M70 - THE BASKIN-ROBBINS CONSPIRACY [HIDDEN]

[lfischl]

Worcej's List of "Useless Observations" - Version 1.0

People who are creating constructive content:

1. Tom Bomb (the 'we should go for good scum players' idea)
2. Doom427 (The kill to no-kill move with explanation on his/her/their reasoning)
3. bozotheclown (No daykill proposal with reasoning and continued discussion)
4. Fluminator (the observations of players. This can be borderline a commentator, but a couple of the reads are more in-depth - ie: the Durga observation)
5. President Eden (his analysis on no killing, the analysis on the meta of players regarding said no kill, his comparison of this game to Among Us versus normal mafia - which I strongly agree with btw - and the "take a shot if it's good, but hold if it's not" concept and finally his reads sprinkled in posts)
6. snowy801 (I should've made a 'asks a bunch of questions at people' group, but I didn't. Some observations sprinkled in and there, but the content I see is forcing people to expand on their statements)
7. Vecna (a lot of comments, almost a commentator until his reads list came out and has unique depth into the comments. Also provides his own insight into other reads instead of just agreeing)

People who are responding or critiquing without their own ideas - AKA: the commentators

1. BunnyGo (Every post is a reply to someone else. Asking questions, but not starting a discussion)
2. Damo666 (More commentator on others than unique ideas - the clam idea being the unique one. His reads list wasn't anything unique and his take on me wasn't original)
3. Durga (efforts to shut down the no-kill conversation and her opinion appearing as counter to others dominated much of her posting, but also has some unique opinions. I don't see nearly as much effort in said unique opinions, so she's a commentator for now)
4. Chaqa (comments and trolling. To compare to similar players, he's being more constructive than TFB's efforts and that's enough to create a distinction between the two. No major unique idea, piggy-backing off Eden's analysis more than anything)
5. kgray (similar to snowy801, but definitely not creating content. The questions I am seeing are not forcing people to expand further and create content - the questions either move the conversation towards something else or disagreeing with someones comments and invalidates their observations)
6. Sabi (Easily a borderline non-value adder, which was my first result upon examination, but upon re-looking I see a shared style/approach to how damo posts, so I am not as critical. I see some opinions sprinkled in, but nothing is unique and new to me to consider it constructive)
7. Ghug (high volume, responds to the thread conversations - ie: daykill or not - with his own opinions, and sprinkles in a lot of his usual 'fluff' when playing with certain players. There is enough here to get value as opposed to the low value posters)

The non-value adders - AKA: The BB's

1. Rdr (commenting with piggy-backs and just saying he's behind. Could move up one, but with 6 posts I'm putting him here)
2. lfischl (nothing of value, borderline lurking)
3. TheFlyingBoat (definitely some value opinions in here that would justify a commentator slot, but since I explicitly have a BB category I have to actually put the most BB-esque person in said group. Pretty much trolling with some good opinions sprinkled in to make them tolerable)
4. Bonatogether (High volume, short comments that are more noise than comments or constructive game movement. I'd move him up a slot to commentator if I found anything valuable in what he is saying about the game, but it isn't really there)

Lurkers

1. jasnah
2. Jamiet99uk

Bro I was asleep.

[snowy801]

What is massiclaim

It's a concept where literally everyone claims their roles simultaneously (usually rather early) so we can get all the claim/counterclaim business sorted asap

Aka playstyle for cowards

Ahhh OK. What are the other styles?

The one where you play the game as was intended, and sort out town and scum with a mixture of reads and mechanics as they are revealed

[lfischl]

im actually surprised the usual suspects havent talked about a massclaim yet.

It might be boring as fuck (and im not advocating it whatsoever), but this is actually the very best type of setup to massclaim, to completely take away the possibility for mafia to fakeclaim down the line and get a guaranteed victory by lucking out on killing a PR and then claiming it later, along with some false results. It takes away the horrendous scenario where we have a cop vs cop claimfiesta, along with results, and we have no idea of knowing which results are real and which are fake. It takes away the EoD fakeclaim-save on a scum thats about to get killed. And it reduces every VT's odds of finding scum to 4/15.

Having said all that, fuck you, we aint doing it, because boring and all. But its sort of telling that certain people have not even thought of this line of logic, and done their usual thing of superior reasoning and poor convincing.

Lol, it's also a terrible idea

I don't think this is a good idea

[ghug]

im actually surprised the usual suspects havent talked about a massclaim yet.

It might be boring as fuck (and im not advocating it whatsoever), but this is actually the very best type of setup to massclaim, to completely take away the possibility for mafia to fakeclaim down the line and get a guaranteed victory by lucking out on killing a PR and then claiming it later, along with some false results. It takes away the horrendous scenario where we have a cop vs cop claimfiesta, along with results, and we have no idea of knowing which results are real and which are fake. It takes away the EoD fakeclaim-save on a scum thats about to get killed. And it reduces every VT's odds of finding scum to 4/15.

Having said all that, fuck you, we aint doing it, because boring and all. But its sort of telling that certain people have not even thought of this line of logic, and done their usual thing of superior reasoning and poor convincing.

I'm more shocked that everyone is trying to approach this game with the same logic they utilize in our standard games.

Locking this in now: this game is going to boil down to a popularity contest and town is going to lose.

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

[snowy801]

Bro I was asleep.

I'm not really sure how well this argument holds water given the two games I've seen of you.

Then again, I think you were scum both those games

[damo666]

Lol, it's also a terrible idea

What is massiclaim

It's a concept where literally everyone claims their roles simultaneously (usually rather early) so we can get all the claim/counterclaim business sorted asap

Aka playstyle for cowards

But has more merit in this 'no reveal' scenario than a standard game.

For this game I favour a staggered time appropriate PR only claim. VTs should not declare.

[lfischl]

Bro I was asleep.

I'm not really sure how well this argument holds water given the two games I've seen of you.

Then again, I think you were scum both those games

I was scum in the mini-game and town in the other I think?

[snowy801]

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'm confused. I think this setup is quite easy, though I haven't really revisited the balance since I learned of the factional roleblock

I think you guys are (perhaps rightly) scared of the no flip, but having played no flip f2f games all my life I'm telling you it's not so hard

[worcej]

im actually surprised the usual suspects havent talked about a massclaim yet.

It might be boring as fuck (and im not advocating it whatsoever), but this is actually the very best type of setup to massclaim, to completely take away the possibility for mafia to fakeclaim down the line and get a guaranteed victory by lucking out on killing a PR and then claiming it later, along with some false results. It takes away the horrendous scenario where we have a cop vs cop claimfiesta, along with results, and we have no idea of knowing which results are real and which are fake. It takes away the EoD fakeclaim-save on a scum thats about to get killed. And it reduces every VT's odds of finding scum to 4/15.

Having said all that, fuck you, we aint doing it, because boring and all. But its sort of telling that certain people have not even thought of this line of logic, and done their usual thing of superior reasoning and poor convincing.

I'm more shocked that everyone is trying to approach this game with the same logic they utilize in our standard games.

Locking this in now: this game is going to boil down to a popularity contest and town is going to lose.

Who's the popular ones here?

I think we'll not see a kgray, Durga, Tom Bomb, Fluminator, Vecna, or bozo wagon before D4 this game.

I think you'll see the wagons of Chaqa, Eden, Jamie, Bona, Damo, and myself pushed early.

[lfischl]

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'm confused. I think this setup is quite easy, though I haven't really revisited the balance since I learned of the factional roleblock

I think you guys are (perhaps rightly) scared of the no flip, but having played no flip f2f games all my life I'm telling you it's not so hard

But we don't know if we kill scum, that's the problem. We have no clue whether we are winning or getting destroyed

[Durga]

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'm confused. I think this setup is quite easy, though I haven't really revisited the balance since I learned of the factional roleblock

I think you guys are (perhaps rightly) scared of the no flip, but having played no flip f2f games all my life I'm telling you it's not so hard

Thank god we have snowy to guide us. Unfortunately snowy also doesn't understand how terrible webdip town tends to be *with* reveals let alone without. You better solve the game before you die snowy.

[snowy801]

What is massiclaim

It's a concept where literally everyone claims their roles simultaneously (usually rather early) so we can get all the claim/counterclaim business sorted asap

Aka playstyle for cowards

But has more merit in this 'no reveal' scenario than a standard game.

For this game I favour a staggered time appropriate PR only claim. VTs should not declare.

I read your post but you already lost me where the doc claims 2nd
Staggered reveals are fine but should come about naturally more or less. Each day and night we'll have the opportunity to evaluate whether a claim would be appropriate

[ghug]

The point is that you did not respond with suspicion, but with an attempt to prove my inaccuracy.

I said you're bad at reading me.

The last two games, at minimum, support that.

Last game you were quite literally death tunneling on a ghug/Chaqa scumteam, when both of us were town.

That happened after you two tried to flash wagon me while I was absent though during EoD3. This part you're mentioning happened only during Night 3, the night I got killed.

Also, "the last 2 games prove that" is sort of an odd statement, since before last game, you have to go pretty pretty far back for us both to have been town.

You were scummy af and everyone else was trying to kill obvtown worcej.

[BunnyGo]

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'm confused. I think this setup is quite easy, though I haven't really revisited the balance since I learned of the factional roleblock

I think you guys are (perhaps rightly) scared of the no flip, but having played no flip f2f games all my life I'm telling you it's not so hard

I've played lots of f2f, but never no flip. Do you not get tells?

[worcej]

im actually surprised the usual suspects havent talked about a massclaim yet.

It might be boring as fuck (and im not advocating it whatsoever), but this is actually the very best type of setup to massclaim, to completely take away the possibility for mafia to fakeclaim down the line and get a guaranteed victory by lucking out on killing a PR and then claiming it later, along with some false results. It takes away the horrendous scenario where we have a cop vs cop claimfiesta, along with results, and we have no idea of knowing which results are real and which are fake. It takes away the EoD fakeclaim-save on a scum thats about to get killed. And it reduces every VT's odds of finding scum to 4/15.

Having said all that, fuck you, we aint doing it, because boring and all. But its sort of telling that certain people have not even thought of this line of logic, and done their usual thing of superior reasoning and poor convincing.

I'm more shocked that everyone is trying to approach this game with the same logic they utilize in our standard games.

Locking this in now: this game is going to boil down to a popularity contest and town is going to lose.

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'll probably only remind you of it out of spite because of these posts from you lol.

FWIW - I've given up on trying to make others look at the game differently - as has been commented multiple times, we're a collective of impressively large egos (myself included)

[ghug]

I feel like it's a little weird BunnyGo has totally ignored me saying he could be scum at least two times and then voting him

Yeah ok ##VOTE Bunny ##END just for him

[worcej]

Again, you don't get to wave this in our faces when town inevitably loses, because everyone thinks we will.

I'm confused. I think this setup is quite easy, though I haven't really revisited the balance since I learned of the factional roleblock

I think you guys are (perhaps rightly) scared of the no flip, but having played no flip f2f games all my life I'm telling you it's not so hard

Thank god we have snowy to guide us. Unfortunately snowy also doesn't understand how terrible webdip town tends to be *with* reveals let alone without. You better solve the game before you die snowy.

What would your suggestion be to improve the town play here?

[ghug]

@Bunny do you have any reads?

I have some thoughts:

1) I thought it was weird your response to my first post both was a false accusation about me; wasn't addressed at me; seemed to be trying to rile me; but then completely dropped it. That was unusual. Instead you then got worcej riled up. I'm not used to seeing you (kgray) be this antagonistic without being scum or attacked, and I'm not used to seeing you drop something when you decide to say something. Those things combined to make me wary of your slot.

2) damo is PR hunting. This is bad. But also damo-esque town. When scum he keeps his PR hunting in the QT.

3) I still like Flum. No clue about alignment.

4) Getting towny vibes from Vecna. There's playfulness, but effort and thought. He's good at faking all this, but it's a good start.

5) No real thoughts on the players who are new to me (snow, BeSharam, Doom, maybe another?) I think they've all had reasonable beginnings for players (I realize at least 2 of them are not new, just new to me).

6) Pres Eden has made some solid posts; good town start.

7) worcej I usually have an easier time reading. His first wall post seemed towny to me. But the tilt he went on quickly I'm less sure of.

I've wrongly townread damo for PR hunting in public before.

[Vecna]

Another random thought; I dont think Ghug and Chaqa have sniffed eachother at all yet. I dont think Ghug has sniffed me at all yet.

Probably a cat person after all.

I specifically discussed your odor already

Yeah, youre being antagonistic instead of cooperative

[ghug]

My ghugdar hasn't been properly tuned in quite yet, which concerns me.

Can the Miller claim? We can improve our odds from 4/21 to 4/20 and I really like that number for some reason.

Maybe Jamie is the miller. In which case I doubt he claims.

Can you explain why you want the Miller claiming ASAP rather than during EOD if they're a possible wagon?

Well, let's say that I was the miller. I'm not, but if I were, I would have claimed already and we would have had a lot of brainpower and posts that could have been devoted elsewhere.

My take is that the Miller is either:
1. Someone who hasn't posted yet (Jamie) or in awhile and doesn't know they should think about claiming
2. A new player unsure what to do
3. Someone whose pride won't allow them to claim (ghug, maybe someone like Vecna or Durga) because they think they can do more good by surviving til endgame

This is PR hunting too...

Miller shouldn't claim.