M1023: Mafarmia [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

[lfischl]

I'll just get on my soap box right now that I think bozo's survey could actually be value added down the road and those being obstinate to it are just stuck in their little singular box mindset that usually causes town to lose games.

Like, seriously, these votes on bozo are bad.

##vote Bona

Why do you think the survey is valuable?

It could be valuable and it isn't costing us anything of merit. Bona dismisses the fake pets inserted by scum to mean nothing, but they could very easily be their downfall if they fucked up their claims.

Several people are claiming it shows who we think could be a PR, but I fall in the camp of the fact scum don't give a fuck who the sheep think are a PR - they're going to go with their own information gathering attempts. Let's say we all ended up petting the same person - does that mean they will kill there for sure? Fuck no it doesn't.

That's fair

[celaph]

bozo givith cringe reasoning

are not the scum more likely to lie (with literally no blowback possibility) versus singling themselves out by refusing to answer

Bona's spot on here.

[rdrivera2005]

Earlier I asked people about ghug and why the mafia would target him. The answers so far were pretty decent (I'd disagree with the ones who would say 'all' or name me specifically who would've targeted him since I'd preferred someone else to ruthlessly remove them from the game but that is just a minor appendix), there is however one reason no one spoke out (well Chaqa did kinda though in reverse logic):

Nobody said ghug was targeted because of his vote. Not even a short mention with 'oh it might be silly but ...', it's like everyone forgot that as an option (besides with an asterisk Chaqa). There were some games where mafia did target someone who voted for them and since most don't know Chaqa's alignment I at least expected that reasoning to come up.

But all I got was 'ghug is a respected member of the community and dangerous for mafia'. I'm not sure what to think about it exactly, but something doesn't add up. I hope it's not because I'm crazy.

Nobody considered this possibility probably because we never saw a NK on N1 decided because of D1 voting.

[rdrivera2005]

I'll just get on my soap box right now that I think bozo's survey could actually be value added down the road and those being obstinate to it are just stuck in their little singular box mindset that usually causes town to lose games.

Like, seriously, these votes on bozo are bad.

##vote Bona

Why do you think the survey is valuable?

Because you’re talking about it

Abd why this is good? We are spending most of the day discussing survey mechanics which fits perfectly scum agenda.

[Bonatogether]

I'll just get on my soap box right now that I think bozo's survey could actually be value added down the road and those being obstinate to it are just stuck in their little singular box mindset that usually causes town to lose games.

Like, seriously, these votes on bozo are bad.

##vote Bona

Why do you think the survey is valuable?

It could be valuable and it isn't costing us anything of merit. Bona dismisses the fake pets inserted by scum to mean nothing, but they could very easily be their downfall if they fucked up their claims.

Several people are claiming it shows who we think could be a PR, but I fall in the camp of the fact scum don't give a fuck who the sheep think are a PR - they're going to go with their own information gathering attempts. Let's say we all ended up petting the same person - does that mean they will kill there for sure? Fuck no it doesn't.

call me when we catch any scum with this

fuck yeah it means that everyone thought that this guy was pr lmao

[Bonatogether]

It's still better than nothing at an honest cost of nothing.

the cost is medium
the benefits are nil

i do not understand why this is a sticking point

And here is why we're different - it's actually this:

the cost is nil
the benefits are medium

Town should want to build upon information to develop potential connections and facts for future flips. Wanting to limit any information gathering is inherently scummy.

what information have we gained

riddle me this

[Bonatogether]

waking up early sucks

[bo_sox48]

Why do you think the survey is valuable?

Because you’re talking about it

Abd why this is good? We are spending most of the day discussing survey mechanics which fits perfectly scum agenda.

How so?

[heartthrob24909]

##vote Kak
I'm leaning the way of the survey is a good thing in the interest of general info gain even if earlier I wasn't sure exactly how we'd use the info

[bozotheclown]

it gives info on who they think is likely to be PR

And why are you putting so much value in this? To me, it’s a red herring and the value comes in that town can signal the dog while also forcing scum to put their neck out with fake claims for pets

Only an incredible stupid scum will fake a claim. They can claim a scan on Ghug. They can claim they didn't plwant to pet. They can claim they forget to pet. They can claim the real scum pet if they missed. They can claim a pet on another scum. And there probably many other options.

Meanwhile townies are giving info to scum about who they think are PRs.
And two people already also claimed the result, which if they are town and not tryng to confuse scum just make the pool smaller for scum.

If you are right about what the mafia would do, that seems like useful information.

Anyone claiming their result is not because of the survey.

[bozotheclown]

Earlier I asked people about ghug and why the mafia would target him. The answers so far were pretty decent (I'd disagree with the ones who would say 'all' or name me specifically who would've targeted him since I'd preferred someone else to ruthlessly remove them from the game but that is just a minor appendix), there is however one reason no one spoke out (well Chaqa did kinda though in reverse logic):

Nobody said ghug was targeted because of his vote. Not even a short mention with 'oh it might be silly but ...', it's like everyone forgot that as an option (besides with an asterisk Chaqa). There were some games where mafia did target someone who voted for them and since most don't know Chaqa's alignment I at least expected that reasoning to come up.

But all I got was 'ghug is a respected member of the community and dangerous for mafia'. I'm not sure what to think about it exactly, but something doesn't add up. I hope it's not because I'm crazy.

Nobody considered this possibility probably because we never saw a NK on N1 decided because of D1 voting.

It happens, as in M73, which you should be aware.

[bozotheclown]

Why do you think the survey is valuable?

Because you’re talking about it

Abd why this is good? We are spending most of the day discussing survey mechanics which fits perfectly scum agenda.

You are free to discuss something else. If I flip today and you find out that I am town, who do you think are likely to be the 3 mafia? Or, if you are sure I am mafia, who do you think my teammates are?

[bozotheclown]

I think we should put some pressure on the mafia and have everyone state who they dog-checked N1, obviously without giving the result.

I checked ghug N1.

I don't think we want this, really don't like this. Depending on our behaviour, mafia would have a much easier time to predict who's the dog and I think it's hard to not let that influence the scan your reads.

Like if you suspected someone before and now suddenly don't with that name reveal you've just helped mafia.

Also it's just a coincidence you scanned ghug who was the target of the mafia action, I presume? Naah, I don't like this, not one bit.

The part about finding my checking ghug suspicious is what I was talking about earlier. First, it contradicts the position that there is no value in the survey. Second, it looks like fishing for players to vote for me, setting up a move to my wagon if I get some town votes.

[bozotheclown]

[...]
It is unlikely anyone will give away the identity of the dog by just stating who they checked, and the dog is not a very powerful enough PR to be that worried about protecting their identity. I think the dog check has the potential to be more valuable.

What the heck are you talking about, the sheepdog is the most powerful role we have, saving a townie, clearing a townie, clearing themselves and being able to participate in the next day vote. The later the dog survives the more powerful he becomes with his vote (after a successful save).

What else do we have? A one shot cop with a miller and a godfather? Your scan is weak, you can't guarantee it is useful, you have to be really careful who to scan.

The squirrel? Geh, just go home bozo.

[...]

There are 3 mafia, they couldn't all say they checked ghug, and there is risk in accidently claiming a check on the dog without knowing they are the dog. There is little risk of revealing the identity of the dog to the mafia, since the dog can safely claim a fake check, and the dog power is not significant enough to be overly worried about giving away their identity.

Assuming the mafia did not check the dog, they had the choice of claiming a check on ghug, claiming a check on someone who may or not may not be the dog, claiming they did not check anyone, or refusing to answer. If they did check the dog, only one would want to give the real dog as their check.

So, the useful results are:
1. the reaction to the survey
2. the potential for the mafia to fake a check on the real dog without knowing the identity of the dog

If you would just think for a second who the mafia could name you would see how bad this take is. There is no chance the mafia would overlook that to use it but would be happy to stay silent since that is a major flaw in your argument. I'd love to slap the reason why into your face but RD said it might be wise to not do so, so I'll wait maybe I'm overlooking something why I shouldn't do that, can't think of everything.

And again, THE DOG IS OUR MOST POWERFUL PR, WE SHOULD GIVE OUR LIVES FOR HIM, again with this stupid pushing of that flawed reasoning. Even fake claiming dog is out of the question, since even if no one had pet that person, it takes just a night to confirm it WITHOUT OUTING THE DOG. So for the future DEAR DOG, DON'T BOTHER TO REACT TO A FAKECLAIM, WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT THE NEXT NIGHT WITHOUT YOU OUTING!!!

And yes, I give you the reaction to that survey is useful, but actual data mostly benefits mafia here and only the refusal or faking data for it is a good town play. But mafia has a very good way to avoid nominating the dog in their 'pets'. Even if they don't do that, the chance for them hitting the dog is low. Town bozo would've noticed all of that. Maf bozo would be happy no one ever would think about that.

##vote bozo

I did not say the dog was useless, but I do not agree that there is useful information for the mafia in the survey.

You make a reasonable counter argument, but for most of this post you seem to be addressing me like you think I am town who has not thought of the things you mention, but then in the end conclude I am mafia. It just seems to me that you know I am town and are just trying to set me up for a mis-kill.

[bo_sox48]

##vote Kak
I'm leaning the way of the survey is a good thing in the interest of general info gain even if earlier I wasn't sure exactly how we'd use the info

Are you voting for Kaka or against bozo?

[Chaqa]

Earlier I asked people about ghug and why the mafia would target him. The answers so far were pretty decent (I'd disagree with the ones who would say 'all' or name me specifically who would've targeted him since I'd preferred someone else to ruthlessly remove them from the game but that is just a minor appendix), there is however one reason no one spoke out (well Chaqa did kinda though in reverse logic):

Nobody said ghug was targeted because of his vote. Not even a short mention with 'oh it might be silly but ...', it's like everyone forgot that as an option (besides with an asterisk Chaqa). There were some games where mafia did target someone who voted for them and since most don't know Chaqa's alignment I at least expected that reasoning to come up.

But all I got was 'ghug is a respected member of the community and dangerous for mafia'. I'm not sure what to think about it exactly, but something doesn't add up. I hope it's not because I'm crazy.

+town points to Kak for this point out

[Chaqa]

like if they wanna play it cool, name a scummate

otherwise, they got a 7/8 or 8/9 chance of naming a genuine non-doc player

like idk who yall think you're gonna catch with this dumb shit survey

It's still better than nothing at an honest cost of nothing.

Don't doubt bona. #inBonaWeTrust

[Bonatogether]

##vote Kak
I'm leaning the way of the survey is a good thing in the interest of general info gain even if earlier I wasn't sure exactly how we'd use the info

nooo heart

terrible take

[bozotheclown]

So, almost missed EOD. Why Chaqa and why Bo?

If you were online for EOD, why did you never place a meaningful vote?

[Chaqa]

Earlier I asked people about ghug and why the mafia would target him. The answers so far were pretty decent (I'd disagree with the ones who would say 'all' or name me specifically who would've targeted him since I'd preferred someone else to ruthlessly remove them from the game but that is just a minor appendix), there is however one reason no one spoke out (well Chaqa did kinda though in reverse logic):

Nobody said ghug was targeted because of his vote. Not even a short mention with 'oh it might be silly but ...', it's like everyone forgot that as an option (besides with an asterisk Chaqa). There were some games where mafia did target someone who voted for them and since most don't know Chaqa's alignment I at least expected that reasoning to come up.

But all I got was 'ghug is a respected member of the community and dangerous for mafia'. I'm not sure what to think about it exactly, but something doesn't add up. I hope it's not because I'm crazy.

Respected is a stretch... He typically lives longer into games because of the fact he's confrontational and doesn't usually rally the town in effective ways (my thoughts when I've been scum against him)

Anyways, the vote: ghug voting for Chaqa doesn't really move my needle in any way. I'm far to used to him scumming Chaqa for little reason or just not liking Chaqa's method of play at a given time.

i'd say ghug is respected

agree

No one respects ghug more than ghug.

So I say he killed himself