with me?

##vote hea
Not a fan of that one

Is this just because his vote for Kak was bad?

[bozotheclown]

[...]
The part about finding my checking ghug suspicious is what I was talking about earlier. First, it contradicts the position that there is no value in the survey. Second, it looks like fishing for players to vote for me, setting up a move to my wagon if I get some town votes.

I never said there is no value in the survey. It is just much more hurtful to town than any benefits gained. And starting the survey with the N1 target which disposition you and everyone knows of IS suspicious, you can't go wrong since everyone already knows the role and in case you're mafia you can signal your comrades to pick another save pick.

The second point is very strange and defensive for you to mention, you yourself were saying bona was very openly suspicious and didn't vote him, were you "fishing for townvotes to vote him, setting up a move to his wagon if he gets town votes"? Do you realize most of the time when someone mentions a thing they find suspicious they don't instantly vote that person? I voted you later because you didn't seem to see any reason that came from the 'veto-pet-survey' arguments.

[...]
I did not say the dog was useless, but I do not agree that there is useful information for the mafia in the survey.

You make a reasonable counter argument, but for most of this post you seem to be addressing me like you think I am town who has not thought of the things you mention, but then in the end conclude I am mafia. It just seems to me that you know I am town and are just trying to set me up for a mis-kill.

no, you said

the dog power is not significant enough to be overly worried about giving away their identity

but giving up the dogs identity renders it powerless since mafia can just pick the dog up. Maybe you didn't think it through, but I would've judged town bozo to do so.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I make sense. And of course I'm addressing you as town, it wouldn't make sense addressing you as mafia since mafia wouldn't care or even change their mind at this point. I don't know if you are town or mafia, but if you are mafia the whole discussion between us is moot and irrelevant, but if you are actually town bozo I want to reach you and make you realize how awful (at least I think it's awful, maybe god thread can be the judge of that) that survey is. I don't want to vote you out if you are town, I want to rescue you in that case. But all that resistance before is just strengthening the side of me that fears that you are mafia. Understanding that I come from a point of logic here gives me hope though.

into the omgus stretch

If you are playing a mafia strategy of aggressively pushing mis-kills each day, I like it. I tried that one time.

bona tried that some time ago too when he was mafia. I find it hard though to distinguish when he pushes as town compared to when he is mafia. Currently I'm leaning strongly pro town bona

you can't say i'm openwolfing and that you can't vote me

There are 3 mafia, I can see you and Kakarroto as scum teammates here.

and I can see a mafia team with you and worcej here. What I've learned about the span of the games I played here though is it never is that easy.

The point of the survey from my perspective was to force the mafia to fabricate a response, and to provide information to the dog, which in the best case scenario could catch a scum. However, that required full participation by town, which obviously has not happened.

[Bonatogether]

celaph also hasn't voted - interesting

Yeah, I don't have scumreads that I love right now. I guess I'm most persuaded to ##vote Bozo for the way he's pushed Kak, but I feel safer behind this nice large hedge.

nice prop of the largest wagon while the fisch is gaining momentum. gotta love it.

[Bonatogether]

Lfischl is a wagon, so you should probably make up your mind there Kaka or at the very least make it clear why you aren’t ready to go that way if you haven’t made up your mind, even though you consider going for damo when you haven’t made up your mind on him

agree with this @kak

[bo_sox48]

I could be down for celaph I suppose, lol