Austria vs Bots

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Trigfea63
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Re: Austria vs Bots

#401 Post by Trigfea63 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:21 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:52 am
These moves feel right to me. I'm going to ready up. I could be guessing wrong, but I'm not going to change my mind. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty good! England again moved exactly as I predicted. Germany ordered all support-holds. England built another army, in Edinburgh, to replace the one destroyed at Piedmont. It would be great if those armies convoyed into German territory, but I seriously doubt they will.
For the Spr '15 moves, I'm thinking more of the same, advance the fleets as much as possible:

ION--NAP
AEG-->ION supported by ADR
ROM-->TYS (to cut support for England's TUN-->ION)
TUS-->GoL (to bounce)
APU support-hold VEN

Hopefully, England will again use WES to defend TYS, and not support the Spain fleet's move to GoL.

It's also worth taking a moment now to figure out the centers I'll need to take to get to 18. I'm at 11. Tunis, Marseilles, Spain, and Portugal would be 15. So I'll need three out of Brest, Paris, Liverpool, and London. Or something else to substitute. That seems doable with mainly fleet power coming through the Med.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#402 Post by DougJoe » Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:25 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:21 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:52 am
These moves feel right to me. I'm going to ready up. I could be guessing wrong, but I'm not going to change my mind. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Pretty good! England again moved exactly as I predicted. Germany ordered all support-holds. England built another army, in Edinburgh, to replace the one destroyed at Piedmont. It would be great if those armies convoyed into German territory, but I seriously doubt they will.
For the Spr '15 moves, I'm thinking more of the same, advance the fleets as much as possible:

ION--NAP
AEG-->ION supported by ADR
ROM-->TYS (to cut support for England's TUN-->ION)
TUS-->GoL (to bounce)
APU support-hold VEN

Hopefully, England will again use WES to defend TYS, and not support the Spain fleet's move to GoL.

It's also worth taking a moment now to figure out the centers I'll need to take to get to 18. I'm at 11. Tunis, Marseilles, Spain, and Portugal would be 15. So I'll need three out of Brest, Paris, Liverpool, and London. Or something else to substitute. That seems doable with mainly fleet power coming through the Med.
I think all that seems like a good plan.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#403 Post by Trigfea63 » Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:14 am

Alright. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Yep. The Med moves went as expected. Also, a possibly interesting development in the North: England did convoy off the island, to Norway. And his Norway army went to Finland. Is Sweden on the chopping block? Germany kind of "owes" England a center, for Marseilles.

I've now got 4 on TYS and could take it by force in the Autumn. I'm considering NAP-->TYS supported by TUS, ROM, and ION, plus ADR support-hold ION. If England ordered SPA-->GoL again, the dislodged TYS fleet would have no retreat and would be destroyed. For Spr '16, England would be in GoL, but he would have to choose between defending GoL or Tunis. I think that's how it would shake out. I'm going to let this one marinate for a bit.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#404 Post by DougJoe » Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:59 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:14 am
Alright. Here goes:

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Yep. The Med moves went as expected. Also, a possibly interesting development in the North: England did convoy off the island, to Norway. And his Norway army went to Finland. Is Sweden on the chopping block? Germany kind of "owes" England a center, for Marseilles.

I've now got 4 on TYS and could take it by force in the Autumn. I'm considering NAP-->TYS supported by TUS, ROM, and ION, plus ADR support-hold ION. If England ordered SPA-->GoL again, the dislodged TYS fleet would have no retreat and would be destroyed. For Spr '16, England would be in GoL, but he would have to choose between defending GoL or Tunis. I think that's how it would shake out. I'm going to let this one marinate for a bit.
Yeah, what the heck is England up to?

I like the initial plan, especially the notion of dislodging TYS and having it be destroyed - I was thinking along the same lines earlier.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#405 Post by DougJoe » Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:44 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:53 pm
Agree with army Kiel. Still, you have a guess to defend Belgium in the Spring unless England intervenes (F LON-->ENG could be helpful). Also agree on Turkey looking strong. As is Russia BTW, maybe more of a concern for Germany. You have to root for Italy to pick up Trieste and Vienna in the carve-up of Austria. That never lasts too long against a solid R/T though.
I did end up building army Kiel. Russia built army War, which I'm hoping is going to Galicia instead of Silesia. I don't like the fact that the R/T is on as, yes, bot Italy tends to get overwhelmed in these situations. Would be nice if I had another unit influence the east.

I'll try for Sweden again (even though I don't expect to get it, but otherwise I think I'm going to play a little more fast and loose vis-a-vis France and go Ruh & Mun S Bel-Bur, Kie-Hol. France can't take Bel without losing Bur, and I think the worst is if he takes it with Pic and then retreats Bur to Pic, which means that he'd have to guess between having Pic cover Par or Bel, and I think I'm ok with needing to make that guess if it happens.

There's also the option of convoying Kie-Liv, allowing England into Sweden if he tries for it again (and trying to hold Belgium with only Ruh) but I'm not sure I want to do that - Mos and War are easy enough to defend, although it would be nice to keep Russia off of Austria... Hm.

I think, though, I'm going to stick to the west...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... =on&turn=4

Well, it's a mixed bag.
Austria pushed Russia out of Bud and lost Tri and Ser. I hope he keeps Russia out of Bud in the fall, but we'll see.
Russia moved to Sil, not what I wanted to see.
Italy took Tri, but Turkey moved out of BLA to Con... hopefully Italy can hold him back at least for a little bit, but Turkey will get another build this year...
England supported me into Swe (good sign?) and took ENC (yay) but hopefully it's not just continuing to go for Belgium.
France took Bel from ENC, so he can only put a power of 2 on Bel.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#406 Post by DougJoe » Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:15 am

DougJoe wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:44 pm

Well, it's a mixed bag.
Austria pushed Russia out of Bud and lost Tri and Ser. I hope he keeps Russia out of Bud in the fall, but we'll see.
Russia moved to Sil, not what I wanted to see.
Italy took Tri, but Turkey moved out of BLA to Con... hopefully Italy can hold him back at least for a little bit, but Turkey will get another build this year...
England supported me into Swe (good sign?) and took ENC (yay) but hopefully it's not just continuing to go for Belgium.
France took Bel from ENC, so he can only put a power of 2 on Bel.
I went ahead and made the fall moves - tried to take Bel back from Bur, covered Berlin. Support held England in Nwy...

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Again, a mixed bag.

England support held Belgium, I honestly didn't expect that, so I didn't get Belgium back. I did guess correct on Berlin. No build for me. France gets one. Russia lost one and it was BLA. Italy used ADR to protect Trieste and Turkey pushed into ION.

Turkey built a fleet - Italy is in trouble. France built an army, not a Fleet.

If I don't get help from England, I'm not sure I can get France or Russia back. *sigh*

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#407 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:21 am

England's support-hold of Belgium was unfortunate. I never would have guessed that, either. It looked like an E/G was in the works. England just took the Channel from France by force in the spring. It was pretty clever how you vacated Belgium in the spring, then came back for it in the fall when you had France outgunned. It really should have worked.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#408 Post by Trigfea63 » Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:36 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:14 am
I've now got 4 on TYS and could take it by force in the Autumn. I'm considering NAP-->TYS supported by TUS, ROM, and ION, plus ADR support-hold ION. If England ordered SPA-->GoL again, the dislodged TYS fleet would have no retreat and would be destroyed. For Spr '16, England would be in GoL, but he would have to choose between defending GoL or Tunis. I think that's how it would shake out. I'm going to let this one marinate for a bit.
These moves still feel right, except I'm going to take TYS from Rome. Having a fleet in Naples for the next couple of turns seems probably more useful than having a fleet in Rome.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Again, no surprises. Englang just held in Finland and Norway. In the Med, England is so predictable, and seemingly so uninterested in setting up a defensive line, I'm becoming more optimistic of the possibility of soloing this board. On that score, I realized my 18-center count analysis a few posts ago overlooked the three Russian centers. Of course, I wouldn't hesitate to take Trieste, or Budapest, if I needed it as my 18th center. That said, I don't want to undermine the defensive line holding Germany at bay until it's really necessary.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#409 Post by Scmoo472 » Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:52 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Trigfea63 wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:14 am
I've now got 4 on TYS and could take it by force in the Autumn. I'm considering NAP-->TYS supported by TUS, ROM, and ION, plus ADR support-hold ION. If England ordered SPA-->GoL again, the dislodged TYS fleet would have no retreat and would be destroyed. For Spr '16, England would be in GoL, but he would have to choose between defending GoL or Tunis. I think that's how it would shake out. I'm going to let this one marinate for a bit.
These moves still feel right, except I'm going to take TYS from Rome. Having a fleet in Naples for the next couple of turns seems probably more useful than having a fleet in Rome.

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

Again, no surprises. Englang just held in Finland and Norway. In the Med, England is so predictable, and seemingly so uninterested in setting up a defensive line, I'm becoming more optimistic of the possibility of soloing this board. On that score, I realized my 18-center count analysis a few posts ago overlooked the three Russian centers. Of course, I wouldn't hesitate to take Trieste, or Budapest, if I needed it as my 18th center. That said, I don't want to undermine the defensive line holding Germany at bay until it's really necessary.
Turkey breaking through the Tyr/WM/Tun/GoL is one of my favorite positions when the line isn't fully stalemated. Just one thing to consider from Russia/Germany, Germany will flip supports to Vienna if you were to take Budapest and Trieste (presumably both on the same turn). But the German line isn't breakable until you can get around to Burgundy. That being said, those are two centers you can take, and still maintain the same line against Germany, thus keeping his line just holding, but it does supplement the need for any centers in England.
Trieste - Budapest - Tunis - Marseilles - Spain - Portugal - Paris or Brest would give you your 18.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#410 Post by Trigfea63 » Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:11 am

Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:52 am
Turkey breaking through the Tyr/WM/Tun/GoL is one of my favorite positions when the line isn't fully stalemated. Just one thing to consider from Russia/Germany, Germany will flip supports to Vienna if you were to take Budapest and Trieste (presumably both on the same turn). But the German line isn't breakable until you can get around to Burgundy. That being said, those are two centers you can take, and still maintain the same line against Germany, thus keeping his line just holding, but it does supplement the need for any centers in England.
Trieste - Budapest - Tunis - Marseilles - Spain - Portugal - Paris or Brest would give you your 18.
It's a good point. Budapest/Trieste don't necessarily have to be my last center. I guess I'll need another couple of armies to take those centers from Russia, especially if I want to take both on the same turn.

My current thinking for the upcoming Spr '16 is that England is likely to prioritize defending Tunis over GoL, which creates an opportunity:

TYS-->GoL supported by TUS
ION-->TYS supported by NAP
ADR-->ION

Or, maybe better, NAP-->TYS supported by ION, and ADR can remain in place. It's useful to have the fleet there if I want to attack Piedmont from Venice once I'm in GoL.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#411 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:12 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:11 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:52 am
Turkey breaking through the Tyr/WM/Tun/GoL is one of my favorite positions when the line isn't fully stalemated. Just one thing to consider from Russia/Germany, Germany will flip supports to Vienna if you were to take Budapest and Trieste (presumably both on the same turn). But the German line isn't breakable until you can get around to Burgundy. That being said, those are two centers you can take, and still maintain the same line against Germany, thus keeping his line just holding, but it does supplement the need for any centers in England.
Trieste - Budapest - Tunis - Marseilles - Spain - Portugal - Paris or Brest would give you your 18.
It's a good point. Budapest/Trieste don't necessarily have to be my last center. I guess I'll need another couple of armies to take those centers from Russia, especially if I want to take both on the same turn.

My current thinking for the upcoming Spr '16 is that England is likely to prioritize defending Tunis over GoL, which creates an opportunity:

TYS-->GoL supported by TUS
ION-->TYS supported by NAP
ADR-->ION

Or, maybe better, NAP-->TYS supported by ION, and ADR can remain in place. It's useful to have the fleet there if I want to attack Piedmont from Venice once I'm in GoL.
Again, seems reasonable. I agree with the thought about bot England protecting Tunis instead of GOL. My prediction is that England plays Tun S GOL-Tys, WMS S Tun. It might be obvious to the other humans here, but I think that GOL is strategically more important than Tun in this position.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#412 Post by DougJoe » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:06 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:21 am
England's support-hold of Belgium was unfortunate. I never would have guessed that, either. It looked like an E/G was in the works. England just took the Channel from France by force in the spring. It was pretty clever how you vacated Belgium in the spring, then came back for it in the fall when you had France outgunned. It really should have worked.
You win some, you lose some. :? At least I got Sweden so I didn't lose a unit. The funny thing is that England supported me into Sweden!

Spring 1904: I tried for Belgium again (just in case) and it still didn't work and my army in Bur got blown up. I forced my way into BAL and kept Russia out of Ber. Russia punched into Budapest and moved to Finland. Turkey was silly and tried for TYS.

Fall 1904: This turn was interesting. England, again, tried to convoy into Belgium (I guess he *really* wants it) and, because Russia kept on about Sweden, England snuck into St. Pete. France didn't do anything aggressive towards me (which is good because I incorrectly entered my orders with Ruh and Hol). Russia also got Vienna. France didn't do much, Turkey again failed to get into TYS. I kept Russia out of Berlin and rebuilt my missing army there. Russia built army Moscow and England built F Lvp, which I didn't expect - is he going to go after France now? He can't hold StP...

I really need to come up with a plan here. Where's my next center coming from? I can certainly tap Bur and use Hol to support Lon-Bel, but I'm not sure that helps me? Maybe that helps free up units to push west on Russia? Do I move to Tyo to help Italy? Convoy to Livonia? Try to get Warsaw somehow? Hm.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#413 Post by Trigfea63 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:21 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:06 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:21 am
England's support-hold of Belgium was unfortunate. I never would have guessed that, either. It looked like an E/G was in the works. England just took the Channel from France by force in the spring. It was pretty clever how you vacated Belgium in the spring, then came back for it in the fall when you had France outgunned. It really should have worked.
You win some, you lose some. :? At least I got Sweden so I didn't lose a unit. The funny thing is that England supported me into Sweden!

Spring 1904: I tried for Belgium again (just in case) and it still didn't work and my army in Bur got blown up. I forced my way into BAL and kept Russia out of Ber. Russia punched into Budapest and moved to Finland. Turkey was silly and tried for TYS.

Fall 1904: This turn was interesting. England, again, tried to convoy into Belgium (I guess he *really* wants it) and, because Russia kept on about Sweden, England snuck into St. Pete. France didn't do anything aggressive towards me (which is good because I incorrectly entered my orders with Ruh and Hol). Russia also got Vienna. France didn't do much, Turkey again failed to get into TYS. I kept Russia out of Berlin and rebuilt my missing army there. Russia built army Moscow and England built F Lvp, which I didn't expect - is he going to go after France now? He can't hold StP...

I really need to come up with a plan here. Where's my next center coming from? I can certainly tap Bur and use Hol to support Lon-Bel, but I'm not sure that helps me? Maybe that helps free up units to push west on Russia? Do I move to Tyo to help Italy? Convoy to Livonia? Try to get Warsaw somehow? Hm.
These are good questions to ask. You're in a tricky spot, because France overbuilt armies thinking he had an alliance with England. If England takes Belgium, that's an improvement, but will it really free up one of your armies to move against Russia? How comfortable will you be, for example, vacating Ruhr with French armies still in Burgundy, Paris, Picardy, and Brest? Moving to Tyrolia seems ill-advised ... if you can free up an army, you probably want to use it to move more directly against Russia or France (i.e., where you have a chance to gain a center).
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:12 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:11 am
Scmoo472 wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:52 am
Turkey breaking through the Tyr/WM/Tun/GoL is one of my favorite positions when the line isn't fully stalemated. Just one thing to consider from Russia/Germany, Germany will flip supports to Vienna if you were to take Budapest and Trieste (presumably both on the same turn). But the German line isn't breakable until you can get around to Burgundy. That being said, those are two centers you can take, and still maintain the same line against Germany, thus keeping his line just holding, but it does supplement the need for any centers in England.
Trieste - Budapest - Tunis - Marseilles - Spain - Portugal - Paris or Brest would give you your 18.
It's a good point. Budapest/Trieste don't necessarily have to be my last center. I guess I'll need another couple of armies to take those centers from Russia, especially if I want to take both on the same turn.

My current thinking for the upcoming Spr '16 is that England is likely to prioritize defending Tunis over GoL, which creates an opportunity:

TYS-->GoL supported by TUS
ION-->TYS supported by NAP
ADR-->ION

Or, maybe better, NAP-->TYS supported by ION, and ADR can remain in place. It's useful to have the fleet there if I want to attack Piedmont from Venice once I'm in GoL.
Again, seems reasonable. I agree with the thought about bot England protecting Tunis instead of GOL. My prediction is that England plays Tun S GOL-Tys, WMS S Tun. It might be obvious to the other humans here, but I think that GOL is strategically more important than Tun in this position.
That's a very good point. I kind of skipped part of the analysis, didn't I, where I predict England's moves, and then figure out my moves accordingly. I think you're probably right about England's moves, too. Which means, I need to hit Tunis from Ionian Sea to cut that support for GoL-->TYS, otherwise my TYS-->GoL will bounce.

So, my final answer ...

TYS-->GoL supported by TUS
ION-->TUN
NAP-->TYS

If we are right about England ordering WES support-hold TUN, my Naples move ought to work without any support. If we are wrong, England's second most likely moves would seem to be WES-->TYS with 2 supports. In that case, my TYS-->GoL succeeds, and NAP-->TYS bounces, which isn't all bad. In the unlikely event England orders TUN-->TYS supported by WES, England takes TYS but at least I take Tunis, which isn't horrible.

Here goes (and commentary on results later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#414 Post by Scmoo472 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:05 am

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:21 pm
That's a very good point. I kind of skipped part of the analysis, didn't I, where I predict England's moves, and then figure out my moves accordingly. I think you're probably right about England's moves, too. Which means, I need to hit Tunis from Ionian Sea to cut that support for GoL-->TYS, otherwise my TYS-->GoL will bounce.

So, my final answer ...

TYS-->GoL supported by TUS
ION-->TUN
NAP-->TYS

If we are right about England ordering WES support-hold TUN, my Naples move ought to work without any support. If we are wrong, England's second most likely moves would seem to be WES-->TYS with 2 supports. In that case, my TYS-->GoL succeeds, and NAP-->TYS bounces, which isn't all bad. In the unlikely event England orders TUN-->TYS supported by WES, England takes TYS but at least I take Tunis, which isn't horrible.

Here goes (and commentary on results later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
A good result for sure. I'm curious as to your thoughts on what you should do next. I will share mine here.

Tunis is a trap, you will get a center, and another unit, force a destroy from England, but he has 3 units he can destroy that are completely out of the game. Also to be said, that by forcing Tunis, you draw the line. MAO - Spain - North Africa - Western Med can't be broken from the Med alone.

From your position, I would focus on Marseilles, and opening France as an option for armies. Expecting Germany to block on Marseilles, but that is actually what I would want. By bouncing in Marseilles, you can force a destroy at Piedmont from Venice, if he chose to bounce, you get a forced destroy that has to be rebuilt in Germany itself, if he doesn't, you just take Marseilles with a fleet. (Which has its own leverage in forcing the destroy in Spring). There is a chance that England would attempt to retake GoL, but with your threat on Tunis, I would expect Spain/Tunis to SHold WM, and MAO to go to North Africa, with Irish Sea following to MAO, and potentially NS moving to EC. Now if he convoys the A Lon - Belgium... thats bad. Real bad, as it only takes U - Gas and U Bur to stalemate you now. So by all accounts, you can't let that German army get back to Marseilles, Once NA/MAO/WM are controlled, Spain will be free to hold Marseilles endlessly, and thus, the game is a draw.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#415 Post by DougJoe » Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:03 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:21 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:06 am
You win some, you lose some. :? At least I got Sweden so I didn't lose a unit. The funny thing is that England supported me into Sweden!

Spring 1904: I tried for Belgium again (just in case) and it still didn't work and my army in Bur got blown up. I forced my way into BAL and kept Russia out of Ber. Russia punched into Budapest and moved to Finland. Turkey was silly and tried for TYS.

Fall 1904: This turn was interesting. England, again, tried to convoy into Belgium (I guess he *really* wants it) and, because Russia kept on about Sweden, England snuck into St. Pete. France didn't do anything aggressive towards me (which is good because I incorrectly entered my orders with Ruh and Hol). Russia also got Vienna. France didn't do much, Turkey again failed to get into TYS. I kept Russia out of Berlin and rebuilt my missing army there. Russia built army Moscow and England built F Lvp, which I didn't expect - is he going to go after France now? He can't hold StP...

I really need to come up with a plan here. Where's my next center coming from? I can certainly tap Bur and use Hol to support Lon-Bel, but I'm not sure that helps me? Maybe that helps free up units to push west on Russia? Do I move to Tyo to help Italy? Convoy to Livonia? Try to get Warsaw somehow? Hm.
These are good questions to ask. You're in a tricky spot, because France overbuilt armies thinking he had an alliance with England. If England takes Belgium, that's an improvement, but will it really free up one of your armies to move against Russia? How comfortable will you be, for example, vacating Ruhr with French armies still in Burgundy, Paris, Picardy, and Brest? Moving to Tyrolia seems ill-advised ... if you can free up an army, you probably want to use it to move more directly against Russia or France (i.e., where you have a chance to gain a center).
I played a few turns in my game since this was written - recap and thoughts:
Spring 05: I figured that Russia would use his forces to recapture St.P, so I thought that it might make sense to take the opportunity to push into GoB. I should probably have been a little more aggressive and moved from Swe instead of BAL... maybe? I also pushed Russia out of Silesia. Russia got StP back and helped Italy take Tri. (Side note - this is what I see *so often* with the bots, Italy went after Russia and now will get rolled by R/T, mostly T). England didn't go for Bel, but pushed into IRI.

What I realized (after this turn went through) was that France had a *fleet* in Belgium, not an army. I could have played Ruh-Mun, Ber S Mun-Sil instead of what I did play - and probably been in a little bit better position for the fall.

Fall 05: I wanted to keep pushing on Russia. I realized that I could probably use Munich to do something instead of sitting in Mun. I didn't bother to try for War, since I thought that Russia would cover it - BUT - I hedged by bets against Russia making a desperate lunge for Berlin and moved Mun there instead of to Silesia, which probably would have been the better play. The results weren't so bad, England pushed into MAO but lost a unit, which was the army in London (that was the one that made sense, I think).

Spring 06: Man, the bad decisions keep on coming. I thought I had a good idea to self-bounce Hol & Mun in Ruh to keep out a potential Bur-Mun (which, if I had really thought about it, I shouldn't have been worried about it as France hasn't really been interested in anything other than Bel.) I also thought that Russia wouldn't defend Liv, so I would try for that to destroy his fleet and follow up into Pru. I thought that if Russia moved War-Sil, not moving Mun-Sil would be ok because I could bounce a potential Sil-Ber... What I *didn't* think about for some reason was the thought that Vie/Bud might move...

So on one hand, I can force StP. On the other hand, I'm *probably* going to lose Munich - I think bot Russia is smart enough to take it from Sil where I can't cut the support. So far, I'm thinking my moves for the fall will be:

Hol H
GoB S Liv-Stp

...I'm still debating on is what to do with Pru, Ber, and BAL. More later.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#416 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:09 am

Scmoo472 wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:05 am
Trigfea63 wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:21 pm
Here goes (and commentary on results later):

https://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID ... Type=large
A good result for sure. I'm curious as to your thoughts on what you should do next. I will share mine here.

Tunis is a trap, you will get a center, and another unit, force a destroy from England, but he has 3 units he can destroy that are completely out of the game. Also to be said, that by forcing Tunis, you draw the line. MAO - Spain - North Africa - Western Med can't be broken from the Med alone.

From your position, I would focus on Marseilles, and opening France as an option for armies. Expecting Germany to block on Marseilles, but that is actually what I would want. By bouncing in Marseilles, you can force a destroy at Piedmont from Venice, if he chose to bounce, you get a forced destroy that has to be rebuilt in Germany itself, if he doesn't, you just take Marseilles with a fleet. (Which has its own leverage in forcing the destroy in Spring). There is a chance that England would attempt to retake GoL, but with your threat on Tunis, I would expect Spain/Tunis to SHold WM, and MAO to go to North Africa, with Irish Sea following to MAO, and potentially NS moving to EC. Now if he convoys the A Lon - Belgium... thats bad. Real bad, as it only takes U - Gas and U Bur to stalemate you now. So by all accounts, you can't let that German army get back to Marseilles, Once NA/MAO/WM are controlled, Spain will be free to hold Marseilles endlessly, and thus, the game is a draw.
This is some great analysis, thank you for sharing these thoughts. If you hadn't posted, I suspect I might have just gone for Tunis. I'm still not 100% sure about it ... it would be pretty excellent to destroy another English fleet, after all. The SC doesn't hurt, either. But I take your point about getting stalemated.

If I'm understanding your analysis correctly, the key to it is this: As Turkey, I can't reliably get through the Med into MAO with fleets alone, at least not from the current position. I need to preserve the option of filtering armies through Piedmont-Marseilles and into France. Thus, it's not so much that taking Tunis is a bad thing, it's not. But it's strategically more important to open up the army corridor through PIE-MAR before it's too late, and that means moving right now, this turn, GoL-->MAR, and VEN-->PIE supported by TUS. If I do that, I more or less guarantee I get a unit to Marseilles. If instead I go for Tunis, GoL attacks WES to cut support, and if Germany moves PIE-->MAR, it becomes far more difficult, if not impossible, to ever get Turkish armies through.

If so, then perhaps I don't need to let England into GoL. I'm pretty sure England will order WES support-hold TUN. Thus, GoL-->MAR, TYS-->GoL, ION-->TYS, and ADR-->ION would seem to cover the bases. I would expect to bounce England at GoL, which is just fine (if I don't bounce Germany at MAR). If my fleets all advance, that's not bad either.

I still don't like the looks of English fleets in Tunis, N. Africa, WES, Spain, and MAO as they will be after this turn ...

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#417 Post by Trigfea63 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:37 am

DougJoe wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:03 pm
I played a few turns in my game since this was written - recap and thoughts:
Spring 05: I figured that Russia would use his forces to recapture St.P, so I thought that it might make sense to take the opportunity to push into GoB. I should probably have been a little more aggressive and moved from Swe instead of BAL... maybe? I also pushed Russia out of Silesia. Russia got StP back and helped Italy take Tri. (Side note - this is what I see *so often* with the bots, Italy went after Russia and now will get rolled by R/T, mostly T). England didn't go for Bel, but pushed into IRI.

What I realized (after this turn went through) was that France had a *fleet* in Belgium, not an army. I could have played Ruh-Mun, Ber S Mun-Sil instead of what I did play - and probably been in a little bit better position for the fall.

Fall 05: I wanted to keep pushing on Russia. I realized that I could probably use Munich to do something instead of sitting in Mun. I didn't bother to try for War, since I thought that Russia would cover it - BUT - I hedged by bets against Russia making a desperate lunge for Berlin and moved Mun there instead of to Silesia, which probably would have been the better play. The results weren't so bad, England pushed into MAO but lost a unit, which was the army in London (that was the one that made sense, I think).

Spring 06: Man, the bad decisions keep on coming. I thought I had a good idea to self-bounce Hol & Mun in Ruh to keep out a potential Bur-Mun (which, if I had really thought about it, I shouldn't have been worried about it as France hasn't really been interested in anything other than Bel.) I also thought that Russia wouldn't defend Liv, so I would try for that to destroy his fleet and follow up into Pru. I thought that if Russia moved War-Sil, not moving Mun-Sil would be ok because I could bounce a potential Sil-Ber... What I *didn't* think about for some reason was the thought that Vie/Bud might move...

So on one hand, I can force StP. On the other hand, I'm *probably* going to lose Munich - I think bot Russia is smart enough to take it from Sil where I can't cut the support. So far, I'm thinking my moves for the fall will be:

Hol H
GoB S Liv-Stp

...I'm still debating on is what to do with Pru, Ber, and BAL. More later.
It looks like the above turn has processed ... I won't spoil it but looks like your moves were well-considered.

On bot-Italy's approach, I agree, it's usually unwise for Italy to attack Austria early. In this game, not only did Italy make that (usually) strategic error, but the attack was pretty much a failure. Italy only gained one center, Trieste, and it took until 1903 to do it. By then Turkey was already in Serbia and Greece and soon had 4 fleets. Game over. This old keepsake proves pretty conclusively that Italy should be a lot more worried about Turkey early on than about Austria (Tables 3 and 4 are quite instructive):

http://uk.diplom.org/pouch/Zine/F2007R/ ... ician3.htm

I also think Russia and Italy are natural allies and should cooperate more often, even in gunboat. (Again, Tables 3 and 4 are instructive, as are the Italian and Russian solo maps.) But I don't often see I/R cooperation on Webdip, and the bot-play reflects the Webdip metagame.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#418 Post by DougJoe » Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:37 pm

Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:37 am

It looks like the above turn has processed ... I won't spoil it but looks like your moves were well-considered.
Yea, I actually played another turn last night, but I wasn't up to writing a whole bunch about it.

My internal thought was that Russia was going to play StP-Mos, Ukr S War, Boh S Sil-Mun, Vie-Tyo. In that case, I figured the best bet I had was to get as many armies around Munich as possible to try to take it back the next year. Hence, Pru went back to Ber (instead of pushing to Liv), Hol-Ruh, and Mun held in the off chance that France would support it (which he didn't, but I wasn't expecting it)...

...and so, again, one good thing happened and one really annoying thing happened. The good thing was that R/T bounced each other out of Tyo, which means that I have a chance to get Munich back because Russia only has two on it. The bad (annoying) thing that happened was that England took Sweden. Honestly, I didn't even consider that as a possibility... and even if I had, I probably still would have leaned towards using BAL to ensure Pru-Ber.

So I lose a unit, which I think is going to be BAL.
Trigfea63 wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:37 am

On bot-Italy's approach, I agree, it's usually unwise for Italy to attack Austria early. In this game, not only did Italy make that (usually) strategic error, but the attack was pretty much a failure. Italy only gained one center, Trieste, and it took until 1903 to do it. By then Turkey was already in Serbia and Greece and soon had 4 fleets. Game over. This old keepsake proves pretty conclusively that Italy should be a lot more worried about Turkey early on than about Austria (Tables 3 and 4 are quite instructive):

http://uk.diplom.org/pouch/Zine/F2007R/ ... ician3.htm

I also think Russia and Italy are natural allies and should cooperate more often, even in gunboat. (Again, Tables 3 and 4 are instructive, as are the Italian and Russian solo maps.) But I don't often see I/R cooperation on Webdip, and the bot-play reflects the Webdip metagame.
If I recall correctly, the closest I've ever come to getting a solo with Italy (with humans) was back when I played on the speedycomputing.net server that hosted a phpDiplomacy instance that was linked through Facebook. There was a gunboat game where I was Italy and I did go for the I/R then ended up stabbing Russia. Wish I had a record of that one, because I don't remember how the I/R was played in terms of Austria.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#419 Post by DougJoe » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:52 pm

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:37 pm

...and so, again, one good thing happened and one really annoying thing happened. The good thing was that R/T bounced each other out of Tyo, which means that I have a chance to get Munich back because Russia only has two on it. The bad (annoying) thing that happened was that England took Sweden. Honestly, I didn't even consider that as a possibility... and even if I had, I probably still would have leaned towards using BAL to ensure Pru-Ber.

So I lose a unit, which I think is going to be BAL.
Played another year. Recap:
Winter 06:
I did end up removing BAL. Russia had to build in Sev, though, so I guess that's not the worst thing.
Spring 07:
I did get back into Munich (from Kiel). Russia didn't try for Tyo (so Turkey got in). England kicked Russia out of Norway...

...and France moved into Holland - which I knew was a possibility, but thought that getting Munich back was more important. Still disappointing to see, though.
Fall 07:
I didn't figure there was much else to do other than to hold Munich and St.P - I didn't think there was anything better to do with Munich.
I held Munch and St.P. Turkey got into Venice. England kept Norway and Sweden...

...and, lo and behold, France moved back to Belgium and support held Munich. I'm guessing that France bot just got skittish about leaving Belgium open and... honestly, I'm not sure about Munich - I'd suspect it's more about slowing Russia down than helping me, but I'll take what I can get.

England, Turkey, and I each get a build. I'm thinking an army in Kiel is more useful that a fleet. Turkey continues to look very strong - he should get Rom/Nap next year - the interesting thing will be to see which way(s) he goes after that.

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Re: Austria vs Bots

#420 Post by DougJoe » Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:13 am

DougJoe wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:52 pm
Played another year. Recap:
Winter 06:
I did end up removing BAL. Russia had to build in Sev, though, so I guess that's not the worst thing.
Spring 07:
I did get back into Munich (from Kiel). Russia didn't try for Tyo (so Turkey got in). England kicked Russia out of Norway...

...and France moved into Holland - which I knew was a possibility, but thought that getting Munich back was more important. Still disappointing to see, though.
Fall 07:
I didn't figure there was much else to do other than to hold Munich and St.P - I didn't think there was anything better to do with Munich.
I held Munch and St.P. Turkey got into Venice. England kept Norway and Sweden...

...and, lo and behold, France moved back to Belgium and support held Munich. I'm guessing that France bot just got skittish about leaving Belgium open and... honestly, I'm not sure about Munich - I'd suspect it's more about slowing Russia down than helping me, but I'll take what I can get.

England, Turkey, and I each get a build. I'm thinking an army in Kiel is more useful that a fleet. Turkey continues to look very strong - he should get Rom/Nap next year - the interesting thing will be to see which way(s) he goes after that.
Built army Kiel.
In the Spring of 08, I decided to just let it ride and not defend Holland or Denmark and just try to push into Prussia to threaten Warsaw. The S08 results weren't anything earth-shattering. France did move Bur-Gas, so that was kind of nice. Turkey moved into Tyo, which wasn't as nice.

For F08, I was a little nervous that R/T would cooperate to take Munich, so I just decided to support hold it with Ruh and Ber. I then decided that Sil would probably move to War to protect it, so I decided to move Pru-Sil (with support from Mun)... and, of course, continue to protect StP with GOB...

...and wow, was this turn crazy.

I got into Silesia. Yay!

England moved Swe-BAL, which I really don't understand. He also took Belgium, since France couldn't defend it from Bur anymore (he's been using Pic to defend Bre, that didn't change). France, got back into MAO but, of course, retreated to Holland. *sad face*

,,,and Turkey got Rome and *beautifully* stabbed the Russian (when I was commenting on the Turkish position in my last post, I was thinking that if I was Turkey, I'd be thinking about stabbing the Russian).

So England +1, Germany -1, Italy -1, Russia -3, Turkey +4 (!). Now I have to figure out which unit to pull.

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