M1019 – Once Upon A Time… [GAME THREAD] [HIDDEN]

[BesharamSabi]

Mr. TFB any reason why you jumped so quickly on my wagon when damo said to do so even tho you were giving me town reads?

I didn't jump on because Damo said so. I jumped on because it was a quick forming wagon that I thought would pressure you to do reactive things which is a great way to get info and form leans. Truth be told if you were anyone else and you did what you did I would leading a wagon on you incredibly hard given your reaction. DL has convinced me that reaction from you under such a test is NAI, because under any pressure, regardless of alignment, you will behave incredibly defensively. which is probably a fair assessment. So tl;dr I made a mistake and probably wasted my time.

The wagon at the time you voted for me was just you and Damo and durga. Hardly a leading wagon but go off king.

[BesharamSabi]

Is Bona ever going to do any gming or is poor Eden having to do everything. Justice for Eden when

[TheFlyingBoat]

Just how is me saying we shouldn't discount doom make her one of my stronger scum reads?

I'll need to check again, but I thought I remembered seeing you go after Doom a fair a bit, support Sabi in her arguments, and even cast a vote for her, but I could be misremembering, let me check.

Was that not d2 when Sabi actually made the case....?

Okay I need you to answer me: did/do you legitimately think doom was on the chopping block today

Oops skipped the top question and only answered the bottom question. Yes, your vote was cast D2. Your heaviest support was also D2. But was there some hint that your view of Doom being scum had weakened in some heavily notable fashion? I don't think I saw any.

[TheFlyingBoat]

Mr. TFB any reason why you jumped so quickly on my wagon when damo said to do so even tho you were giving me town reads?

I didn't jump on because Damo said so. I jumped on because it was a quick forming wagon that I thought would pressure you to do reactive things which is a great way to get info and form leans. Truth be told if you were anyone else and you did what you did I would leading a wagon on you incredibly hard given your reaction. DL has convinced me that reaction from you under such a test is NAI, because under any pressure, regardless of alignment, you will behave incredibly defensively. which is probably a fair assessment. So tl;dr I made a mistake and probably wasted my time.

The wagon at the time you voted for me was just you and Damo and durga. Hardly a leading wagon but go off king.

Yeah that's 3 of 9 and it was the leading wagon at the time. You proceeded to vote for the counterwagon with 26 hours left, not because you had any scum lean on them, but just because you didn't want to be in first. I don't think I am crazy to perceive that as a non-townie response in 99% of scenarios. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt because that's your play style as DL pointed out. Chill.

[President Eden]

DAY 3 VOTE COUNT THE SECOND: MY SON IS TOO BUSY DOING SCHOOLWORK TO GM, PROBABLY EDITION

Jamiet99uk (4): Durga, DeathLlama8, damo666, TheFlyingBoat
TheFlyingBoat (1): Jamiet99uk
rdrivera2005 (1): Doom427
BunnyGo (1): rdrivera2005
Doom427 (1): BesharamSabi

No Valid Vote Cast: BunnyGo

Currently Jamiet99uk is getting schooled at the end of Day 3 in approximately 22h43m.

BunnyGo has not yet met minimum participation requirements and will be replaced at the end of Day 3 if this isn’t rectified.

[Doom427]

This is some interesting info I'm gleaming out of TFB's posts, though I'm not sure yet what to read from it.

Agreeing with Durga that it would make sense for Scum to make their big analysis to be townreads instead of scum hunting.

[BesharamSabi]

DAY 3 VOTE COUNT THE SECOND: MY SON IS TOO BUSY DOING SCHOOLWORK TO GM, PROBABLY EDITION

Jamiet99uk (4): Durga, DeathLlama8, damo666, TheFlyingBoat
TheFlyingBoat (1): Jamiet99uk
rdrivera2005 (1): Doom427
BunnyGo (1): rdrivera2005
Doom427 (1): BesharamSabi

No Valid Vote Cast: BunnyGo

Currently Jamiet99uk is getting schooled at the end of Day 3 in approximately 22h43m.

BunnyGo has not yet met minimum participation requirements and will be replaced at the end of Day 3 if this isn’t rectified.

Eden time to leave Bona at a fire station.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm not caught up, I've been doing the pub quiz. Is there a specific reason why I'm the main wagon?

[DeathLlama8]

no comment on behavior - I agree that it's unfair to disincentivize him being nice- - but he had 45 posts yesterday, mostly before damo's reveal, without really actively scumhunting, and I don't have anything to townread him off of. The kakarroto townread is weird but probably something kaka would've felt more comfortable doing with a N0 chat, and also something that was expressed before the game.

here's my vote fwiw. not that strong of a read though

[Jamiet99uk]

was the sabi wagon a reaction test? bc if so you guys picked the only person who would react that defensively regardless of their actual alignment

Yeah at first I thought I was getting scummier vibes from their defense of themselves going onto RDR purely because they saw him as the largest counterwagon 26 hours before EoD instead of pushing any wagon they actually liked, but that being said you're probably right that trying to force a reaction test on Sabi was kinda dumb given we're going to get an ultra defensive reaction and scummy-ish reaction even if they are town.

##vote jamie

How the fuck does a paragraph about the Sabi wagon justify a vote on me when I was never on the Sabi wagon?

Explain your vote properly ffs.

[Jamiet99uk]

##vote Jamie

Why are you voting for me and what is it that you expect me to say?

[DeathLlama8]

I agree - and I love pleasant Jamie - I just think it's a little strange he totally ignored the vote.

Tbh in this setup, in the current game state, votes on me are wrong, but not illogical. I accept that I am in a reasonable POE who are nowhere near clear as town, and we have one living townclear and another person who is town-clear-able, and I've already pretty much admitted that that isn't me.

Do you still feel this way now that you're getting tangible pressure, or do you think the wagon on you might have scum on it?

[TheFlyingBoat]

was the sabi wagon a reaction test? bc if so you guys picked the only person who would react that defensively regardless of their actual alignment

Yeah at first I thought I was getting scummier vibes from their defense of themselves going onto RDR purely because they saw him as the largest counterwagon 26 hours before EoD instead of pushing any wagon they actually liked, but that being said you're probably right that trying to force a reaction test on Sabi was kinda dumb given we're going to get an ultra defensive reaction and scummy-ish reaction even if they are town.

##vote jamie

How the fuck does a paragraph about the Sabi wagon justify a vote on me when I was never on the Sabi wagon?

Explain your vote properly ffs.

That wasn't a justification of it. The justification of it is that you haven't done anything that strikes me as incredibly townie this game.

I have 3 people I like as town a lot (Damo, DL, and Doom).

I have one person who I thought gave off town vibes of trying earlier, then gave off some scum vibes, but DL has talked me down into just chalking up those scum vibes as just Sabi being Sabi.

I have Durga who I used to have lower on my town scale, but who I have softened on recently after rereading some of their stuff (I still disagree with their mech thoughts, tunneling, and read on doom, but my negative feelings towards them for not trying seems much more unfair after wading through the hundreds of short posts for their longer ones that they did post).

I have RDR who seemed like he was going in the right direction in his analysis, seemed to be thinking through mech rules in a townie way, but still has yet to do anything I wouldn't believe a scum!rdr wouldn't be capable of, as those pro-town plays could definitely be done by him.

That leaves me with you and bunny. I personally prefer the DK to come from one of you two. My issue with bunny is that his posts have gotten significantly harder to follow the internal logic of the longer he has been in this game. One explanation is that he played the early game as town and was put into a mafia slot, which prompted and obvious change in thought process. The other is that just like rest of us he is making a mistake.

I have him below you on my list of town (down is worse) so if a wagon materialized on bunny I would probably go for it over you depending on what happens between down and then. That being said you have done fewer townie things than the others besides bunny in my recent recollection, even independent of the mean jamie thing.

Things I don't like post-read are your PoE pool with Bona in it. While I am willing to forgive that from a newbie (thought still agreed with Sabi that it was odd that Doom did that too) I am far less willing to forgive it from you. I didn't like that some of your biggest posts seem to be dedicated to obvious play by play summaries and not either trying to figure out which people are more likely to be town (I have Durga as a townread from you as genuinely trying to ask questions and DL for the same reasons as the others, though I believe you removed him after being pressed on why you think DL is less likely to bus than Doom by ghug and damo as obv town given what happened with Kak, but beyond that not much) and I don't have much from you in terms of scum reads beyond you calling me kinda sketchy without much explanation there either.

With you being a wagon and one I am happy to be on, I am happy to park my vote here until I see reason to believe killing you isn't out best bet or that someone is obv scum. If I got some well-explained reads, perhaps I'd consider going over to the Bunny.

[DeathLlama8]

That leaves me with you and bunny. I personally prefer the DK to come from one of you two. My issue with bunny is that his posts have gotten significantly harder to follow the internal logic of the longer he has been in this game. One explanation is that he played the early game as town and was put into a mafia slot, which prompted and obvious change in thought process. The other is that just like rest of us he is making a mistake.

can you point to (or link if you've already done this) specific posts from Bunny that ping you about this? Given that the vote is 4-1-1-1-1 right now and you like bunny as a potential DK, it feels like drilling down into your scumread on Bunny might be worthwhile.

[rdrivera2005]

This is some interesting info I'm gleaming out of TFB's posts, though I'm not sure yet what to read from it.

Agreeing with Durga that it would make sense for Scum to make their big analysis to be townreads instead of scum hunting.

I am not sure if I totally agree with Durga. Maybe for new scum. There are a lot of people that just tunnel hard on town as scum as a way to appear hunting and don't need to adapt reads. Bozo is one of them and I have used this tactic as scum too (in a time when people insisted I was a serial busser) and HR did it pretty well more then once.

[rdrivera2005]

I'm not caught up, I've been doing the pub quiz. Is there a specific reason why I'm the main wagon?

Probably because you didn't caught up and is at a pub.

[Durga]

This is some interesting info I'm gleaming out of TFB's posts, though I'm not sure yet what to read from it.

Agreeing with Durga that it would make sense for Scum to make their big analysis to be townreads instead of scum hunting.

I am not sure if I totally agree with Durga. Maybe for new scum. There are a lot of people that just tunnel hard on town as scum as a way to appear hunting and don't need to adapt reads. Bozo is one of them and I have used this tactic as scum too (in a time when people insisted I was a serial busser) and HR did it pretty well more then once.

Well, tbf I said it's easier for a lot of scum to do that not just that everyone did that. I know personally I find it easier to defend people over scum reading them.

[DeathLlama8]

This is some interesting info I'm gleaming out of TFB's posts, though I'm not sure yet what to read from it.

Agreeing with Durga that it would make sense for Scum to make their big analysis to be townreads instead of scum hunting.

I am not sure if I totally agree with Durga. Maybe for new scum. There are a lot of people that just tunnel hard on town as scum as a way to appear hunting and don't need to adapt reads. Bozo is one of them and I have used this tactic as scum too (in a time when people insisted I was a serial busser) and HR did it pretty well more then once.

also this is less helpful of a heuristic than I think it normally would be since everyone’s been towncoring

[TheFlyingBoat]

That leaves me with you and bunny. I personally prefer the DK to come from one of you two. My issue with bunny is that his posts have gotten significantly harder to follow the internal logic of the longer he has been in this game. One explanation is that he played the early game as town and was put into a mafia slot, which prompted and obvious change in thought process. The other is that just like rest of us he is making a mistake.

can you point to (or link if you've already done this) specific posts from Bunny that ping you about this? Given that the vote is 4-1-1-1-1 right now and you like bunny as a potential DK, it feels like drilling down into your scumread on Bunny might be worthwhile.

Sure, let me pull up the post numbers, but tbh more than it being any one post it was a series of them where Bunny went from reading the thread with an open-ish mind and looking at everyone, which seems like a read list someone one comes up with while following the game (the fact that he has ghug as his most scummy besides kaka is NAI to me and I don't read into that too strongly). If I am scum!bunny I would post this read list and try to keep acting with this thought process as at least for the early part of that day it should be relatively easy to fake. He then comes around and posts a great point about scum should be fake claiming lost sibling as it is the easiest role to safely fake claim by far, which I think is something a neutral bunny watching the game would see.

As we enter the EoD we see Bunny start to lose some of this ability to keep the whole game in sight and begins to tunnel down on ghug for some really inane things which is possible for town!bunny to do, but it marks a step away from the more open style that precedes it. Even after Damo's claim Bunny lasers in on ghug and starts to lay into him for reasons that are harder to follow than bunny's initial comments were.

1301, 1315 marked the descent. 1520 was the big one. At this point he is ghoing after ghug in N2 for not having any town reads which doesn't make sense as ghug did start to build up a town core over the course of D2. Had he backed off of that being an issue I would have understood it as ghug wasn't as forthcoming with reads as perhaps one would have liked very early in the turn from what I remember in the earlier reread. But by the end he had a PoE of 4 and a set of town reads. That looks to me like a mafia who has gotten overexcited by their first night of the game who has forgotten/lost track of the thread and is focused on other things.

[Durga]

guys i think eden GMslipped that snowy and ghug are the same alignment

shit eden ruined the game y'all