M73 - Fowl Play - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[worcej]

The null hypothesis isn’t “everything is fake and the onus is on you to prove it’s real.” Maybe at the start of day 1, but at some point you have to look at a player who has consistently acted in perfect accord with town’s interests and go “okay, he’s not playing some 86 dimensional galaxy brain backgammon on me, he’s town.”

If Bona hasn’t met that threshold for you then fair play but fucking WHY omg I’ve been asking all game and gotten no good answer.

I look forward to this being thrown in my face forever if I’m wrong here but come on, at some point the burden can’t solely be on me to make the case for his innocence against entirely conclusory statements that he might be guilty.

Again, kinda weird for you to invalidate an approach some people take - this is also crucial for why you should openly explain people you town so we can see what you see and possibly adjust our opinions.

I don't see what is so obviously Bona being town like you do. I don't respond well to 'just take my word' type responses.

I haven’t ever done that with Bona… not before explaining to at least some degree anyway. I wrote about it specifically while I was discussing the game with ghug before casing him N2. I did it again to tortured length last night.

It is exasperating to write tedious tomes about Bona being town only for people to dish out lazy one liners like “well Bona could fake it” and then turn around and be told I’ve been the one telling people to just trust me.

It kind of just makes me wonder if anybody actually reads what I post, but then if I DON’T do these tedious long-winded explanations then people ignore my reads or think I haven’t explained them enough. It’s a really frustrating catch-22.

You use a lot of words to communicate your thoughts when sometimes it may be simpler to be more concise.

After a shit night with a 4 month old, sometimes I cannot make sense of your words lol

[brainbomb]

Again, kinda weird for you to invalidate an approach some people take - this is also crucial for why you should openly explain people you town so we can see what you see and possibly adjust our opinions.

I don't see what is so obviously Bona being town like you do. I don't respond well to 'just take my word' type responses.

I haven’t ever done that with Bona… not before explaining to at least some degree anyway. I wrote about it specifically while I was discussing the game with ghug before casing him N2. I did it again to tortured length last night.

It is exasperating to write tedious tomes about Bona being town only for people to dish out lazy one liners like “well Bona could fake it” and then turn around and be told I’ve been the one telling people to just trust me.

It kind of just makes me wonder if anybody actually reads what I post, but then if I DON’T do these tedious long-winded explanations then people ignore my reads or think I haven’t explained them enough. It’s a really frustrating catch-22.

You use a lot of words to communicate your thoughts when sometimes it may be simpler to be more concise.

After a shit night with a 4 month old, sometimes I cannot make sense of your words lol

raccon eyed nodding along

[President Eden]

well it’s like… I spell out why I think Bona looks good. ghug just kinda tells me “no,” more or less—it’s somewhat reasoned out but when I argue otherwise and try to engage him he declines.

then brain comes in all like “why aren’t you ever worried about Bona” and I’m thinking “because he’s already town as I already explained?” and then get treated like I never did, so eventually I go write the massive tedious tome last night with like two dozen citations in it and then the next morning you’re now telling me I was just telling you and others to trust me and it’s like… no? quite the opposite

[Chaqa]

well it’s like… I spell out why I think Bona looks good. ghug just kinda tells me “no,” more or less—it’s somewhat reasoned out but when I argue otherwise and try to engage him he declines.

then brain comes in all like “why aren’t you ever worried about Bona” and I’m thinking “because he’s already town as I already explained?” and then get treated like I never did, so eventually I go write the massive tedious tome last night with like two dozen citations in it and then the next morning you’re now telling me I was just telling you and others to trust me and it’s like… no? quite the opposite

But why male models?

[brainbomb]

Also chaqa is not the doc either he just didnt want me to have the satisfaction of anyone believing it for very long.

there is a reason why I did it and it certainly was not baiting

[Chaqa]

Also chaqa is not the doc either he just didnt want me to have the satisfaction of anyone believing it for very long.

there is a reason why I did it and it certainly was not baiting

No, I am in fact the Doctor. I was planning to let your claim stand, but as things progressed I realized all that would happen is likely I would be suspected and valuable town effort would go toward building cases on me, so it seemed best to pull the rug out and also see how you reacted.

Plus, when you chose Jamie as your N3 save, despite my attempts to lampshade Eden had been the one targeted earlier in Day 3, it became obvious mafia would never believe your claim, rendering any NK-baiting benefit moot.

[President Eden]

Well just keep it all in mind y’all. There’s a very good chance these two jokers reveal the truth at EON and make me unable to analyze it.

If brainbomb is Doc, Jamie is clear and Chaqa is
If Chaqa is Doc, Chaqa is clear and Jamie is

You should probably flip Demon and Flum before any of that though. They basically can’t be JOAT. So unless the JOAT has ~information~ then that’s the right place to start I think. Probably Flum first as tbh, whatever his probably genuine annoyance with Chaqa, he’s been given plenty of time to play and I don’t feel like I’ve gotten anywhere close to enough to take him out of the POE pool. But I think Lamp is a good guy, and Lamp thinks Flum is a good guy, so I guess work that out too. Definitely don’t just brush past Lamp, engage him, he’s smart and dialed in trying to win it for us, remember that your team is more than a couple of town clears. After I go each of you will still have eight(!) allies here. Don’t give them short shrift just because they’re not as loud and obnoxious as I am.

Someone go back and check whether rivera does the whole “I should be flipped” thing as scum. I don’t feel like he does but I have actual zero evidence. My vague impression from M67 is that he fights it harder as scum because his team needs him to do so, and he doesn’t fight it as much as town because he realizes his flip helps his team. Obviously it’s gameable, but I don’t think he actually games it.

[Fluminator]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

[Jamiet99uk]

oh come on Jamie I literally just went over what I mean. That’s not an accurate characterization at all.

I’m pointing out that you got a pass for mechanical reasons that are now bunk. So you should be examined closer. You’re making this into a bigger issue than it is.

Okay.

[Fluminator]

JAmiet, what's your opinion on townies who lie?

[President Eden]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

Aaron has been keeping me in the loop, you guys are definitely impressing there.

And to be clearer—see guys this is why I write so much — when you came into the game I had a strong prior of you being suspicious because of ghug, and I don’t feel that prior has been meaningfully challenged by your solving. Maybe Chaqa needed to be checked a bit and maybe we are wrong on you, but most of us are concerned for fairly good reasons, or at least as close as we’ll get considering your predecessor left without much of a defense to those reasons. We’re at least trying to sort you fairly and it would be nice if we got treated as such instead of dismissed with notions like “I can’t wait to get to the god thread and rub in how wrong y’all are.” It’s not for lack of trying and if you are indeed a miskill, I’d rather not miskill you for being unimpressive OR scummy, I’d rather not miskill you at all. So help please?

[Jamiet99uk]

JAmiet, what's your opinion on townies who lie?

It depends. These things are very nuanced, you know?

[Fluminator]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

Aaron has been keeping me in the loop, you guys are definitely impressing there.

And to be clearer—see guys this is why I write so much — when you came into the game I had a strong prior of you being suspicious because of ghug, and I don’t feel that prior has been meaningfully challenged by your solving. Maybe Chaqa needed to be checked a bit and maybe we are wrong on you, but most of us are concerned for fairly good reasons, or at least as close as we’ll get considering your predecessor left without much of a defense to those reasons. We’re at least trying to sort you fairly and it would be nice if we got treated as such instead of dismissed with notions like “I can’t wait to get to the god thread and rub in how wrong y’all are.” It’s not for lack of trying and if you are indeed a miskill, I’d rather not miskill you for being unimpressive OR scummy, I’d rather not miskill you at all. So help please?

To be fair, Chaqa is the only one I've complained about and was planning to be smug about in the god thread.
I have no issue with how you've played.

[Fluminator]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

Aaron has been keeping me in the loop, you guys are definitely impressing there.

Has Aaro even mentioned he plans on stabbing me before the end?

[President Eden]

JAmiet, what's your opinion on townies who lie?

It depends. These things are very nuanced, you know?

fucking lmao

[President Eden]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

Aaron has been keeping me in the loop, you guys are definitely impressing there.

Has Aaro even mentioned he plans on stabbing me before the end?

Sir that’s squarely under attorney-client privilege, you know I can’t say

[rdrivera2005]

JAmiet, what's your opinion on townies who lie?

It depends. These things are very nuanced, you know?

Who the hell are you and what did you do with Jamiet?

[brainbomb]

Gonna try to actually give reads and my view of the game with recounting what each person has done from memory.

bonatogether: my overall opinion is that bona is potentially the big scum power player here. I find that yes he did push celaph hard. But the unknowns on this matter are that we dont know if celaph was flipper or godfather, and we dont know if bona did this for town motivated reasons. Eden has swayed me a bit on this but I will caution that all ive really seen bona contribute is really long posts that look like eden posts, which never seem to engage anyone. I lean to town simply because there are people farther ahead in my POE that need to go first. And because the consensus seems to think its insane to distrust bona here.


Slight Town

pyxxy: the thing I remember most is chaqa saying that the vote is going to tie when celaph was about to flip and for whatever reason pyxxy tried to actually tie it. In hindsight the vote was once again between tfb and celaph which seems like something that pyxxy would have been briefed on in a scum chat and it certainly isnt that farfetched to imaging that a player like pyxxy could get away with tying it or trying to tie it and then claim to be an innocent newb who just didnt know better.

slight scum

business lamp: more than anything I just think blamp is only on a survival mode at this point. I am seeing critical breakdowns in the positive traits displayed earlier in the game. I think the messages to the god QT is not a substantive peice of evidence because for the most part scum is about doiing any shady underhanded perceptual thing to look town. The most striking moment of EOD4 is blamp offering up sabi like a tasty slab of meat for me to pursue almost as if he wants me to move my vote. This does somewhat incriminate RHK or Flum and yet I find it more likely to be blamp just feeding into my overall opinions on sabi.

strong scum

Fluminator: I have gone back and forth on this and I think the best defense for flum is a statement made by ghug where he asserted that maniac, celaph, and tfb could just be s/s/s and it seems like something scum ghug wouldnt have said back then. Some of flums behavior has been sincere and he actually tried a little. It was maybe not that great or convincing but ghugs play was more impassioned and invested than his scum style I think

Null

DemonRHK: I still think that his emotional outbursts and reactions to flips are classic DRHK moments. I find him to be towny for the most part due to how he handled my push on him and how insulting he got, you can and other than using busser theory there isnt much case to be made on him being wolfy. The insistence on swinging the subs is probably just on par with how RHK would play late game as town, looking for some simplistic axiom to buy into. Not an indictment on his character its more just that RHK fades as a game goes on and ive experienced this a few times as his town partner.

Null

worcej: the thing that fascinates me is how much this wagon took steam. It actually became a favored wagon on the day. And I think this is because worcej has been somewhat distant and withdrawn. He did fight Jamie early, and called him a fuckstick. Overall there is nothing damning in worcejs ISO at all and he never seems overly frantic and ive seen him as scum I just cant quite feel great about him enough to say town here.

Null

Chaqa: he is town and I dont really doubt it. I agree that his POE is likely the best way to get our next result. I was never intending to turn d4 into a shit show. I was fascinated to see town implode and then to see chaqa himself get in on the implosion as if he just had lost all grip over the path he had wanted. When EOD occurs chaqa just feels very stiff and uncertain of what to actually do. His own rigidity is put to the test and chaqa is quite human here with no clear plan on how to proceed. I find this to be boring but not evil.

Town

bozo-eden-jamie
(until further evidence suggests any of them are lying these people all should die and there is no longer much reason to discuss them)

Town

rdrivera: I absolutely hate the constant offerings to be a sacrifice to the cause. Just play the freaking game and stop with this crap. I cant help but see rdrivera as scum based on play, and how he has behaved, and how his only offer of assistance is to just die. This seems like flipper behavior more than vt.

scum

In conclusion worcej I lean that its blamp and pyxxy here, but I also have a very hard time trusting flum, or rdrivera.
for my own reasons I trust rhk most of these 5.

outside of that if were still playing and blamp, flum are both dead town I would say we need is town a full stop on even having towncores and we start from the beginning all over again.

[Chaqa]

I'd rather be miskilled for being scummy, not for being "unimpressive" Eden.

That said, you should look at this game and be impressed so far.
https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

I'll re-read at least the latter half of day 1 tomorrow so I can give something before I'm poed.

Aaron has been keeping me in the loop, you guys are definitely impressing there.

And to be clearer—see guys this is why I write so much — when you came into the game I had a strong prior of you being suspicious because of ghug, and I don’t feel that prior has been meaningfully challenged by your solving. Maybe Chaqa needed to be checked a bit and maybe we are wrong on you, but most of us are concerned for fairly good reasons, or at least as close as we’ll get considering your predecessor left without much of a defense to those reasons. We’re at least trying to sort you fairly and it would be nice if we got treated as such instead of dismissed with notions like “I can’t wait to get to the god thread and rub in how wrong y’all are.” It’s not for lack of trying and if you are indeed a miskill, I’d rather not miskill you for being unimpressive OR scummy, I’d rather not miskill you at all. So help please?

To be fair, Chaqa is the only one I've complained about and was planning to be smug about in the god thread.
I have no issue with how you've played.

I guess I'm not allowed to have scumreads. Oh well.

[Jamiet99uk]

JAmiet, what's your opinion on townies who lie?

It depends. These things are very nuanced, you know?

fucking lmao

I've evolved into a different Pokemon this game.
Forget anything you knew about my old meta.