M76 - Dungeons and Dragons - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[pyxxy]

Can't explain why Besharam thought that would be fun/funny/useful. It's pretty stupid.

Just swap in eden or chaqa doing this and then it's nbd

[pyxxy]

it was obviously not a serious claim

my point is it was intended to convey a scumread on bona but there was very little pressure that was actually exerted toward him

Idk how an obviously fake/sarcastic claim is supposed to convey a scumread. Is that an actual tactic?

I got a guilty scan N0 on you

it's not an uncommon way of expressing things on other sites, yeah. it's understood that the n0 guilty is not literal but figuraive

A cross-site tell that only you and Neon would pick up on, then? I'm saying this neutrally.

[pyxxy]

I wish Sabi and Pixxy were around.

[pyxxy]

sabi posts 10 times because they get busy. they come back to people wanting to kill bona over damo. this is what tey say:

All their friends are dead

Except...me and Bona are still alive.

Sabi didn't really acknowledge the question I asked about who they would vote if Bona flips scum.

The problem is I do still believe they're just busy and done with the game. Trying to get Neon not to suicide-by-vengeful would have to be such a ballsy scum play. Idk.

I don't know who I would vote if Bona flips scum.

I will just sheep the consensus if I'm being honest.

I am busy as you know if you didn't bail this weekend

this is such a weak, muted reaction. Where is the shouting about how bona is town and we are going to lose if he's daykilled? what happened to all that conviction sabi had? why aren't they defending their townread anymore when they were ready to shout people down before that?

You are...not wrong. But I think you need to consider that you were making the case on sabi before bona even flipped.

Combine that with the way your opinion on bona progressed from townish to full scum D4, it really did look like a plan where you and bona had both decided to let you fully bus him and then try and set up sabi as the next day's miskill since they would look really bad for townreading their friend bona.

Your enthusiasm for this case on sabi fits with a town who really believes that they're solved the game and nobody is listening to them. Or it's a pre-constructed case that scum was preparing for over 2 days and so it's much easier than normal for scum!you to present it believably.

[pyxxy]

Nice, caught up with a little time left.

rdr NK doesn't tell me much besides scum is someone who believes rdr when he says he's a VT?

note I'm basing this on the reasoning in my wallpost which is tl;dr: I think day vig is still out there and just saving it for if they hit the commuter commuting

rdr was sussing bo a little bit but that would be galaxy brain for an experienced scum!bo to shoot the person that he just voted for + barely had a scumread on bo

which is to say

##VOTE wolfu

I had the privilege of holding my vote and thinking yesterday, which leads to today's conclusion. I think maybe I need to think more about what rdr dying means, but I also remember when snowy AtE'd me and would like to avoid getting verbally juked again by a (presumably) good experienced scum player like wolfu.

Once again though the ghost of bozo (boghost?, ghozo?) reminds me to remind us that hammering isn't necessary but of all the days in this game this is the one I'm least worried about.

[wolfu]

You are...not wrong. But I think you need to consider that you were making the case on sabi before bona even flipped.

Combine that with the way your opinion on bona progressed from townish to full scum D4, it really did look like a plan where you and bona had both decided to let you fully bus him and then try and set up sabi as the next day's miskill since they would look really bad for townreading their friend bona.

Your enthusiasm for this case on sabi fits with a town who really believes that they're solved the game and nobody is listening to them. Or it's a pre-constructed case that scum was preparing for over 2 days and so it's much easier than normal for scum!you to present it believably.

i think that's a pretty biased view

ultimately if i see a connection as town am i supposed to not talk about it? part of the reason i turned against bona was that his interactions with sabi felt toothless, like he was never trying to actually read them

surely if the plan was to throw bona under the bus, i could simply...come up with reasons he was scummy on his own? with an informed perspective i don't have to do all this blah blah about finding a partner i can just find the scummy things he's done

but as part of what i was doing yesterday, i had to re-evaluate EVERYONE and that meant taking a closer look at sabi and that meant bringing up the stuff i saw, because people were discussing if bo or ike was one of the scum and neither actually felt right to me based on my reading of the game

again it's rather frustrating to have multiple people deal with me this way where they are kind of clearly starting from a conclusion and working backwards - "a scum could bus bona here so wolfu was bussing because his read changed". it's very irritating because i feel like i've been pretty transparent with my thought processin terms of hiow things changed but there's no attempt to figure out whether i was genuine, i just get slapped with "read changed = bus" and that's a very overly simplistic view of the game.

no one has even attempted to actually understand my thought process to figure out if i'm scum or not

i don't think i try to push an unpopular option like sabi as scum, so many of you were completely willing to believe that there was a scum in the lurkers that that'd be pretty easy to get away with

[celaph]

I'm right there with you. I think damo is too, given he's last minute worries about a wolfu/rdr scum team.

Normally I'm a big night talker but with just 1 scum left, I might save my mech thoughts for the morning. No need to clarify the situation or what I/we're thinking? Am I being silly y/n?

I'm just thinking through roles and stuff. Backup is still the most likely imo but I would want to review: "if backup in play, how come no shot during D4?" But I don't want to drop my thoughts during night. I want the last scum to have to react to the current state of the game.

I am going to try and chat some and ask questions as it'll be the easiest way for me to catch up and know what I should read. You're free to ignore me until the morning if you feel like the mechs warrant it.

Why are people feeling that backup is the most likely? Sorcerer died first so we have a backup sorcerer, but I don't know what evidence of that you would see.

Back up gets power of first scum death (day Vig). Sorcerer was town.

ahhh, you're right. I saw sorcerer and assumed scum.

[wolfu]

rdr was sussing bo a little bit but that would be galaxy brain for an experienced scum!bo to shoot the person that he just voted for + barely had a scumread on bo

which is to say

##VOTE wolfu

I had the privilege of holding my vote and thinking yesterday, which leads to today's conclusion. I think maybe I need to think more about what rdr dying means, but I also remember when snowy AtE'd me and would like to avoid getting verbally juked again by a (presumably) good experienced scum player like wolfu.

Once again though the ghost of bozo (boghost?, ghozo?) reminds me to remind us that hammering isn't necessary but of all the days in this game this is the one I'm least worried about.

rdr was actually suspecting bo quite a bit?

i don't know that that factors in to the kill, rdr buried bbona pretty hard yesterday

but he was also one of the only people who wasn;t calling me guaranteed scum and i think it's pretty wild you think i shoot him over damo or you??

unless you believe the mafia are just that afraid of the commuter, which is guess is plausible

[wolfu]

and again i'm ridiculously annoyed to get paranoia'd for being good as scum (which i get almost every game with people that know me) without any regard as to whether my actions make sense from someone with a scum role PM and a scum win condition. because i've simultaneously been accused of things that would make me wildly incompetent as scum, like defending demon when he was faking commuter

you can't have it both ways

am i experienced or obvious

[wolfu]

My problem with you is that you like exactly the same as last game where you were scum:

- Claim to not have read the setup.

- Scumread me for bullshit reasons.

- Save a scum saying it's to break a potential tie (jump from Snowy (scum) to Sabi).

I don't see you as a hard busser but you did buss Hamilton last game when he was obviously going down. Here you might have a point that bussing Bona is a good move as scum. But I don't scumread any of the people on Bona's wagon, so it's just NAI to me.

I didn't claim you are either the dumbest player or the smartest one. But your play on D3 was anti-town and you saying you didn't know about the hammer is just like last game to me.

Town have two shots to win this game and I think you should be one. The other shot right now seems to be Sabi to me, but I need to re-read them and also Wolfu.

First of all, I don't think you should be misskilled, I think you are scum.

Second, I don't think my play is unefecttive. Last game I identified both Snowy and you because the way you both tried to set me up. I also identified Bona as scum based on simple vote analysis logic, which you seem unable to understand and just kept saying "why Bona voted for a PR claimant" which is not a towny tell in any way. So, maybe you should reflect about your play if you are town.

Third, who said you are obviously town? Your only towny moment was that emotional outburst, but it can be easily done as annoyed scum too. And the fact you seem to be getting a pass worries me, because I think I might be NKed or shot tonight.

i am not saying rdr's read is iron clad or that we are obligated to follow it. i still don't think bo is my top suspect but i probably would need to give him a reread to be safe

but i don't want you pretending rdr didn't scumread bo. because he did.

[bo_sox48]

I wouldn’t have killed rdr, it’s way too fun to constantly beat him and his baseless arguments

[wolfu]

I wouldn’t have killed rdr, it’s way too fun to constantly beat him and his baseless arguments

yeah like i said i'm not accusing you but i don't want something that's not true being stated as though it's a fact

if you could i'd like you to answer the two questions i asked you earlier:

1. why do you believe my play Day 4 was scummy?

2. say you daykill me today, i flip town. what are you doing next? who are you looking at as mafia?

[bo_sox48]

Do I really have to explain why going from townread to scumread and overdramatically hammering when it is opportune to bus a teammate is scummy? If you are just trying to keep me talking so you can keep talking yourself then give it up; I’m not going to give that kind of crap the time of day.

I don’t intend to hammer you right out of the gate and never have. I’m not really that sold that you’re the final scum team member and am fairly on board with your Besharam case. But in case my initial feeling was right I was angling to get NKed.

[wolfu]

anyway, i'm out for the night so i won't be around to post or answer questions, will be back sometime tomorrow

in the meantime, if you find things about my play suspicious, i would encourage you to actually ASK ME QUESTIONS. i am sure i can explain my thought process for my actions if it was at any point unclear. actually try to solve my alignment rather than just throwing me in the scum bin because you don't like the way i play the game. that is not how you win games.

we can still win this game if i am day killed, but i would prefer for that not to be the case, as doing so takes away all margin for error that we have.but in order to do so i need people to actually try to find me as town rather than pushing me for overly simplistic (or even outright wrong) reasons. i believe it can be done and the extent to which i've analyzed and provided thoughts with actual depth should make me readable as town. but you need to cast aside your confirmation bias to do so.

to be blunt, i am worried if i get daykilled that people will continue producing reads using bad process rather than trying to analyze whose play makes sense as coming from a scum perspective. i would like to have some sense that is not the case

[wolfu]

Do I really have to explain why going from townread to scumread and overdramatically hammering when it is opportune to bus a teammate is scummy? If you are just trying to keep me talking so you can keep talking yourself then give it up; I’m not going to give that kind of crap the time of day.

I don’t intend to hammer you right out of the gate and never have. I’m not really that sold that you’re the final scum team member and am fairly on board with your Besharam case. But in case my initial feeling was right I was angling to get NKed.

yes, actually

i would like you to explain

both because your reasoning for me being scum is wrong so i'd like to have a chance to break down those arguments, because i would like to avoid being DKed this game if at all possible

and because it is important for me to hear YOUR thought process to see if it makes sense and is coming from a town POV rather than a scum one. i jhave failed pretty dramatically in that regard multiple times this game, but now that the game is smaller we can have an actual conversation and hopefully i can read you off of it

i would like to keep talking because talking is part of the game and communicating is how you win. there is really no need to be rude to me over what are fairly simple questions


anyway, understood on the angle of trying to bait the NK, at least

[bo_sox48]

Bona: is scum
Scum: does not want Bona to die, but if he’s going to wants to be townread as a result

You: townreads Bona
You, later, as Bona is looking likely to die: starts scumreading Bona
You, when it is basically certain Bona will die: LOOK AT ME, HIS DEATH IS BECAUSE OF ME AND ONLY ME, NOT YOU ALL, JUST ME. I DID THIS. WATCH ME HAMMMMMMMEEEEERRRRR!!!!!

Me: wow wolfu that’s kinda weird doncha think
You: no, and you better spend hours explaining it to me because I will not accept this slander

[bo_sox48]

I am going climbing and won’t be online until Sunday. Byee

[celaph]

Misc thoughts as I'm reading through things (mostly just Wolfu's iso).

1) Was PR worcej around at EoD and didn't claim??? I'm sure y'all have already commented on the play.

2)

##Vote bozotheclown

Vibes

I gave you a chance to push your Tom wagon and this is your response?

admittedly i don't like this

Did you dislike Bozo's post or Neon's?

3)

kind of like bona coming at me for not being helpful but maybe i'm just a sucker for that sort of thing

Can you say more about what you liked in Bona's comments? Bona wasn't going after you for not being helpful. His critiques were that you were being non-committal in your beliefs and speaking of hypothetical scenarios instead of this game.

4)

town reads
brainbomb
Rumi Tobari
Princess Neon


lean town (in order of confidence)
Bonatogether
DemonRHK
Tom Bombadil
damo666
worcej
BesharamSabi


true null/no content
Hellenic Riot
CrimsonFox
bo_sox48
Rdrivera2005

idk lol
bozotheclown


lean scum
pyxxy
dargorygel


the rdrivera thing brainbomb pointed out feels like a token scum move, to go back and re-use an opener faking not knowing the game started. not sure i'd want to yeet someone over it on day 1 though

doesn't really feel like day 1 of a 17 player game so far, some of that probably owed to 4/17 having almost no content, some of it probably due to the shortened phase length without added urgency

honestly would wager 1 scum at most in the 0/1 posters (hellenic/CFox/bo_sox/rdrivera) but that's a blind guess.

didn't really like how dargory responded to pressure at all

@Wolfu, Why is Rumi so far up this list? Also, on BB's earlier list, why didn't you argue in favor of Rumi being town if you feel so strongly?
@Everyone, how widely townread was Rumi D1? If someone had a townread on Rumi, would there be a good reason to not elaborate on it because everyone else feels similarly?

Secondly, why do you think that there was at most 0/1 scum out of the non-posters?

5)

anyway now that i'm home my rationale for voting tom is as follows:

1. brainbomb and riot were both repping confident scumreads on tom

2. brain died with a confident townread on riot

3. these are smart capable players and when smart capable players have a strong meta scumread the best thing to do is shut up and sheep

I too like getting free miskills when town was wrong.

The problem here is that you don't highlight where what in BB's and HR's cases were good and use their casework to drive your case. Instead you just use the idea of them being good to drive your case.

6)

i think sabi might be mafia

not really confident but reading their iso that's the vibe i get

We have President Bush over here with the amount of hedges you're hiding behind.

Edit: I think Wolfu makes a decent explanation in a relatively short order on their Sabi read. Retract this as a point against them.

7)

i would still think he's town, in allhonesty, because the very particular attitude toward the game he's shown is not one that scum fakes

Weird take to start it. That said, scum Bona has historically skated by on doing things as scum that don't seem to come from the scum perspective. Might need to read Bona this game to really get a sense of it, but this is at least a good explanation for a hard town Bona read on first glance.

8)

also, why on earth is bona mafia?

To Wolf's credit, he follows this up with what appears to be a re-examination of Bona, albeit, a mediocre one. If town bona was critical for his worldview, he might not have shown this uncertainty.

9)

the reasons given for townreading bona have mainly been due to him being loud, which i don't think is a good reason to townread someone

um... no...?

bona keeps coming across as genuine when he posts

i would still think he's town, in allhonesty, because the very particular attitude toward the game he's shown is not one that scum fakes

Sorta skimmed the rest because reading a lot is hard.

[celaph]

tl;dr
I think that Wolfu actually started out the game with some decent D1 analysis, though it has not stayed. I think he has had a fundamentally warped view of the game at a number of points that are indicative of either a scum or a very wrong towny and I think the former. I'm a little off-put by all the talk about Demon/Bona's D2 behavior, but then again I haven't read what they said.

In a vacuum I don't mind his push on Sabi, but I should probably read Sabi's posts next.

[celaph]

i realistically have NO idea how you could get the idea that i am mafia when bona and demon tried to tag team bury me on day 2

that's not a thing that mafia teammates do, ever


was i drastically wrong on them? yes. it's been a while since scum tried to go after me like that and my typical expectation is that people tunneling me wrongly are town. but if you believe our plan was them bussing me why do i respond the way i do?

additionally bona tried to pocket me when it looked like i was willing to push damo and then flipped on me again when i changed my mind (because damo was towntelling). that's...not teammate behavior

From your perspective, what's the towniest thing you've done this game?