M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[ghug]

Kakarroto has replaced Donny Dude

effective immediately.

Vote count update etc. in next post.

FWIW I know this is a really bad take, but I'm just going to say it:

Pretty sure Donny is town since we're at our last miskill and if they didn't replace, then a town!donny being ModK'ed = scum win.

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

[worcej]

Kakarroto has replaced Donny Dude

effective immediately.

Vote count update etc. in next post.

FWIW I know this is a really bad take, but I'm just going to say it:

Pretty sure Donny is town since we're at our last miskill and if they didn't replace, then a town!donny being ModK'ed = scum win.

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

No argument, just leaning towards town (I already did with Donny anyways) slot.

And again - I know it's a bad take.

[ghug]

FWIW I know this is a really bad take, but I'm just going to say it:

Pretty sure Donny is town since we're at our last miskill and if they didn't replace, then a town!donny being ModK'ed = scum win.

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

No argument, just leaning towards town (I already did with Donny anyways) slot.

And again - I know it's a bad take.

So you're saying you expected to townread Donny going into the replacement.

[ghug]

##VOTE Kak for happy bot.

[Jamiet99uk]

FWIW I know this is a really bad take, but I'm just going to say it:

Pretty sure Donny is town since we're at our last miskill and if they didn't replace, then a town!donny being ModK'ed = scum win.

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

No argument, just leaning towards town (I already did with Donny anyways) slot.

And again - I know it's a bad take.

It's a terrible take and you shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.

[BesharamSabi]

Oooo a new GM

GM NOTE:

Eden is the assistant to the assistant GM because both Tom and I were busy at work to do the sub.

[worcej]

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

No argument, just leaning towards town (I already did with Donny anyways) slot.

And again - I know it's a bad take.

So you're saying you expected to townread Donny going into the replacement.

I'm saying I've towned Donny and thought your push on him was bad.

[worcej]

A modkill would have swung the game hugely regardless of direction, and GMs always replace before killing if possible.

No argument, just leaning towards town (I already did with Donny anyways) slot.

And again - I know it's a bad take.

It's a terrible take and you shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.

I'm the Queen of bad takes too.

[ghug]

Oooo a new GM

GM NOTE:

Eden is the assistant to the assistant GM because both Tom and I were busy at work to do the sub.

Which of you is the worst GM, though?

[ghug]

Jamie, you had interest in killing Donny. What happened?

[Jamiet99uk]

Jamie, you had interest in killing Donny. What happened?

I was mostly concerned that he was not participating.

Now he's subbed out. Maybe he's having real-life issues. I do think it's only fair to let Kak speak before we do anything drastic.

[Jamiet99uk]

^ My point is, defending yourself, as you are doing, is natural, but it only goes so far. You also need to give us a better candidate.

You seem to think that Worcej is scum. Yet you also savagely attacked people, including me, for being stupid enough to vote for Maniac when he had been copscanned as innocent. Why does the same not apply to Worcej who was also scanned innocent?

Because regardless of what you think, Maniac was not scummy. Not the case with worcej.

Your scum reads on me are actually on goldie from many phases ago.

What am I doing that is scummy to you?

This response to me from Bob, and Worcej's follow-up comment to that, captured my attention.

Technically, Worcej's assertion, that Bob has not given a reason why he, Worcej is scummy, and that Bob's read is based on the words/actions of Goldfinger before Worcej subbed in, is accurate.

However, it is a very weak defence in the overall context of the game, because Goldfinger did not sub out until Day 7 and he continued to post up to, and including, Night 6.

Worcej, Bob's scumread on you might be more strongly justified if he found something you'd done that was somehow a scumslip, sure. But the fact that he scumread Goldfinger, who has subbed out does not provide you with any grounds for defence, in its own right. Six days and six nights of gameplay could provide abundant reasons to scumread someone and, let's be fair, Goldfinger's attitude was somewhat questionable.

You don't get to re-roll your alignment when you sub into the game. You're not Goldfinger, but it's the same slot, and it has the same alignment, and Bob is not obliged to make a new and separate case against you personally if he feels he has presented good reasons to scumread your slot.

Just a thought.

[worcej]

This is overdue, but here:

Ghug
1. Joined my Flum wagon very late D1 having been on Bob.

2. Was on Celaph relatively early EoD2 and had been there earlier in the day as well. Repeatedly pushed the Celaph wagon and was heavily involved in flipping Celaph there.

3. Last person to move to Durga D3.

4. Was a late Vecna voter D4 and was VERY reluctant to vote Vecna, who he didn't appear to scumread.

5. D5 voted Rdrivera, D6 voted HR, yesterday voted Donny.

Conclusions: First, if Bob is scum I think scum!Ghug would keep bussing Bob for future towncred. If Bob is town this means nothing in particular. Second, D2 stands out. Ghug would have to have been bussing Celaph VERY hard D2 - on balance I think Ghug's D2 voting looks townie. His reluctance to vote Vecna is noticeable. Ghug could be scum here but on the basis of D2 I'm willing to townlean him.

Responses:

1. The D1 mentions of Bob from ghug are weird to me. With 03:26 left in the phase, this is the first indication of any real opinion on Bob.

   ##VOTE damo I guess?
   
   I don't want to kill any of the people with votes except maybe Bob.

   Bob was at the 4th highest position in wagon votes with 2 voters (Maniac and Demon) and I don't see motivation for this post from ghug in the slightest.
   
   On the point of the Flum vote, it does really feel off as well. He spent most of D1 defending the him and not wanting him to die, only to finally say 'not good enough' and put a vote on him. Also of note, by doing that he makes the second highest wagon (Bob btw) less appealing to be jumped on by others.
2. You know, I struggle to find when ghug actually officially scummed celaph for the first time. I don't see natural development here at all from ghug and more he was piggy-backing kgray.
   D1 - 'Gives celaph a day'
   N1 - not a single mention of celaph (via searching with Ctr+F for 'cel)
   D2 - scums him indirectly and then jumps into full-blown scum.
   Bad vibes on the progression here.
3. Of merit, he moved off her to HR to make it 6 Dur - 5 HR but at the same time piggy-backs kgray's read that Durga is 100% scum. Otherwise not much to be said here.
4. I don't get the same vibe that he was 'VERY reluctant', but I see some distancing and shading people who were voting Vecna. The final vote was meaningless FWIW.
5. These votes seem meh. There's been sprinkles of scum vibes in prior posts/lists to justify them as the game went on. Better adaptation in reads than Bob.

Randomly while looking at ghug's posts, I found these posts weird:

I was roleblocked

Seems legit.

Over-the-top sell of a fake RB here? That's the vibe I get.

Huh, kgray really took any excuse to jump off of celaph and durga huh? THis also looks good for ghug, both the fakeclaiming RB and voting me over "not believing the claim". Not a good look for kgray though.
##vote celaph

Seems to be shading kgray for movement off two players (who turned out to be scum later) and then not referenced back ever? Knows too much maybe?

Can y'all just concede?

This is the most non-ghug post I've seen him make after a scum player is flipped. Performative anyone?

[Jamiet99uk]

Randomly while looking at ghug's posts, I found these posts weird:

I was roleblocked

Seems legit.

Over-the-top sell of a fake RB here? That's the vibe I get.

Ghug withdrew his roleblock claim fairly quickly (with Chaqa claiming the actual roleblock). If this was a pre-planned fake roleblock claim, what was Bob and Ghug's plan, and why did Ghug abandon it so quickly?

[Jamiet99uk]

@Kakarroto:

Do you have anything to say?

[Kakarroto]

Heya guys, how are you doing? I feel like going to the coliseum for a little peek, watching some gladiators duking it out, when suddenly a pair of guards stopping behind me and asking me to join the fight, pushing me over the boundary with only a pair of sandals and a quick snack in my hands.

To inform you, I haven't had the opportunity (was too busy getting declared on in civ) before to read all of the thread, but I have read it for the last few days so I have at least that. Also no big pre-prepared flavour post since no time for that. Probably would be just something about Eve and League or something silly.

First of all, I was really surprised you voted one of the two cop scans, that's something I wouldn't have done, especially since I think mafia would've let them stay them up for them having a free choice for the night and let town soak in paranoia to make them do their job, in a mexican standoff kind of way. I would've been much happier with just voting out of them and hunt for mafia in the remaining players, if lucky even hit the godfather and confirm the two cop scans. Sure, the chance of a scanned godfather is there, but I don't think that happened.

Second, I'm really unsure who is mafia, I'm better at reading people reacting to me (at least I would think so) and normally my reads aren't too good anyway (though I have some rare strokes of brilliance), I think everyone who played with me a few games knows what I mean. Especially I often maf-read PR's (at least that wouldn't be an issue this game anymore, I think? I know demon was cop, who was doc? or is our medical assistant still in the game?*) and tend to townclear more than find maf.

So I wouldn't vote for gold/wor right now, also, I didn't get any bad vibes from RD, from what I saw, looks like his typical towngame. After that, it gets muddier, ghug is looking towny but something (probably just my inner voice) is keeping me from putting him as 'safe'. I think I will get a clearer picture after some posts.

considering that:

@worcej what does it say about town losing that mexican standoff? Regarding my theory, who would've pulled off something like that?

@RD am I correct that only the goon and the godfather are left in the game or is the goon actually another maf-role? What is your take on the identity of said godfather?

@ghug what would you tell my inner voice that makes me feel terrified that you are mafia?

oh right, I nearly forgot I can do that* myself:
#ask GM did the doctor get banished to the shadow realm already and if yes who was it?

[worcej]

Because regardless of what you think, Maniac was not scummy. Not the case with worcej.

Your scum reads on me are actually on goldie from many phases ago.

What am I doing that is scummy to you?

This response to me from Bob, and Worcej's follow-up comment to that, captured my attention.

Technically, Worcej's assertion, that Bob has not given a reason why he, Worcej is scummy, and that Bob's read is based on the words/actions of Goldfinger before Worcej subbed in, is accurate.

However, it is a very weak defence in the overall context of the game, because Goldfinger did not sub out until Day 7 and he continued to post up to, and including, Night 6.

Worcej, Bob's scumread on you might be more strongly justified if he found something you'd done that was somehow a scumslip, sure. But the fact that he scumread Goldfinger, who has subbed out does not provide you with any grounds for defence, in its own right. Six days and six nights of gameplay could provide abundant reasons to scumread someone and, let's be fair, Goldfinger's attitude was somewhat questionable.

You don't get to re-roll your alignment when you sub into the game. You're not Goldfinger, but it's the same slot, and it has the same alignment, and Bob is not obliged to make a new and separate case against you personally if he feels he has presented good reasons to scumread your slot.

Just a thought.

Sometimes let the person respond to the question before you insert yourself with the deep dive Jamie...

FWIW, I am not defending myself with the lack of scum vibes off my actions. But it's interesting to see how Bob directs it at me specifically here. Generalizing a little bit, most players make distinctions when a sub is in - such as saying 'goldie/worcej' or 'goldie's slot' - but Bob says me explicitly numerous times since I joined and infrequently brings up goldie.

So I want him to tell me if there is something I am explicitly being scummy and justifying the continuation of his scumread on Goldie.

[ghug]

This is overdue, but here:

Ghug
1. Joined my Flum wagon very late D1 having been on Bob.

2. Was on Celaph relatively early EoD2 and had been there earlier in the day as well. Repeatedly pushed the Celaph wagon and was heavily involved in flipping Celaph there.

3. Last person to move to Durga D3.

4. Was a late Vecna voter D4 and was VERY reluctant to vote Vecna, who he didn't appear to scumread.

5. D5 voted Rdrivera, D6 voted HR, yesterday voted Donny.

Conclusions: First, if Bob is scum I think scum!Ghug would keep bussing Bob for future towncred. If Bob is town this means nothing in particular. Second, D2 stands out. Ghug would have to have been bussing Celaph VERY hard D2 - on balance I think Ghug's D2 voting looks townie. His reluctance to vote Vecna is noticeable. Ghug could be scum here but on the basis of D2 I'm willing to townlean him.

Responses:

1. The D1 mentions of Bob from ghug are weird to me. With 03:26 left in the phase, this is the first indication of any real opinion on Bob.

   ##VOTE damo I guess?
   
   I don't want to kill any of the people with votes except maybe Bob.

   Bob was at the 4th highest position in wagon votes with 2 voters (Maniac and Demon) and I don't see motivation for this post from ghug in the slightest.
   
   On the point of the Flum vote, it does really feel off as well. He spent most of D1 defending the him and not wanting him to die, only to finally say 'not good enough' and put a vote on him. Also of note, by doing that he makes the second highest wagon (Bob btw) less appealing to be jumped on by others.
2. You know, I struggle to find when ghug actually officially scummed celaph for the first time. I don't see natural development here at all from ghug and more he was piggy-backing kgray.
   D1 - 'Gives celaph a day'
   N1 - not a single mention of celaph (via searching with Ctr+F for 'cel)
   D2 - scums him indirectly and then jumps into full-blown scum.
   Bad vibes on the progression here.
3. Of merit, he moved off her to HR to make it 6 Dur - 5 HR but at the same time piggy-backs kgray's read that Durga is 100% scum. Otherwise not much to be said here.
4. I don't get the same vibe that he was 'VERY reluctant', but I see some distancing and shading people who were voting Vecna. The final vote was meaningless FWIW.
5. These votes seem meh. There's been sprinkles of scum vibes in prior posts/lists to justify them as the game went on. Better adaptation in reads than Bob.

Randomly while looking at ghug's posts, I found these posts weird:

I was roleblocked

Seems legit.

Over-the-top sell of a fake RB here? That's the vibe I get.

Huh, kgray really took any excuse to jump off of celaph and durga huh? THis also looks good for ghug, both the fakeclaiming RB and voting me over "not believing the claim". Not a good look for kgray though.
##vote celaph

Seems to be shading kgray for movement off two players (who turned out to be scum later) and then not referenced back ever? Knows too much maybe?

Can y'all just concede?

This is the most non-ghug post I've seen him make after a scum player is flipped. Performative anyone?

First, there were 20 million people in this game. Townreading a bunch of the wagons and saying I'm open to a nullread Bob without having discussed him much isn't weird. Second, saying I'm giving celaph a day is scumreading him. Third, most people (including me) read Bob's "seems legit" as a sarcastic questioning of my fakeclaim. It definitely didn't serve to reinforce it.

Fourth, I don't have time to go through and nitpick at work, but you seem to be isoing in the bot, which means you're bound to miss things.

[ghug]

@ghug what would you tell my inner voice that makes me feel terrified that you are mafia?

Suck it up.

I think I've fooled the world enough times that nobody's ever going to feel safe with me.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Kak:

Bozotheclown died EoN2 - They were DOCTOR.