M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Forum rules
This is an area for forum games. Please note that to support mafia games players cannot edit their own posts in this forum. Off Topic threads will be relocated or deleted. Issues taking place in forum games should be dealt with by respective game GMs and escalated to the moderators only if absolutely necessary.
This is an area for forum games. Please note that to support mafia games players cannot edit their own posts in this forum. Off Topic threads will be relocated or deleted. Issues taking place in forum games should be dealt with by respective game GMs and escalated to the moderators only if absolutely necessary.
-
- Posts: 7498
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 pm
- Location: possibly Britain
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
We’re giving mafia some degree of influence over the voting decisions to counter the breaking strategy outlined earlier in the thread. The exact mechanics are up in the air, and may make this specific scenario moot.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pmOho, what other changes?
That said, to directly answer your question, we would want play to continue in that scenario, so we’ll change the wording of the win condition to match. Good catch
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
How about making the ballot secret? No disclosing in thread how you voted wrt night actions.
- Chaqa
- Bronze Donator
- Posts: 14167
- Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
- Location: Allentown, PA, USA
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
We discussed this, but we also thought vote analysis and counterplay would be more fun, and are working on some gameplay/interactive solutions that we think will be alright.
This being the first time we've done something like this, we'll see how it all goes.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Okee dokee
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
-
- Posts: 7498
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 pm
- Location: possibly Britain
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Proposed fix:
Each Malicious Subroutine has a vote-cancelling ability, as follows:
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious C.O.P. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the C.O.P. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious D.O.C. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the D.O.C. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
We found that working out the precise mechanics of the massclaim-breaking strategy was rather difficult, and that there are many possible permutations of dividing the players into groups and casting votes to test their alignments. However, all of them depend on the certainty of town voting working precisely as intended. Without already knowing the alignments of all the players, it’s not possible to divide the players into groups in a way that guarantees the majority bloc will have more than a one-vote advantage over a minority bloc. Thus, as long as the mafia are able to change at least one vote, town can never be certain that any given outcome was not the result of mafia changing one decisive vote from Column A to Column B. And unlike similar situations, such as compulsive visitors with a tracker, or millers with a cop, town has no meaningful way to assess the probabilities of their distributions of town and mafia in their groups, and thus no way to assess the likelihood that a given outcome is the result of mafia tampering.
At the same time, we think this change only slightly increases the mafia’s power level in a more “normal” setting (e.g., when the town is casting votes individually without mass coordination, as we envisioned when we designed the setup initially), and that this doesn’t overly interfere with the core mechanic of the game “as intended”—it gives mafia slight additional counterplay, but nothing breaking on their end.
We think that solves the issue… but by all means continue trying to break it This setup is new territory for us, and we’d rather have issues exposed now, while they can be changed.
Each Malicious Subroutine has a vote-cancelling ability, as follows:
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious C.O.P. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the C.O.P. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious D.O.C. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the D.O.C. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
- One Malicious Subroutine is now the “Malicious V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine,” and has the additional ability to change one player’s vote to target a player with the V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine’s night action to the target of their choice.
We found that working out the precise mechanics of the massclaim-breaking strategy was rather difficult, and that there are many possible permutations of dividing the players into groups and casting votes to test their alignments. However, all of them depend on the certainty of town voting working precisely as intended. Without already knowing the alignments of all the players, it’s not possible to divide the players into groups in a way that guarantees the majority bloc will have more than a one-vote advantage over a minority bloc. Thus, as long as the mafia are able to change at least one vote, town can never be certain that any given outcome was not the result of mafia changing one decisive vote from Column A to Column B. And unlike similar situations, such as compulsive visitors with a tracker, or millers with a cop, town has no meaningful way to assess the probabilities of their distributions of town and mafia in their groups, and thus no way to assess the likelihood that a given outcome is the result of mafia tampering.
At the same time, we think this change only slightly increases the mafia’s power level in a more “normal” setting (e.g., when the town is casting votes individually without mass coordination, as we envisioned when we designed the setup initially), and that this doesn’t overly interfere with the core mechanic of the game “as intended”—it gives mafia slight additional counterplay, but nothing breaking on their end.
We think that solves the issue… but by all means continue trying to break it This setup is new territory for us, and we’d rather have issues exposed now, while they can be changed.
-
- Posts: 3445
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:50 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
I assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Snowy did not say he wished to sign up.BesharamSabi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:16 pmYall forgot to include snowy in the sign up comment btdubs.
He commented on the setup but did not ask to be put on the list.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
- Chaqa
- Bronze Donator
- Posts: 14167
- Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:33 pm
- Location: Allentown, PA, USA
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Correct on both counts.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:17 pmI assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
-
- Posts: 3445
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:50 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Jamiet he said it so right here
-
- Posts: 7498
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 pm
- Location: possibly Britain
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Both correct. The only information that the GMs will distribute regarding the Subroutines’ actions is as follows:Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:17 pmI assume:
1. individual players are not told if their night vote is changed,
2. the result of who voted for what outcome, at night, are not declared by the GM.
Are these assumptions correct?
1. The C.O.P. Subroutine learns the alignment of the target player chosen for them by the Collective.
2. The target player chosen by the Collective for the V.E.S.T. Subroutine’s night action learns that they received a vest. (Note that we are still deciding whether the V.E.S.T. Subroutine itself will learn this information. Initially we figured yes, but in light of potential breaking strategies, we may not disclose this info.)
3. All deaths are publicly announced, and players’ genuine roles and alignments are revealed on death. (Because there is a Framer and an unaware Backup in the game, GMs may issue disingenuous information as a result of interactions with these roles. However, all information on death will be genuine.) Thus, players may infer from multiple deaths that one such death resulted from use of the V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. Subroutine’s night action. In the event of multiple deaths, the GMs will not announce which death resulted from mafia actions and which death resulted from V.I.G.I.L.A.N.T.E. actions. Additionally, players who are targeted for termination, but saved by vests, do not learn that they were targeted.
-
- Gold Donator
- Posts: 7602
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:17 pm
- Location: Porto Alegre, Brasil
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
-
- Posts: 2080
- Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:24 pm
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
Well spotted!!BesharamSabi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:43 pmJamiet he said it so right here
Just a moment, I will add Snowy!
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
- Jamiet99uk
- Posts: 32404
- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
- Location: Durham, UK
- Contact:
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
TheFlyingBoat wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:15 pmSIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7. Service Node Output World-wide Yellow protocol(Snowy)
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.
2.
3.
The only person you're truly competing against, Wesley, is yourself.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
SIGNUPS
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.Tremendously Engineered Machinery Abiding Societal Expectations Knowingly 2.2 (Temasek22)
2.
3.
GMs
-1. Chaqa
0. President Eden
Players
1. Build Os Number Alpha (Bona)
2. Generic Human Unit Gronk (Ghug)
3. Java-Augmented Machine-Integrated Engine (Jamie)
4. Diskette-Accessible Memory Object (Damo)
5. Rapid Data Retriever Intelligence version A.2.0.05 (rdrivera2005)
6. BASIC Output Access To Mainframe and Neuralinked entities (Boatman/TheFlyingBoat)
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
Substitutes
1.Tremendously Engineered Machinery Abiding Societal Expectations Knowingly 2.2 (Temasek22)
2.
3.
Re: M71: Consensus Mafia [signups]
das racist7. Service Node Output World-wide Yellow protocol(Snowy)
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: TheMadMonarch