![Razz :razz:](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
Not only that, but the judge speaks English and I've been told that some of the noises Trump made in office were occasionally identified as a form of English. Coincidence?!?
#21 Post by Octavious » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:58 pm
#22 Post by Randomizer » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:06 pm
The judge had everyone applaud a defense witness for being a veteran before he testified. No one recalled that ever happening at any trial.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:28 pmYou'd have to ask him. But it appears he was a Trump supporter (his phone rang a couple of times in court, and had a ringtone that was the same song Trump used to walk onto the stage for his rallies).
#23 Post by orathaic » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:30 pm
See there is an actual answer.Octavious wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:32 pmWhat about it is a non response? What more than that do you need? The right to be judged by a jury of your peers is central to democracy and human rights, and has been for as long as those concepts have existed. Every trial that is run free from outside influence and agendas is a victory for democracy. The fascist finds a useful scapegoat and hangs them. The civilised man accepts justice regardless of the inconvenience.orathaic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:41 pmBit of a non responce from you, which shouldn't really surprise me at this stage.To repeat the words of President Biden, who on occasion is still able to make sensible comments, the jury system works and we have to abide by it.
I asked a direct question, i shouldn't have expected a direct answer.
#24 Post by orathaic » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:31 pm
That something is legal does not make it morale. If the system of justice does not infact deliver justice, that is an indictment.bo_sox48 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:56 pmHow is someone being found not guilty of breaking a law that they did not break an indictment of the US judicial system?orathaic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:50 amYou can have contempt for the result without being facistic.
The fact that the system is 'working as designed' and this murderer who instigated violence has managed to get off on a self-defence argument is a terrible indictment of the US justice system. Not that trials by jury are a bad idea.
But Oct, are you actually saying this is a victory for democracy and demonstration of the good which trial by jury brings to the US? That seems to be implied from your comment above, but perhaps you can clarify.
#25 Post by orathaic » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:36 pm
And perhaps i should be clear. I am not calling for violence, i am predicting that a new civil rights movement focused on eliminating white supremacy will march, protest, and attempt to change the world for the better.
#26 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:51 am
Ha! Mate, the good ship "Ora saying something to change my mind" set sail long ago. It's become increasingly clear over the last few years that you have a world view that you believe in with a faith as unshakable as the most enthusiastic religious zealot or QAnon conspiracy nut. He was found not guilty by a jury of his peers who spent a great deal of time carefully examining the evidence because... he wasn't guilty. The trial was as open to public inspection as it is possible to be, the evidence presented was clear and refreshingly free of grey areas. US law is clear, as was what happened. Where is the failure of justice?
#27 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:22 pm
He illegally transported a deadly weapon he was not entitled to own in the first place, to a scene of ongoing public disorder, and shot and killed two people.
#28 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:23 pm
#29 Post by orathaic » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:26 pm
#30 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:31 pm
No he didn't. By all means provide evidence that he did, but my understanding is that the law restricting gun use to minors in that part of the USA does not include long barrel firearms. This is similar in some ways to UK firearms law that allows people aged 14 and above to use a shotgun and ammunition. The court case provided evidence that the gun was not transported in from other states. Even if he had transported an illegal weapon, the law of the land sees this as a misdemeanour with a maximum sentence of less than a year. But he did none of these things.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:22 pmHe illegally transported a deadly weapon he was not entitled to own in the first place, to a scene of ongoing public disorder
People who the jury determined, after reviewing in great detail the substantial evidence available, were attacking him.
This is a particularly obtuse statement given the very well known recent demonstration of this not being true.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:23 pm(Whereas if you're black the police are just allowed to kill you for no reason and that's fine too. What a fucking country.)
#31 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:41 pm
That is, I believe, the argument that the prosecution used. This argument lost.
#32 Post by Jamiet99uk » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:43 pm
I stand corrected on part of my statement and accept my error.Octavious wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:31 pmNo he didn't. By all means provide evidence that he did, but my understanding is that the law restricting gun use to minors in that part of the USA does not include long barrel firearms. This is similar in some ways to UK firearms law that allows people aged 14 and above to use a shotgun and ammunition. The court case provided evidence that the gun was not transported in from other states. Even if he had transported an illegal weapon, the law of the land sees this as a misdemeanour with a maximum sentence of less than a year. But he did none of these things.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:22 pmHe illegally transported a deadly weapon he was not entitled to own in the first place, to a scene of ongoing public disorder
People who the jury determined, after reviewing in great detail the substantial evidence available, were attacking him.
This is a particularly obtuse statement given the very well known recent demonstration of this not being true.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:23 pm(Whereas if you're black the police are just allowed to kill you for no reason and that's fine too. What a fucking country.)
#33 Post by flash2015 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:16 pm
#34 Post by Octavious » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:43 pm
Consider for a small moment, flash, the possibility that media coverage of the trial may differ wildly from country to country. Very little has been made about the judge's impartiality in the reports I have seen in the UK, other than a bit on the BBC that said various left wingers had raised it as an issue, butflash2015 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:16 pmOn one side we have Octavious who seems oblivious to the concerns about the judges impartiality. If Octavious had followed the case AT ALL, he would have heard about them even if he didn't agree with them. Especially given his ignorance, I would argue that claiming that people that had concerns about the judges impartially are equivalent to people that believe that the USA is run by Satanist cannibalistic pedophiles is quite unhinged.
#35 Post by orathaic » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:28 am
You are right about several things. I haven't followed the facts of the case, however that would include the death of the concerns about the judge, which as Oct mentioned was not reported anywhere i have seen.On the other side we have Jamiet and orathaic, who appear to have paid attention to the concerns about the judge, but don't appear to have followed the facts of the case...like the testimony of Gaige Grosskreutz who admitted that Kyle didn't shoot until he pointed his gun at him...
#36 Post by Octavious » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:13 pm
And here you have the problem with your argument. Your culture is alien to the defendant and the community where the incident took place. In the US guns are indeed considered to legitimate tools of self defence. In Western Europe to have a gun with the purpose of using it against another human is culturally abhorrent outside of the military or police. In the US, rightly or wrongly, the right to use one for self defence is in many places accepted.
#37 Post by orathaic » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:01 pm
You seem to he missing my point.So, in this particular location, what the defendant did was to bring a tool of self defence to a place where there was a significant risk to his person.
#38 Post by Octavious » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm
I am not missing your point. I am explaining to you that your point is wrong and that in the US the act of him carrying a gun is not evidence that he had decided to go somewhere and shoot people. It is only evidence that where he decided to go he considered himself to be at risk, and it turns out that this was an accurate assessment due to the fact that whilst there he was attacked.orathaic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:01 pmYou seem to he missing my point.So, in this particular location, what the defendant did was to bring a tool of self defence to a place where there was a significant risk to his person.
The point isn't that he had a gun, the point is he intention ally decided to go somewhere to use the gun to shoot people, and then shoot at people, and then claimed it was self-defence.
That is not what self-defence is about. And i love how you completely ignore the consequences for freedom of speech, political protest and a healthy democracy, despite claims that you care about these things.
#39 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:25 pm
Why do people always say this shit?orathaic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:31 pmThat something is legal does not make it morale. If the system of justice does not infact deliver justice, that is an indictment.bo_sox48 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:56 pmHow is someone being found not guilty of breaking a law that they did not break an indictment of the US judicial system?orathaic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:50 am
You can have contempt for the result without being facistic.
The fact that the system is 'working as designed' and this murderer who instigated violence has managed to get off on a self-defence argument is a terrible indictment of the US justice system. Not that trials by jury are a bad idea.
But Oct, are you actually saying this is a victory for democracy and demonstration of the good which trial by jury brings to the US? That seems to be implied from your comment above, but perhaps you can clarify.
#40 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:28 pm
It is a crime!Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:22 pmHe illegally transported a deadly weapon he was not entitled to own in the first place, to a scene of ongoing public disorder, and shot and killed two people.
The fact that apparently, in the eyes of American justice, he was a good innocent boy who did nothing wrong, proves what a cesspit America is.
I am glad I don't live in such a horrible country where violence is normalised and shooting other people dead isn't a crime.
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