M73 - Fowl Play - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[BesharamSabi]

No.

I made an entire case on ghug which has nothing to do with his departure from the game. bozo and indeed everyone else is entitled to comment on it.

Stop trying to control the conversation and distort what happened into a personal fight.

Bring up the slot without bringing up the reaction over the fight from m71 is what I'm saying.

Now you are the one reading into what bozo said. He made no specific comment about what aspect of ghug’s reaction was scummy. You inserted that interpretation into it and then tried to shut down bozo’s comment. Which is EXACTLY what I was originally saying.

Jesus fucking christ eden.

I'm dropping it.

[BesharamSabi]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

[Chaqa]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Eden retracted his cop claim

Bozo is still clear

Maniac is the kill today

[BesharamSabi]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Eden retracted his cop claim

Bozo is still clear

Maniac is the kill today

But how is bozo clear?

We only cleared bozo because of the claim.

Chaqa I need you to explain this like I'm five because I don't get how we made this progression???

[Chaqa]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Eden retracted his cop claim

Bozo is still clear

Maniac is the kill today

But how is bozo clear?

We only cleared bozo because of the claim.

Chaqa I need you to explain this like I'm five because I don't get how we made this progression???

I’m not trying to confuse you or anything, but I don’t think we should talk about it until a day or two from now.

[President Eden]

also, while I think it’s a good policy not to dwell on things that would require ghug’s explanation to resolve, I am annoyed that in M71 discussing me when I wasn’t there to defend myself was considered fine, which included people ragging on me for subbing out, yet now that’s magically off limits for ghug.

it just speaks to the very grating double standard that I found myself running up against when trying to explain my position, which I thought was plainly unassailable.

like do I need to start taking offense whenever I get trolled or messed with? because that’s really going to fuck up the vibe for everyone, but apparently that’s the only way people will actually respect boundaries when I am bothered or try to see my side of an issue when an actual conflict occurs as has apparently happened here.

I’m really not interested in fostering a funny “fuck Eden” vibe if it’s going to lead to an actual “fuck Eden” vibe when things get serious.



and with that I think I am done speaking on this subject though if people have questions I’m here

[BesharamSabi]

Eden retracted his cop claim

Bozo is still clear

Maniac is the kill today

But how is bozo clear?

We only cleared bozo because of the claim.

Chaqa I need you to explain this like I'm five because I don't get how we made this progression???

I’m not trying to confuse you or anything, but I don’t think we should talk about it until a day or two from now.

Fine but I'm not auto clearing him till we talk about it

[worcej]

maybe we should all make a conscious effort to carefully describe our concerns with other players’ play in a way as plainly divorced from their person as possible. seems like there are a lot of wires getting crossed.

yes it’s hilarious that I’m the one saying this

It really isn't - it's a sign you're not a cruel POS

[worcej]

I will read the case later but I do know ghug was genuinely hurt by whatever happened 3 months ago. (He's mentioned it outside the game to me before)
I do not fully understand what is going on between you two tbh.

I can’t 100% speak for eden, but I can say his tone does not translate to text well. I don’t really remember what happened three months ago, but in various discussions I’ve had with eden where ghug has come up, it’s never been a discussion point, so I wonder if eden is even aware of this issue

this is true. on the point of tone, this is something that bothers me because I feel I go out of my way to be painstakingly clear about what I think. if I were mad at ghug and trying to bully him out of the game, you’d know it. I feel I very plainly stayed calm and collected and did not make it personal. you’d have to go very far out of your way to read anything else into it and come away with a contrary interpretation. and if you do that, that can’t possibly be on me. how the fuck am I supposed to account for people adding in emotion I don’t feel to reach a conclusion I don’t hold, which runs contrary to the things I did say? I feel like I’m held to this impossible standard where at all times I’m expected to know exactly what everyone is really thinking and feeling and be able to predict every last way they’re possibly going to respond and if I ever get anything wrong then it’s not just an error but an indictment of me as a person. it’s really exhausting and nobody here even comes close to living up to that, so why do I have to?

Communication is a two way street - you might put all the effort in to make sure it's fine but the other person still reads it as you're being rude/mean.

I think, as a community, we have a tendency to get pissed at each other and then never address it outside of the game - or we discuss it in our 'friend groups' and it just doesn't get hammered out.

[BusinessLamp]

hi i did a thing. i don't think anyone really tried to use celaph's reads or stances to solve the game last game, so i presume his tendencies of how to interact with teammates will remain fairly consistent. so i went through his iso of both games and jotted notes of how i saw his interactions with people. my main focus going into this is a theory that especially on day one, the people he townreads will end up being town. let's see.

for context, scumteam is celaph/durga/donny/damo/fox+vecna

townleans me
shades donny (maf partner)
questions bob about views on teammate
highlights good post from rdr (about scummate)
highlights good post from jamie (about scummate)
questions teammate
highlights post from maniac (about townie)
questions rdr about teammate
announces townlean on jamie
questions ghug (about townie)
questions demon (about teammate)
Light susses Durga, along with RHK (town) and Donny
questions TFB about teammate
votes teammate
Questions Jamie about teammate
Questions me about bob
votes townie (no justification)
Townreads flum
---- day 2
Weak townlean on Maniac
Townreads me
Defends me as town
last post: calls me and kgray town, bona town.

so he prods about his teammates often, and highlights/townreads strong posts from townspeople (often where they shaded his teammates)

slight defends jamie
questions eden about BB
townleans Eden
answers question about BB
questions ghug
townleans Eden
Questions snowy about kak (kind of pre-defending kak)
questions me about Eden
Townleans snowy, scumleans Sabi, scumleans me, townreads PE,BB, ghug. questions TFB
questions me about sabi
townleans me
responds to eden's inquiry about celaph/sabi (slightly shades sabi)
hedged townleans ghug
shades sabi, TFB. townleans me
scumleans TFB, Sabi
asks why Chaqa wagon, scumleans TFB
townreads PE, ghug, Blamp, Jamie. scumreads Sabi/TFB.
----day 2
scumleans chaqa
townleans Sabi
townleans Maniac, scumleans TFB
townleans BB, defends sabi
townleans me
townleans maniac
strong townreads bona
scumleans chaqa
townleans maniac
townleans me
strong townreads pyxxy
questions TFB
questions damo
case studies chaqa
townleans me, shades bona
shades TFB, Chaqa
defends pyxxy as town
defends pyxxy
shades Maniac
townleans jamie, me. defends sabi against accusation
defends pyxxy as town
scumreads and votes TFB
scumleans Chaqa/TFB pair
townleans Maniac (has wagon on him)
defends Maniac
defends Maniac more
shades damo/chaqa/tfb

idk what i learn from this. i feel like day 1 interactions are more important to compare. jamie/eden/BB/ghug/me come out of this looking better. based on day 1 i think it looks worse on sabi but then that shifts for day 2. day 2 looks good for pyxxy and bona. case studying chaqa prob means chaqa town?

excited to look at this after the game and see where i shouldve gone w it

[Jamiet99uk]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Check your information, this post is not 100% accurate.

[Fluminator]

true

there’s a pretty rough exchange which we’re led to believe resulted in him subbing out, wherein he acts like he’s scared to discuss game issues with me cuz of that argument we had 3 months ago (which he’s never brought up since, until today), but then takes the exact kind of needless personal potshots that would result in the fighting he allegedly wants to avoid. it very much came off to me like I nailed him and he figured he could push my buttons enough to make me blow up and get people to ignore my points. but it backfired

I will read the case later but I do know ghug was genuinely hurt by whatever happened 3 months ago. (He's mentioned it outside the game to me before)
I do not fully understand what is going on between you two tbh.

well, in this game at least,
• I see what I think is suspicious behavior from ghug
• I question him on it and find the answers unsatisfying
• I present case, which receives only surface-level response that does nothing to change my opinion that he is mafia
• Game progresses without anything happening on this front
• I send some emojis in response to something brain says that’s not addressed to ghug in the slightest
• ghug dredges this incident up out of nowhere—in his own comically biased way which, as per usual for ghug, acknowledges his blame in it precisely 0%, presumes all of his grievances to be the only ones which matter and gives precisely zero consideration to the other side—as an attack on not only me personally but also the credibility of the Council
• believing this to be a mafia play and in bad faith regardless, I very specifically do not rise to the bait and call it out as such
• he continues on, getting angrier and angrier, despite me having done absolutely nothing to him here, until he subs out.

put yourself in my shoes.

from my perspective multiple players, ghug included, were being rather toxic to me at the start of M71, completely unprovoked by me. I concededly could have handled it better. but that wasn’t all on me in the slightest. ghug did not talk to me about the incident and gave no unambiguous indication that he cared (he referenced it in the M71 thread a few times in a manner which plausibly could have just been mafia seeking support via emotional appeal).

apparently I’m just magically supposed to know despite never once being told anything that he actually carried a lot of resentment for 3 months, and that when it explodes in a way that’s both not clearly following from any provocation on my part and with timing that would be very tactically chosen if he were mafia, that no actually he is town and his extremely bad faith attack is coming from town.

I increasingly feel ghug puts me in no-win situations where he feels entitled to be as shitty to me as he wants, but if I should ever cross him or wound him then I’ve committed the gravest sin one could commit. say what you will about M71; I feel his take is appallingly biased and lacking in self-awareness, but that’s whatever. my behavior toward him in this game has been absolutely unimpeachable. I have not attacked him personally. I have not accused him unfairly. I have specifically chosen not to escalate his totally unjustified attacks to avoid a repeat of past games’ drama. At this point I’m completely out of options for how to handle it.

It will be okay. I'm sure postgame you can resolve this and I suspect ghug hasn't been the best with communication about it. I have no interest in being the peacemaker or speaking on behalf of ghug's point of view (I don't even fully know it).
I'm not scumreading you or thinking you're a bad person for pushing the slot for that. I'm just telling you you're wrong on the one thing I can comment. Ghug has been scum so many times, he can handle pressure.

[BusinessLamp]

hi flum have you solved the game yet

how do you intend to do so

[BesharamSabi]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Check your information, this post is not 100% accurate.

Yea eden took back his :claim

But then claimed roleblocked when only someone is pr is notified that.

Can you see why I'm confused

[Jamiet99uk]

I could be convinced. Maniac is scum. But right now there would need 4 more hammers.

I don't want to let this slot free back into the wild.

I’m relatively opposed to flipping Flum today.

Like I said before, I actually thought ghug was a PR, so I’m not as convinced Flum must be scum yet.

Maniac meanwhile, needs to go, and we don’t want to waste 48 hours on it. Look what the Durga day did to momentum last time

If we find the extra hammers, I will swap under protest.

If Flum is scum and he makes it to the QT, we will never get him up.

I'm not very caught up. Bear in mind Maniac is caught, I could be convinced to keep him alive temporarily, if you can persuade me that Flum is scum, using reasons other than Ghug's emotional responses to Eden.

Can you do that?

Otherwise it's best to flip Maniac.

[Fluminator]

let me give all of you a free tip on how to persuade me. do not try to manipulate me emotionally.

Does buddying you work? Because I do townread you and you could be in my towncore I'm forming in my head. (Your bud Chaqa is in it too)

[Jamiet99uk]

Once again,

Why did we have two cop claims and why are we believing both cop scans as true?

Check your information, this post is not 100% accurate.

Yea eden took back his :claim

But then claimed roleblocked when only someone is pr is notified that.

Can you see why I'm confused

No further comment on the first part.

Eden has claimed a Roleblock, today?

Like as in a N2 Roleblock? I might have missed that.

Strongly townreading Eden all the same.

[Jamiet99uk]

hi flum have you solved the game yet

how do you intend to do so

I endorse this post. Flum should present a 500 word methodology statement by teatime.

[worcej]

I read further into bozo’s statement, maybe wrongly. Thought he meant the reaction to my case and not whatever that outburst was the next day.

Nonetheless I find Sabi’s implicit premise that you cannot have a belief about ghug’s reaction to a totally in game case on him if you don’t know him outside the game to be highly logically suspect

I think we're best served just ignoring all of it *for the moment*

Motion seconded.

[President Eden]

let me give all of you a free tip on how to persuade me. do not try to manipulate me emotionally.

Does buddying you work? Because I do townread you and you could be in my towncore I'm forming in my head. (Your bud Chaqa is in it too)

50:50, try your luck