M72 - “Echoes of Evelyn” - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[TheFlyingBoat]

So let's begin a what happened at EoD (t-10 mins) analysis.

Only three people jumped off of Fluminator wagon after it really hit critical mass. Those were Bona, Blamp, and Demon. I think DL did a great job of tackling the Demon issue already. Bona and Blamp both voted for me which is fine, they already had their votes on me before, so that isn't as weird as the Demon one, but what is weird is that if they preferred my wagon to Flum's why not just stay on that one from the beginning?

If you think I am scum, which once again is your prerogative, I find it hard to imagine a world in which you seriously think Flum is scum too. I was the 2nd person on Flum and from the time I began researching the Flum scum tell to the end of day, I spent SEVEN hours on him. That's an inordinate amount of effort for scum theater and would be a really stupid bus attempt, given that if I didn't join chances are Jamie's attempted push on Flum withers on the vine. Remember while Jamie was going after Flum at first there was no real voting pressure on him from anyone else for hours. After all, after I joined the wagon it would still take nearly another three hours for someone else to join (damo) and nearly five and half hours of constant arguing by me and jamie to get a 4th (ignoring Flum's self-vote that shows up on the bot when he actually voted for me).

Now Bona's logic I can mostly follow. He refused to let Bob die for whatever reason, he sorta liked the Flum wagon after Flum says donny dying means Flum vs Jamie/me continues into tomorrow, but still had me as his favorite wagon. Blamp's was weirder as he seems to genuinely like both wagons when surely there odds of that fight being SvS are rock bottom and how unlike Bona he strongly town read me during the day. The justification that he gave of me trying to switch my vote onto rdr being sus clearly didn't hold up given the primary focus of about seven hours of my real world time was on getting Flum voted off and I never gave any indication I'd consider switching my vote onto rdr. He then doubles down and claims even the mere proffering of a scum read I had on rdr was scummy which either seems really questionable new town play or a post hoc rationalization by a scum member looking to create some plausible deniability and avoid responsibility. Now so far, I like Blamp and still think he is slight town, but if it comes late in the game and I am dead and Blamp is around and looking kinda sus, people should come back to this and look to the potential it is the latter option.

Other switches after Flum's post to try and save flum included kgray switching onto Bob from rdr. She seemed surprised no one else was switching after his wall post, but I don't see why.

Kgray and Blamp seem to be widely townread so that declaration by him doesn't seem particularly interesting He says Fox and Durga are scum, but that was originally said by jamie and echoed by multiple like hours and hours before. His bozo questioning thing was already beaten out of him after I reposted the same question multiple times like an hour before. Then he makes some activity reads which are blah. Some weird stuff about Maniac that I don't get because I don't know his meta, so I'll leave that to others. I guess the HR thought is one nice thing. RDR was already heavily discussed by kgray, me, and HR for some time so that's not much either tbh. And his scum read of me was probably the oldest thing in there and should surprise no one.

So I don't get why she is surprised by no one is moving. Outside of the commentary on HR literally nothing was interesting. I am more surprised that as many people moved as did tbh. That being said, kgray is still my strongest townread. Her frustration seemed genuine, her analysis on rdr seemed to well-directed. Her evolution on flum seemed townie. Tbh her general vibe was very townie throughout the day.

Bozo also switched onto Flum as he thought it would be a good way to get info and didn't believe Flum's explanation. At first I did suggest that he could have just made a mistake when it came to misremembering Flum's trust tell nonsense, but I don't know, something about how he said it seemed fake despite me rubbing it in kgray's face contemporaneously and gloating. Maybe Flum is right and there is more there there since Bozo didn't seem to know what Flum was doing as Flum hoped he did.

I really don't like rdr's vote as that just seems like despite finding every excuse under the sun to not vote for him for hours, he finally capitulated when his wagon started to grow.

I really like ghug's EOD. Very much took control of it, called out bona for what he thought was weird, seemed to apply pressure in what looked like townie ways on rdr and Bob before settling down on Flum. Also a decent town read of mine. I am glad my prediction to the god thread that our fight early seemed TvT seems better in my mind.

I'll go over a full day reread tomorrow. These thoughts are very scatterbrained, unorganized, unedited, and stream of conscious-y, so sorry in advance for the word salad. I probably should toss the word Durga into it a bunch of times so that she'll read it all, but I figure she'll be happier with me if she just lets her eyes glaze over this mess.

[BusinessLamp]

Oh man I wanted to reject for towncred but you didn't invite me. You townread the shit out of me earlier. Why no invite?

Peak Thucydides.

switching your vote to Flum has thrown me for a loop lmao

Why do you think I did it?

at first i was like "whoa did they change to confirm the vote stays on Flum after seeing me and Bona change off it? potentially to protect boat"

and i'm a bit confused that your assertion is you did it as a joke?

like i am almost willing to accept it but if you do not do that the vote is 7-6. that's too close to joke with. but also kgray and demon vote after you. it's just all confusing to me.

[BusinessLamp]

Blamp's was weirder as he seems to genuinely like both wagons when surely there odds of that fight being SvS are rock bottom and how unlike Bona he strongly town read me during the day. The justification that he gave of me trying to switch my vote onto rdr being sus clearly didn't hold up given the primary focus of about seven hours of my real world time was on getting Flum voted off and I never gave any indication I'd consider switching my vote onto rdr. He then doubles down and claims even the mere proffering of a scum read I had on rdr was scummy which either seems really questionable new town play or a post hoc rationalization by a scum member looking to create some plausible deniability and avoid responsibility.

for me the bob and rdr wagons just gave me an awful gut feeling. i felt like no matter what the options would likely be town v town, and that at least if i was the one trying to force a direction that i could know it wasn't coming from a place of evil. and when you vocalize suspicion of rdr, who i have a slight townread on, while also being a main proponent on flum's wagon, who i couldn't make sense of either way but my gut was saying he was innocent [but expendable at that point], it raises suspicion. In the case that they're both innocent (which, hey, one is!), your optimal play as mafia is to ensure the counterwagon is also a townie. That's what it felt like. trying to push for both wagons of the day just feels very manipulative to me, especially when you're steadfast on one. i get that maybe that's wrong and you should be allowed to vocalize your opinions and blah blah blah, but in a time when i'm trying to actively analyze why votes are progressing as it happens, it stood out. the other thing that put me onto you was that you said you didn't like the donny wagon out of the blue, and then i asked you twice to elaborate on it and you ignored me.

[BusinessLamp]

also i didn't think you vs flum was scum vs scum, i thought it was more likely one of you was. me being okay with either vote doesn't mean that the scenario i see is "they are scum together"

[Jamiet99uk]

you were resistent to tfb tho

yes, i townread boatman

stop that

Why are you mad about this particular thing?

[BobMcBob]

I think TFB scumslipped by +1ing this post.

Also reaally dislike the moving to TFB at the end, especially from RHK. Reeks of just trying to avoid responsibility.

you don't even believe in scumslips. also, how can that be a scumslip?

Yeah I'm being silly.

The entire premise of my post was that Flum was going to flip town. Why would one of the loudest advocates for Flum's death agree with me?

Obviously he just dislikes me more. Which of course begs the question...
Also, most, if not all of the other +1s I've seen from TFB were for anything critical of flum, so this one seems very off character.
Are we reading into this too much? Probably. Is it interesting anyway? Yes. If you wanna write another essay, TFB, here you go.

[BobMcBob]

Or he sees Flum running away with it and is choosing to preemptively shit on town's thought processes rather than dirty his hands needlessly.

I think TFB scumslipped by +1ing this post.

Also reaally dislike the moving to TFB at the end, especially from RHK. Reeks of just trying to avoid responsibility.

How is that a scum slip? Because I considered the possibility I could have been wrong and what rdr's behavior could be in that scenario? The way I saw it at the time is as follows: If it were scum!Flum, rdr would try and claim he was right all along and spooked by me weirdly joining the wagon (how he thought it was weird given my hours of proselytizing is beyond me). If it were town!Flum then rdr gets to wash his hands of it all and say he was right all along, tfb is super sus for pushing this wagon, let's kill him D2 fast as he has to be scum and that he never wanted any part of the Flum wagon even if he thought what Flum did was weird.

Never mind then, it was actually just TFB tunneling too hard on rdr to notice that the post wasn't actually shading rdr. Which weirdly enough, actually makes me feel better about TFB.

[Jamiet99uk]

if bona dies i dont know that i'll be able to emotionally recover

It's only a game.

[BobMcBob]

Annoying.

Vintage

Well what else am I to say?

This community needs to learn that making up silly lies as a form of reaction test is not a useful strategy and rarely leads to good outcomes.

Well, not when you in particular jump on them like a raving lunatic and refuse to back down under any circumstances.

[kgray]

goldfinger really buddying up to the town council…

lmao jk, thank you for the thoughts. would be interested for you to articulate on kgray a bit more. I’m exploring the thought of a Durga/donny scum pair which would make sense as to why donny was calm. But also maybe donny was just calm. Need to reread

I don't have clear thoughts on kgray, unfortunately. There's a lot there to unpack. She did defend Flum early and often, which gave immediate town points imo. But there's been this underlying vein of desiring others to recognize the effort and work she did (a spat with Durga earlier...the comment right before this, etc). That's eroded a lot of the town cred I was giving. But I'd say generally more good than bad.

lol what is scummy about not wanting people to ignore your contributions?

[BobMcBob]

Also I would like everyone on my wagon at the end of the day (except maniac) to explain why. I don't care if you have stated a case on me already, please state it again anyway. Not that I think that'll be a problem.

bruh

That's not a very strong case.

[Jamiet99uk]

Okay I'm not surprised I missed the case on rdr. It was mostly HR saying very weak things in very obscure ways and since I was tight on time I tended to ignore posts that said nothing in too many words.
"Ah yes, some noncommittal reactions with players I am unsure of."
"What ho, I see a connection with Flum but you are focussing on a connection with bozo, whatever are you thinking?"
"Hmm yes rdr sure has been hard to follow"
Colour me surprised that the wagon never took off, or that I completely failed to remember any arguments for it.

Now who's acting like they have intellectual superiority? To think this is what I get for being nice! Maximum ego must soon be unleashed.

Oh lord the world isn't ready for max ego HR

I have seen HR's ego in full force. Unleashed upon the world, it is a terrible, savage, unconquerable thing. He slaughters any who dare question him, and pursues his arbitrarily-chosen targets until all around him are dead, friend or foe. Truly it is a phenomenon that is terrible to behold and painful to endure.

Dearest HR, please keep the stopper on your bottle. These young people would never recover. Lord, I know I haven't.

[Jamiet99uk]

Hr could you explain your progression on Bob at eod
I feel like you went from Bob is clueless to him being your strongest townread?
Was there a reason for flum over myself at that time of your vote on flum?

Bob got called out for making a lot of clueless posts going 'WTF is X wagon??@. Bob then started being voted. Bob then reacted by making even more clueless posts going 'WTF is Y wagon???'. This is not a response I would expect scum-Bob to make.

So you conclude that Bob is a gormless Village Idiot, but not scum.

[Jamiet99uk]

Okay I'm not surprised I missed the case on rdr. It was mostly HR saying very weak things in very obscure ways and since I was tight on time I tended to ignore posts that said nothing in too many words.
"Ah yes, some noncommittal reactions with players I am unsure of."
"What ho, I see a connection with Flum but you are focussing on a connection with bozo, whatever are you thinking?"
"Hmm yes rdr sure has been hard to follow"
Colour me surprised that the wagon never took off, or that I completely failed to remember any arguments for it.

Now who's acting like they have intellectual superiority? To think this is what I get for being nice! Maximum ego must soon be unleashed.

I'm not implying you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand how voting works, unlike some.

Bob understands how people vote - but not why.

[Jamiet99uk]

I just looked at you, HR and TFB and I didn't check after you voted him for some reason because I thought you'd shut up after that since you had nothing to say or something. Dunno why actually. Your case still sucks though.

excuse me?

The case is bad. It is not good. It has little to make me think rdr might be scum. I disagree with it. I think it is weak.

Eeep, mega Jamiet99uk scum style vibes in this post.

That is, when I want to make a point but I know I don't have strong grounds (or if I'm just, y'know, making shit up) I have a strong tendency to repeat myself using different words, to say the same thing but in multiple cadences, to go over the same essential point, to reiterate needlessly, if you will.

[Jamiet99uk]

I feel like town Flum posts that with about 5 seconds to go as a fuck you, rather than a few minutes early as a hail marry change the wagon attempt

I will note this shade by HR on Flum last minute.

I wouldn't describe that as "shade".

[BobMcBob]

Hr could you explain your progression on Bob at eod
I feel like you went from Bob is clueless to him being your strongest townread?
Was there a reason for flum over myself at that time of your vote on flum?

Bob got called out for making a lot of clueless posts going 'WTF is X wagon??@. Bob then started being voted. Bob then reacted by making even more clueless posts going 'WTF is Y wagon???'. This is not a response I would expect scum-Bob to make.

Called out for a lot is a strange way to say exactly one. Even more would also be referring to one post that was largely rhetorical, yes? You seem to have inflated my cluelesness in your mind. You may now take back your townread if desired.

[Bonatogether]

I typed up a bunch of EOD notes and then I read them over and they were kind of useless, so here are the main points i guess

- HR actually did a lot more subtle work, whether deliberate or not, to solidify the flum kill than I remembered. Main things I noticed were their interaction with kgray over the flum-rdr connection (which I agreed with, but definitely would've served to nudge rdr considerers towards flum) and the post that town!flum wouldn't wallpost with so much time left before the deadline (which I do not agree with in general, although that's easy to say now). I don't think it's alignment indicative or inconsistent given that they generally wanted flum to die, but it's pretty noticeable.

- I don't think lamp and bona were contradicting their stated tfb>flum>bob preferences at EOD, but I would like to hear why they thought the flum wallpost was so intrinsically towny, because neither actually stated that at EOD. kgray also seemed to oppose a tfb wagon and not explicitly oppose a bob wagon, so given that she thought the flum post was towny this makes sense.

- The actually interesting switch is DemonRHK, who voted damo -> celaph -> flum -> theflyingboat in the final hour. The whole EOD is kind of weird, I don't get the logic behind

I townread more people on the donny wagon, but the flum convo will not go away till one of flum or jamie is dead. Ghug is a meh 3rd wagon.

Anyone0 feeling a flash ##vote damo wagon?

It also seems inconsistent with

The flum wagon has ben rigid which cements my townreads on most of them, regardless of damo being on it.

##Vote flum

(if you already kinda townread the whole flum wagon, why did you like the donny wagon more? why did you try to flash damo and celaph?)

and the final TFB vote (they never really talk about bob at all?)

- it's unusual that bob was asking for reasons for a bunch of wagons at EOD but not his own, which he was pretty dismissive of, then immediately asked why people were on his wagon after the day was already over. overall EOD was probably NAI though, I think I tend to scumread people more who play weirdly and I think either way he just wasn't able to catch up quickly enough

- it's comparatively interesting how little momentum the rdr wagon got compared to donny and even bob. It would be fine if there was actual opposition, but I don't like that people just ignored it (in hindsight I am also guilty of this)

it just kinda was, in the moment, i feel like

i thought what was going to happen was me and blamp would jump on flum, the wagon would be ENORMOUS, and then people would jump off onto boat man (obviously risking bob, but it was a risk i was cool taking)

[rdrivera2005]

Well, RIP Flum. I don't like blaming dead townies, but the whole "town tell" thing was a mess.

I always try to look at motivation before classifying a thing as scummy or towny. I can't find either a scum motivation or a town motivation on what Flim did, laying about a town tell and answering by first double down and later making fun. I still fail to see what he was expecting from this. And that's why I was just so in doubt about voting him or not.

For all the people (wrongly)scumreading me saying I was defending Flum or trying to deflate his wagon, I want you now to present a reason to why I would do that as scum and attract all this attention to me. Specially Kgray, who keep shading me without any logic explanation.

[Bonatogether]

@Blamp you should extend your town council. I wouldn't be surprised if one of you were killed tonight (and I don't mean Bona).

I think you should invite your strongest townreads out of ghug kgray HR and rdr.

I approve of the idea btw.

I think this is a bad idea precisely because all of those players are strong as scum, so actively putting them on the council is a bad idea imo

also i won't be able to stand hr or ghug's ego if they're on it