M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[BobMcBob]

Anyways, I've asked Bob to explain his Goldie hardon several times now and he's produced nothing. I've done a read of his votes/opinions over the course of the game and they're pretty bad. He's been focused so hard on the goldie slot and been wishy-washy with every other vote/read.

It's hard to figure out Bob's stance on celaph, his analysis post @ 11:52 left looked like he was towning him and poking holes in the wagon (which was only at 2 votes at the time). He said he would go for celaph, Jamie or goldie happily near the end of the phase, but found a BS reason to go for TFB with 3 minutes left of the phase to make him the lead wagon. I honestly think Bob tried to protect celaph D2 with this move.

He's gave himself outs on his Durga read (saying he scummed her because most others scummed her).

He avoided Vecna's wagon and any real opinion on him until it was a forgone conclusion.

I probably won't be here for EON, thus why I am saying this all now, but Bob looks like shit based off VCA and lack of independent reads (all of his reads are dependent on others opinions) and no changes in his scum read as new information becomes presented.

Case on gold

Defense against literally everything else you said

[BobMcBob]

You have no right to be outraged when you don’t contribute enough anything to the phase.

You have no right to say I didn't contribute when your entire game has consisted of shading me, tunnelling Jamie while shading me for tunnelling, and voting out someone you thought was town.

You’re forgetting my comments on Damo, my pointing out TFB’s inconsistencies, and also pointing at ghug too.

Which shockingly is more than your gameplay so far lol

I have actually commented on every player in the game, multiple times. Which just goes to show how incredibly towny I am.

This on the other hand is a very poor defence of your play while continuing to be particularly reductionistic toward my play and approximately nobody else's. In fact, I could similarly say that your whole game has been shading me, since you've spent at least ~20% of your posts doing that. You have contributed literally nothing else to this game at all.

[ghug]

Scummy/helpful for town is a false dichotomy

See: most of your town games

It is scummy not to try to help town. I will fucking die on that hill.

If you think otherwise, explain the point of playing, as town, if not to try to help town?

Where did Maniac do townie things that were likely to help find scum and contribute to a town win?

Maniac did not help town. Maniac played in a way that is consistent with the way he plays as town. It was not how he plays as scum. Therefore Maniac was not likely to be scum regardless of how unhelpful his play was.

Yes, people should try to help town when they are town, I agree. People should engage with the game. People do not always do that. Just because someone is not helping town, does not make them likely to be scum.

Case in point, Flum.

Case in point, Maniac.

Case in point, everyone you voted for in M66, in which you put on the most miserable town performance in webDIp history, on par with brainbomb's worst.

I don't expect you to ever realise that, but it would be nice.

The deep irony here is that miskilling people like this consistently is itself unhelpful to town.

Flum wasn't even unhelpful beyond his contribution to getting himself killed. Trolling to get us talking is a decent thing to do D1.

[BobMcBob]

It is scummy not to try to help town. I will fucking die on that hill.

If you think otherwise, explain the point of playing, as town, if not to try to help town?

Where did Maniac do townie things that were likely to help find scum and contribute to a town win?

Maniac did not help town. Maniac played in a way that is consistent with the way he plays as town. It was not how he plays as scum. Therefore Maniac was not likely to be scum regardless of how unhelpful his play was.

Yes, people should try to help town when they are town, I agree. People should engage with the game. People do not always do that. Just because someone is not helping town, does not make them likely to be scum.

Case in point, Flum.

Case in point, Maniac.

Case in point, everyone you voted for in M66, in which you put on the most miserable town performance in webDIp history, on par with brainbomb's worst.

I don't expect you to ever realise that, but it would be nice.

The deep irony here is that miskilling people like this consistently is itself unhelpful to town.

Flum wasn't even unhelpful beyond his contribution to getting himself killed. Trolling to get us talking is a decent thing to do D1.

I'm fully aware, but I thought it best to not insult Jamie even further in the same post.

[worcej]

Goldfinger time!
Water problems D1, he gets a pass.
Almost immediately comes back with a huge post which restates a lot of events and not much else. There's a bunch of reads at the beginning. The post is fine. Then a post with reads later, which is also fine. Gold finger completely forgetting I was a wagon, especially after reading through all of the EoD, is rather strange. He does not update his case on HR as a result.

Then goldie starts talking about DL8 and roleblocks... He says that scum would likely be roleblocking their kill target, which throws shade on Chaqa. He also states that scum might have killed DL8 because of something he mentioned offhand in his wall post. "DL was for sure scum sniping for PRs" is a very odd thing to say, and why would you come to that conclusion? And who would've decided that DL8 was a good PR snipe except goldie? He later pulls up three posts where people mention DL8, but none of them suggest that his activity is unusual for him. Which is what goldie states they are. This whole thing feels... off. Combine this with the fact that it has been dredged up that goldie has soft-gloated like this before and it looks worse again.

If he does flip scum, I think Chaqa is pretty much as good as clear. And he also strangely shades the Fox/Vecna wagon for being predicated on stuff in the first half of D1, which could be another connection.

I expected to come out of this scumreading goldie, but darn, I didn't remember the roleblock thing being so bad. I honestly like a ##vote goldie to see if we can get a wagon going.

My takeaway from your goldie read here is “scum sniping for PR’s” means the same as “PR Hunting”, which is something people do quite often and is bad. If DL was indeed doing that, then he deserves to be called out for it. I wasn’t there and am not going to deep dive that interaction for you.

The DL activity comment may seem off, but the bot allows for a lot of deep dive analysis of player. People do that from time to time and I cannot speak for goldie if he did or didn’t, just that some people know how to use the bot well.

Finally, Scum often do put the RB on the kill, this isn’t uncommon. Chaqa deserved some shade at that moment because of the RB clain, so that isn’t scummy honestly.

In general, your concerns for goldie here seem to be due to lack of experience or remembering prior games. I would suggest in post-game, you go back and read mafia chats to see scum reasonings - you’ll find a lot of interesting analysis and what scum teams look at.

[ghug]

I'm thinking it's just Donny/Jamie at this point, with rdr the next best guess and TFB also in play if Donny specifically is town.

[worcej]

Okay time to make fun of TFB/overexplain my voting patterns.

I think my day 1 vote reasoning was pretty darn obvious. I very much townread flum, and I didn't like the reasoning for the rdr wagon. TFB had been scummier than either of them so I tried joining the flashwagon in the hopes that we might actually flip scum.

Day 2 was admittedly strange. I preferred the celaph wagon to TFB for quite a long time, but I was never particularly convinced that he was scum, as stated in my earlier post most of my scumreading him came from other reads on him that I trusted. But TFB kept digging himself into a hole and making himself look worse and more petty, and I was swayed somewhat by kgray and blamp's noise. Then TFB voted celaph and for some reason that just didn't sit right with me and put me off the wagon. I can't remember exactly why, it was probably more vibes and mindset at the time, and not so much logical reasoning, but when I said TFB's vote made me not want to vote celaph, that's basically what happened. I tried to move to celaph at EoD for tie prevention after seeing how the votes moved, but got in too late.

Day 3 I was pretty convinced Durga was scum but I also very much scumread HR so I didn't have any problem with voting him. My main reason for staying there was to try and make the day slightly less of a stale, infoless runaway wagon scenario than it was looking to be, which obviously failed miserably and we lost a ton of momentum anyway. I moved to Durga because my vote didn't matter at that point and I just felt like being there.

Day 4 I scumread goldie heavily, far more so than Vecna, but I moved to Vecna for consolidation to make sure there was no tie after seeing how the votes were falling.

Also I got the impression that the "strong contingent" of people refusing to vote me was literally just Bona who had no other ideas in the game and also blamp. If there was anyone else, they weren't really speaking out about it to my memory. Also "rock solid 5" is heavily misinterpreting how voting works.

I think your D2 explanation is overly poor and can be to cover up your attempted save of celaph. You explicitly gave a list of three players you would be okay to vote for, then moved off to someone not on that list.

You get mad that we vote off your list last phase, but do the same thing yourself? That doesn’t make sense.

[worcej]

I'm thinking it's just Donny/Jamie at this point, with rdr the next best guess and TFB also in play if Donny specifically is town.

Bob and damo are town to you then?

[ghug]

I'm thinking it's just Donny/Jamie at this point, with rdr the next best guess and TFB also in play if Donny specifically is town.

Bob and damo are town to you then?

Yeah, maybe I should be reconsidering damo, but he's felt like town damo all game. I had been wavering on Bob, but he's been very townie on tone tonight, and much of his early game play, like the callout on my fake RB claim, solidified a townread.

[worcej]

Goldfinger time!
Water problems D1, he gets a pass.
Almost immediately comes back with a huge post which restates a lot of events and not much else. There's a bunch of reads at the beginning. The post is fine. Then a post with reads later, which is also fine. Gold finger completely forgetting I was a wagon, especially after reading through all of the EoD, is rather strange. He does not update his case on HR as a result.

Then goldie starts talking about DL8 and roleblocks... He says that scum would likely be roleblocking their kill target, which throws shade on Chaqa. He also states that scum might have killed DL8 because of something he mentioned offhand in his wall post. "DL was for sure scum sniping for PRs" is a very odd thing to say, and why would you come to that conclusion? And who would've decided that DL8 was a good PR snipe except goldie? He later pulls up three posts where people mention DL8, but none of them suggest that his activity is unusual for him. Which is what goldie states they are. This whole thing feels... off. Combine this with the fact that it has been dredged up that goldie has soft-gloated like this before and it looks worse again.

If he does flip scum, I think Chaqa is pretty much as good as clear. And he also strangely shades the Fox/Vecna wagon for being predicated on stuff in the first half of D1, which could be another connection.

I expected to come out of this scumreading goldie, but darn, I didn't remember the roleblock thing being so bad. I honestly like a ##vote goldie to see if we can get a wagon going.

Bob, for someone who draws the (somewhat correct, I suppose..) conclusion that Chaqa would be semi-clear if I flip scum, how are you not understanding my statement of "DL was the scum team sniping for PRs"?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you may have never been scum before, NK discussions roughly break down into 3 reasons 1) Someone is so obviously town (hard or soft clear) that they need to go. DL obviously did not fit this 2) This person might be a PR, but even if they're not they're a super scary town player, so let's kill them. Very typical N1 behavior, and you often see people like HR getting killed this way. And xorxes. DL is not one to inspire fear 3) Genuine belief someone is a PR.

Why did you expect to come out of it scumreading me though? That sounds like you went into the re-read looking for evidence to back up a scumread that would be believable. Honestly with that last paragraph, the whole post reeks something terrible.

##Vote Bob. Still willing to switch to my other votes, but holy shit how has nobody else caught that? For emphasis again.

I expected to come out of this scumreading goldie

I'm more surprised you didn't catch that I said the exact same thing in my post on celaph. I do, in fact, already have an impression on someone from what I recall from the game before I go to iso them. I had an impression of you being scummy, therefore expecting to scumread you after isoing you. I'm just being transparent about my thought process. Same for celaph, which you have mysteriously/conveniently overlooked.

In fact, I scumread you more because of this. Also have you never heard of "look who's not on our scumteam kills?" Or doc avoidance kills? Maybe the scumteam didn't want to hit kgray/blamp/jamie because that's almost certainly who the doc would target. Or because they're scum.

Anybody wanna flash goldie with me?

Goldie actually makes a good point here, you just don’t agree with it Bob.

[worcej]

I'm thinking it's just Donny/Jamie at this point, with rdr the next best guess and TFB also in play if Donny specifically is town.

Bob and damo are town to you then?

Yeah, maybe I should be reconsidering damo, but he's felt like town damo all game. I had been wavering on Bob, but he's been very townie on tone tonight, and much of his early game play, like the callout on my fake RB claim, solidified a townread.

Noted.

[Jamiet99uk]

If I die..... meh, I don't know anymore.
Do whatever you think best, and good luck.

[BobMcBob]

Okay if ghug is scum I think we lose and I'm okay with that, he played well. I'm confident rdr is town, and Donny seems pretty good. Jamie is not my first choice but is a candidate for scum. Damo is pretty bad. TFB and goldfinger are my best guesses for scum, and I have reasons for that. You can find them if I die.

I expect either ghug or me to die tonight, unless scum hit rdr for being towny.

[Tom Bombadil]

NIGHT HAS ENDED. PLEASE HOLD

[Tom Bombadil]

TheFlyingBoat has DIED! They were a VANILLA TOWNIE.

Day 8 has begun. You may now post.

[rdrivera2005]

I wrote the following message and missed the time to post before EON:

Well, this is the first time I feel I can be the NK. And iI will be happy with it.

I have only one solid townread: Bob.

I think Donny EOD yesterday is a townie one or he is putting an impressive performance

I still think Jamiet is town, but I am starting to second guess myself.

I think Gold/Worcej is scum.

So, the other one is Damo/Ghug/TFB in this order.

[worcej]

Okay if ghug is scum I think we lose and I'm okay with that, he played well. I'm confident rdr is town, and Donny seems pretty good. Jamie is not my first choice but is a candidate for scum. Damo is pretty bad. TFB and goldfinger are my best guesses for scum, and I have reasons for that. You can find them if I die.

I expect either ghug or me to die tonight, unless scum hit rdr for being towny.

How do you feel now that TFB is dead?

[rdrivera2005]

You can take TFB off and add Jamiet.

But I really don't know at this point. We have only one miskill left and I don't know what to do.

[rdrivera2005]

Okay if ghug is scum I think we lose and I'm okay with that, he played well. I'm confident rdr is town, and Donny seems pretty good. Jamie is not my first choice but is a candidate for scum. Damo is pretty bad. TFB and goldfinger are my best guesses for scum, and I have reasons for that. You can find them if I die.

I expect either ghug or me to die tonight, unless scum hit rdr for being towny.

How do you feel now that TFB is dead?

I didn't expect him to be the NK. I thought Bob ,Ghug and I were more likely considering we are less scumread and not a likely miskill.

[worcej]

It’s 5-2 and I know I am VT.

If Bob is town, then this game is over if he and I make it to Kilo. He already is fine giving the game to ghug if he’s scum.

Rdr still living honestly alarms me - he was who I figured would die last night due to having the least amount of shade and connecting references. Boat could’ve easily been MK’ed.

##vote rdr