Mini Mafia 1018 - Race with the Devil [hidden]

[celaph]

so in that case nobody would be the busser?
or you dont really think anyone was bussing?

@bob, do you think anyone was bussing?

if anyone on the wagon was bussing it was you
and i dont think thats entirely unlikely

... ignoring me as I obviously wasn't the one campaigning for lfischl to die and didn't believe in my vote.

Given your response I take it that's it's fair to assume that you think no scum are getting town credit for lfischl's death.

[celaph]

[Rdr's post about Kak's inconsistency]

Town points to Rdr

[celaph]

Side note: I do find it rather notable that Bona was absent for the 80 minutes before EoD and then appeared rather quickly after the results were shared.

NAI imo - players usually (unless obscure time zone issues) check in on phase changes and make themselves available around that time.

Fair counterargument. Do you have an opinion on the fact that he didn't just check in, but also participated for the next 15 minutes? It bothers me a bit, but I still think your explanation covers it plenty.

[celaph]

weird post
why point this out?
why do an actual analysis on this chain of posts?

Because I'm not sold on Bona's argument that lfischl is impossible to read. And it's not just because he posts so little. He has had a couple town games with many more posts where he still ends up getting killed quite quickly. I had a theory about his behavior being indicative of a normal, town, lfischl. Obviously I was wrong.

Statements that someone is 'impossible' to read are usually fake in my experience.

+1

[celaph]

Side note: I do find it rather notable that Bona was absent for the 80 minutes before EoD and then appeared rather quickly after the results were shared.

OMGUS is a good look on celaph

@Bona, look at my emoji use!!!

[BobMcBob]

@bob, do you think anyone was bussing?

if anyone on the wagon was bussing it was you
and i dont think thats entirely unlikely

... ignoring me as I obviously wasn't the one campaigning for lfischl to die and didn't believe in my vote.

Given your response I take it that's it's fair to assume that you think no scum are getting town credit for lfischl's death.

at this point all that really says is i doubt maniac was bussing, but yes, thats correct

[Vecna]

I can't be arsed with this.

I have tried to be polite and Worcej and Ghug are determined to tunnel me for no good reason.

Fuck off.

##Vote Jamie
##End

The amount of scrutiny on jamiet before this post is actually a lot less than I had anticipated when seeing it before.

hmm

[celaph]

I'm a little doubtful having actually looked over the wagons. I kinda think you're all town, but odds are I'm wrong on at least one. Best bet is you.

what are your thoughts on celaph?
too scummy to be scum?

i dont believe town!celaph does that

I presume you're talking about my vote, but regardless, you're wrong. Do you want to elaborate why I wouldn't do that?

[celaph]

they were tepid and uninteresting defenses

You are right that it was more hedging that lfischl playing similarly to past games was TI than anything else. I'm still surprised you put more emphasis on the vote than my history of messages that make my lack of interest in the vote obvious.

messages can say whatever the fuck you want

with votes you have to act in the interest of your team

Actually a decent point.

[Vecna]

No it's not.

I think it shows a disconnect. The post responded to fox' death was very over the top and dramatic.

You probably just arent realizing it was quite the notable post because youre looking through "kaka=town and thus probably isnt saying scummy shit"-lenzes.

Assuming you are scum and he is town obviously. Which is fully what im expecting to be the case.

Nah, the "or something like that" makes the drama tongue in cheek.

fair rebuttal

[Kakarroto]

So, I've been thinking (no, please, sit down again, no need to flee the building). Why would mafia choose to nk fox?

1) He is a very good player and mafia is afraid of him.
2) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is mafia and they want to eliminate people voting for that person.
3) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is town and they want to miskill someone by obfuscating that.
4) Mafia read his behaviour as PR and prioritised him over others.
5) Mafia threw a coin or dice and it landed fox.
6) Mafia are a bunch of animal/furry hater.
7) More than one of the above. (please with further information)
8) Other than any of the above. (please with further information)
9) Kak you should stop you know exactly why we did it.

Other than that, I would also like to hear your ideas of why mafia would choose fox over yourself.

[rdrivera2005]

I'd also encourage anyone inclined to vote for me to look at the EoD voting assuming that I'm lfischl's teammate and not Jamie's and tell me if it makes any sense.

I did. I see you asking Fox for a flesh-eating and then voting worcej instead of lfischl. What am I missing?

[Vecna]

yeah, id mirror rdrivera for your thought why that voting/behavior exonerates you.

[rdrivera2005]

So, I've been thinking (no, please, sit down again, no need to flee the building). Why would mafia choose to nk fox?

1) He is a very good player and mafia is afraid of him.
2) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is mafia and they want to eliminate people voting for that person.
3) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is town and they want to miskill someone by obfuscating that.
4) Mafia read his behaviour as PR and prioritised him over others.
5) Mafia threw a coin or dice and it landed fox.
6) Mafia are a bunch of animal/furry hater.
7) More than one of the above. (please with further information)
8) Other than any of the above. (please with further information)
9) Kak you should stop you know exactly why we did it.

Other than that, I would also like to hear your ideas of why mafia would choose fox over yourself.

On your list I would say 1 and 4 are possible. I would add he was the biggest townread around with how flischl wagon evolved (he and Maniac, maybe).

I don't remember scummy killing someone because of reads on N1.

[BobMcBob]

I'd also encourage anyone inclined to vote for me to look at the EoD voting assuming that I'm lfischl's teammate and not Jamie's and tell me if it makes any sense.

I did. I see you asking Fox for a flesh-eating and then voting worcej instead of lfischl. What am I missing?

lol this is rather accurate

[Kakarroto]

Since this is a mini mafia with less nights and days to play, would you say "because of reads on N1" is on the same level like normal or somewhat different? Could that be enough to consider another approach?

[BobMcBob]

So, I've been thinking (no, please, sit down again, no need to flee the building). Why would mafia choose to nk fox?

1) He is a very good player and mafia is afraid of him.
2) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is mafia and they want to eliminate people voting for that person.
3) He had someone in his reads/pushes that is town and they want to miskill someone by obfuscating that.
4) Mafia read his behaviour as PR and prioritised him over others.
5) Mafia threw a coin or dice and it landed fox.
6) Mafia are a bunch of animal/furry hater.
7) More than one of the above. (please with further information)
8) Other than any of the above. (please with further information)
9) Kak you should stop you know exactly why we did it.

Other than that, I would also like to hear your ideas of why mafia would choose fox over yourself.

id say 1 and/or 4 are most likely
2 is also reasonable
or i suppose 9 if youre the mafia which i currently doubt

[celaph]

On assumption celaph is town, he doesn't deserve anything for his vote. This is unverifiable immediately, so we must keep it in mind but not use it too much.

However, breaking the tie in this situation often will get the breaker towncred. Scum!celaph most likely knows this and therefore, we must consider scum!celaph voting scum!lfischl as for towncredit. If this were to be the case, then celaph would have fooled us. This is bad, and deserves caution. Therefore, this vote must be considered not-town.

Taking these two together (nothing, and not-town), on balance that was a not-town vote, which, given usual patterns of celaph's behavior, is scummy.

This post has a number of glaring flaws.
1. Looking at it for whether I deserve credit is a dumb way to look at it, I obviously don't.
2. The fact that you can't verify that I'm town doesn't give you blanket cover to avoid analyzing the situation.
Why don't you think that town celaph would vote like I did? As I mentioned earlier, I don't care how strongly incentivized scum would have been to vote there if town would have also voted there.
3. The alignment of a player has no relevance on whether or not their action was scummy or towny. Just because a town does something doesn't make that action towny and not all actions by scum are scummy.
You've discussed why scum are incentivized to vote there, but that doesn't mean that voting anti-town.
4. You can't just take "averages" of deserved credit, even if you derived it correctly, and use that to dictate how you act.

0) Your post has the glaring flaw of defending an incorrect position

1) All votes deserve some credit, one way or the other.

2) I did?

3) "You've discussed why scum are incentivized to vote there, but that doesn't mean that voting anti-town." Scum votes are presumably anti-town (or pro-scum) by definition?

4) But I am

I'm feeling petty so let's do this.
0) You can make all the assertions you want, that doesn't make them right.

1) Why must credit be binary scumy/towny as you've described it? It seems obvious to me that if someone should always do X regardless of alignment then them doing X is NAI and the only credit it earns is of them not being stupid.

2) Yes, you avoided analyzing the situation where I was town. You just asserted that I shouldn't get any credit (which is true) and then noted that my alignment was unverifiable and thus we should mostly ignore that part. And you're still avoiding analyzing that situation. I asked you to explain why you think that I (town celaph) wouldn't act in the way I acted and you totally ignored that part of the point.

3) Your use of pro-scum instead of scummy is bizarre because to accurately apply it requires game knowledge town doesn't have. Voting for scum is obviously a towny action and should merit town credit to some (possible negligible) degree. That is true even if the person voting is scum. All scum votes should advance their win-con and thus be pro-scum and thus we can have votes that are both towny and pro-scum. That is what bussing is.

The thing is that as town, I know what actions are towny and which are scummy. I don't know which are pro-town and which are pro-scum as that requires knowledge of everyone's alignments. So trying to speak of votes as pro/anti-town is nonsense without knowing alignment. You've said why scum would vote the way I did, you haven't said why voting that way is scummy. The difference there is important.

4) Just because you can doesn't mean that you should or that the results you derive from doing so are valid.

[celaph]

Argh, I want to scream but I have no mouth, or something like that. That was a heavy blow.

Surprisingly, that kinda made me suddenly suspicious of ghug, since fox did townread him (post in the night), and ghug likes to do that kind of thing.

But then again, fox is a good player, though did he anywhere let a doc slip happen? Guess he was a N1 candidate anyway. *sigh* Nothings easy, right?

In line with your last paragraph, Fox was my strongest townread and I think the closest to obvtown of anyone. I could totally see scum taking him out just because of that with no PR read.

[celaph]

I have nothing more to say.

I have tried to be cordial but I just get scumread for it.

I scumread Vecna, Worcej, and Kak.

This is my last post.

It appears that Snowy has +1'd this post.